Sherlock's reputation at the beginning of S3

[Caya]

So what do you think will be the general public perception of Sherlock while he's "dead"? Will the accusations stick, and he'll be regarded as a fraud who offed himself when he got caught? Or will the matter blow over even before he returns, and he'll be seen as a tragic victim of a smear campaign?

 

I'd love to hear all your arguments for either case. Personally, I tend towards the latter, because that whole Richard Brook identity package probably won't hold up to any kind of scrutiny (I would have bought Moriarty building a fake actor identity for years, just for such a purpose, but to have done so under that punny name, way before the Reichenbach case?). Also, there are probably lots of thankful clients (Henry Knight, for starters) who know that Sherlock couldn't have been behind their cases and who are going to come forth. Kitty Riley might be in for quite a backlash.

 

As for why Mycroft let Sherlock's deconstruction happen in the first place, that's a different kettle of fish. What do you think? Was he powerless to stop it, did he risk his brother's life for a chance to bring down Moriarty, was it all part of a big master plan of his?

 

 

And since from the filming spoilers for The Empty Hearse it looks rather like Mycroft had a hand in Sherlock's survival as well (that looked too big to have been organized by Molly alone), it seems he knew what was happening all along.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Knowing how human beings can be, there will be some who will believe right up to Sherlock's reveal that he is a fake and a fraud. I can see him going through some kind of time proving that Richard Brook was indeed a front for Moriarty. Of course there is the "Believe in Sherlock Holmes" campaign which a lot of people will gyrate to along with the protestations of Sherlock's clients that he was indeed a genius and a hero and in no wise could they believe that he could have faked their cases.

 

As for Mycroft I generally lean to the thought that he must have had some kind of knowledge of it if he didn't indeed help. He had first hand knowledge of Moriarty and the evidence of him in the "Bond flight" affair and Irene Adler's testimony that it was Moriarty behind her attempt at blackmailing Mycroft and the British government.

 

I think he lied to Moriarty and didn't give him everything that Moriarty wanted on Sherlock. I also think he lied to John when John burst into the Diogenes Club. I think it was mutual decision between the two brothers  that John be protected and so not told what was going on.

 

At the end of "TRF" I think Mycroft is looking sad, but more pensive then actually grieving. He echoes Sherlock pose of setting with his hands pressed together and his chin poised on them. A signature Sherlockian pose. A visual hint? Mofftiss love to through them around.

 

I am so looking forward to seeing what kind of backlash is in store for Kitty Riley.

[bborchar]

It looks like the general perception after Sherlock's "death" is that he was a fraud.  We see a tabloid that Mycroft is reading with the story on the front page, and we also see a BBC news report on John Watson's blog with a reporter speculating that he jumped because he had been caught in his lies (I love the way they cut away from it, I laughed).  I don't believe that his reputation will be restored before reveals he is alive in TEH, but that is my opinion because I have seen no evidence that in the general public's opinion of him is different than how they left it.

 

I believe that Mycroft is in on something, but we don't have enough information to accurately guess as to how he was specifically involved.  I, too, hope Kitty Riley gets her comeuppance (actually, I hope everyone who deserves it does, lol).

 

[Julia Mae]

Knowing how human beings can be, there will be some who will believe right up to Sherlock's reveal that he is a fake and a fraud. I can see him going through some kind of time proving that Richard Brook was indeed a front for Moriarty. Of course there is the "Believe in Sherlock Holmes" campaign which a lot of people will gyrate to along with the protestations of Sherlock's clients that he was indeed a genius and a hero and in no wise could they believe that he could have faked their cases.

 

As for Mycroft I generally lean to the thought that he must have had some kind of knowledge of it if he didn't indeed help. He had first hand knowledge of Moriarty and the evidence of him in the "Bond flight" affair and Irene Adler's testimony that it was Moriarty behind her attempt at blackmailing Mycroft and the British government.

 

I think he lied to Moriarty and didn't give him everything that Moriarty wanted on him. I also think he lied to John when John burst into the Diogenes Club. I think it was mutual decision between the two brothers  that John be protected and so not told what was going on.

 

At the end of "TRF" I think Mycroft is looking sad, but more pensive then actually grieving. He echoes Sherlock pose of setting with his hands pressed together and his chin poised on them. A signature Sherlockian pose. A visual hint? Mofftiss love to through them around.

 

I am so looking forward to seeing what kind of backlash is in store for Kitty Riley.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here.  But I also think that there is only so much time in a 90-minute show and they have so much to do that we'll see a few more newspaper headlines thrown at us to resolve the issue, (Hat-Man is Back!) not leaving us with too much public reaction. Mofftiss have to first get Sherlock back to John and then explain how he survived the fall and then have the adventure of the episode, whatever that is. 

 

I'm wondering if they are going to bring the Sherlock/police relationship into line with the Canon.  In which case, Sherlock works with Lestrade very quietly and Lestrade always takes the credit, Sherlock is never mentioned.  But maybe that's not practical in a modern world of flash-news and mobiles at the ready.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I would have bought Moriarty building a fake actor identity for years, just for such a purpose, but to have done so under that punny name, way before the Reichenbach case?

I agreed with you when I first read this, but now I'm thinking, why not? After all, why couldn't he have set Sherlock up to become "The Reichenbach Hero," by arranging for the painting to be stolen in the first place?

[bborchar]

Moriarty had at least three months to set up his master plan, and he would have definitely been watching Sherlock's cases. He could have easily rigged up a fake identity as an actor in that timeframe. He just needs to pull the right strings and threaten the right people. I don't think Sherlock actually wants people to think he was telling the truth, because it might put his friends in danger until he can take care of business.

[Caya]

It looks like the general perception after Sherlock's "death" is that he was a fraud.  We see a tabloid that Mycroft is reading with the story on the front page, and we also see a BBC news report on John Watson's blog with a reporter speculating that he jumped because he had been caught in his lies (I love the way they cut away from it, I laughed).  I don't believe that his reputation will be restored before reveals he is alive in TEH, but that is my opinion because I have seen no evidence that in the general public's opinion of him is different than how they left it.

 

I believe that Mycroft is in on something, but we don't have enough information to accurately guess as to how he was specifically involved.  I, too, hope Kitty Riley gets her comeuppance (actually, I hope everyone who deserves it does, lol).

 

That BBC news report was just after Sherlock jumped, which was, I'm not sure about this, the day that Kitty Reily piece came out or the day afterwards, way too early for any reaction by his friends/fans/rival newspapers. Wasn't it the Saturday edition or something? I'd bet Monday's newspapers were full of furious interviews with Henry Knight/Angelo/etc., poking holes in Kitty Reily's story and laying the blame for a good man's death at her door (to their knowledge, her article must have been why he jumped).

 

 

I would have bought Moriarty building a fake actor identity for years, just for such a purpose, but to have done so under that punny name, way before the Reichenbach case?

I agreed with you when I first read this, but now I'm thinking, why not? After all, why couldn't he have set Sherlock up to become "The Reichenbach Hero," by arranging for the painting to be stolen in the first place?

 

 

Sounds like something he could (and likely would) do, true - but how could he have predicted that this was the case that would make Sherlock famous? Recovering a picture isn't all that hero-worthy compared to other cases he solved, after all.

[bborchar]

I doubt many people were trying to prove Riley wrong - and those who were just would have been called conspiracy theorists (ie: who shot JFK?). And the for every person giving a good opinion of Sherlock, there were probably several giving a bad opinion of him (really, does someone believe the best friend of an accused serial killer?). And what might happen if people pry too much? Then they could possibly find out that Sherlock is alive, and he doesn't want that until his friends are completely out of danger and he takes care of Moriarty's web. The people who helped Sherlock survive have an apparently very good reason not to tell (money, blackmail, working for someone with influence, etc).

[Caya]

Granted, I'm not from the UK (calling all British expert witnesses to the thread :brit: ) but it wasn't my impression that when The Sun publishes a controversial story, everybody just accepts it at face value.

 

And while Molly will certainly keep mum and Mycroft will be very deliberate about what information appears and where, I don't think the same holds true for the people who genuinely think Sherlock's dead ... John might be to devastated (and won't be seen as a neutral party anyway), but I bet there's quite a few Angelos out there who won't shut up to anyone who'll listen (and reporters from rival newspapers *are* going to listen) about how great he was.

[Julia Mae]

W also might consider the return of Irene Adler whom Moriarty coached  thoroughly in how to extort money from the British government and use Sherlock to, essentially, betray his country.  (Though not meaning to.)  Sherlock hardly hired Jim in order to harm himself. I still don't think they'll spend much time on this, I hope they are spending more time on repairing his relationship with John. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't think Sherlock actually wants people to think he was telling the truth, because it might put his friends in danger until he can take care of business.

Yes, I think so too, and it worries me that John (judging by his online blog) is ignoring Sherlock's explicit instructions to spread the work that he was a fake. Even if he couldn't bring himself to say "Sherlock was a fake," if he realized it was important, he could surely have said "Sherlock told me he was a fake" -- because that's the absolute truth.

 

 

Sounds like something he could (and likely would) do, true - but how could he have predicted that this was the case that would make Sherlock famous? Recovering a picture isn't all that hero-worthy compared to other cases he solved, after all.

When you're Jim Moriarty, you don't need to predict what's going to happen -- you make it happen.

[bborchar]

Granted, I'm not from the UK (calling all British expert witnesses to the thread :brit: ) but it wasn't my impression that when The Sun publishes a controversial story, everybody just accepts it at face value.

 

And while Molly will certainly keep mum and Mycroft will be very deliberate about what information appears and where, I don't think the same holds true for the people who genuinely think Sherlock's dead ... John might be to devastated (and won't be seen as a neutral party anyway), but I bet there's quite a few Angelos out there who won't shut up to anyone who'll listen (and reporters from rival newspapers *are* going to listen) about how great he was.

 

Yes, but the BBC reported it, as well.  They are a legitimate news outlet.  And people will say he's great, but they are considered friends of Sherlock, and the public usually doesn't pay much attention to that.   And while there would be someone like Angelo vouching for Sherlock, there would also be cops who DIDN'T like him at all, and people put more weight on a policeman's word.  I"m sure several news outlets reported his suicide, and f you are judged guilty in the news, that's pretty much all it takes to convince people you are guilty- even if you are cleared in a court of law.  Do people actually think that OJ didn't kill his wife or Casey Anthony didn't kill her daughter?  They were cleared in the court of law, but not the court of public opinion.  And since Sherlock is believed to be dead, people aren't going to look into very much because there's no one to exonerate or crucify.  The fact that he committed suicide is a huge red flag to everyone.  The public's perception will be that innocent people don't become fugitives from the law then kill themselves- unless they have something to hide.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 I"m sure several news outlets reported his suicide, and f you are judged guilty in the news, that's pretty much all it takes to convince people you are guilty- even if you are cleared in a court of law.  Do people actually think that OJ didn't kill his wife or Casey Anthony didn't kill her daughter?  They were cleared in the court of law, but not the court of public opinion.  And since Sherlock is believed to be dead, people aren't going to look into very much because there's no one to exonerate or crucify.  The fact that he committed suicide is a huge red flag to everyone.  The public's perception will be that innocent people don't become fugitives from the law then kill themselves- unless they have something to hide.

You've pretty much nailed it, bborchar. According to Mr. Gatiss in a very early on spoiler that Sherlock is going to be 'invisible" in the first episode of Season 3. Which is pretty much canon. Sherlock Holmes confronts Dr. John H. Watson in disguise in the Adair Case. Sherlock tells him that he had just returned to Baker Street that afternoon. But how much of that is dissembling? Of course in canon Holmes' reputation wasn't in question as it is here.

 

There are people who will believe the worst of someone, no matter what the truth is and no matter how strong the evidence to the contrary. As stated above they only have 90 minutes to clear things up, so there might have been some stuff going on in the wings that we may or may not learn about in the attempts to get his name cleared.

[Caya]

Ugh, I just rewatched that BBC piece - I had forgotten just how brutal that one is (when I saw it the first time, it was so soon after TRF that I was still kinda numb from shock).

 

But if that remains the (largely) unquestioned public narrative until S3, that poses another question: how will the public perception of Sherlock change?

 

 

And change it does, as far as one can see in the London filming spoilers of S3E1 on youtube ... the reporters seem fairly benign, and Sherlock talks to them in what, for him, is an amazingly relaxed state while being beset by a crowd.

 

 

Somehow I don't think that the mere fact that he's alive is gonna fly. So the Great Fake faked his own death, too ... how's that going to convince the public?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Somehow I don't think that the mere fact that he's alive is gonna fly. So the Great Fake faked his own death, too ... how's that going to convince the public?

Not unless they seriously gloss things over, but I really can't see Moffat and Gatiss doing that. Something has to happen to make Sherlock's return from his hiatus as big a news item as his supposed suicide. Something that blasts the Moriarty connection and reality wide open in a big way.

[Julia Mae]

 

Somehow I don't think that the mere fact that he's alive is gonna fly. So the Great Fake faked his own death, too ... how's that going to convince the public?

Not unless they seriously gloss things over, but I really can't see Moffat and Gatiss doing that. Something has to happen to make Sherlock's return from his hiatus as big a news item as his supposed suicide. Something that blasts the Moriarty connection and reality wide open in a big way.

 

 

In the Canon, in "The Final Problem," the police are set for this huge round-up of Moriarty henchmen in a few days time, when Homes and Watson take off for the continent.  There's no big round-up in "The Empty House," but they could pull that feature from one story onto this one and that would be the opportunity for the Home Office to announce Sherlock was working for them all along and is the reason for the massive arrests they make. 

 

I think the bad publicity can be overcome if an official source validates Sherlock, just as in the past the police refused to confirm he was working with them to the press would contribute to the doubt.  

 

[bborchar]

Ugh, I just rewatched that BBC piece - I had forgotten just how brutal that one is (when I saw it the first time, it was so soon after TRF that I was still kinda numb from shock).

 

But if that remains the (largely) unquestioned public narrative until S3, that poses another question: how will the public perception of Sherlock change?

 

 

And change it does, as far as one can see in the London filming spoilers of S3E1 on youtube ... the reporters seem fairly benign, and Sherlock talks to them in what, for him, is an amazingly relaxed state while being beset by a crowd.

 

 

Somehow I don't think that the mere fact that he's alive is gonna fly. So the Great Fake faked his own death, too ... how's that going to convince the public?

 

I think that the exchange on the roof is filmed or recorded somehow.  What better evidence than Moriarty's own confession on the roof?  Sherlock gets him to admit everything up there.  I just don't see how he exonerates himself without Moriarty's confession and Moriarty's body to prove that he committed suicide.

[Caya]

 

I think that the exchange on the roof is filmed or recorded somehow.  What better evidence than Moriarty's own confession on the roof?  Sherlock gets him to admit everything up there.  I just don't see how he exonerates himself without Moriarty's confession and Moriarty's body to prove that he committed suicide.

 

Oooh, that's a brilliant thought! Not many places on that barren roof to hide recording equipment though, and Moriarty's quite perceptive, too. Maybe Sherlock was wired with some high-tech stuff ... which would point to Mycroft, again, I guess.

[bborchar]

 

 

I think that the exchange on the roof is filmed or recorded somehow.  What better evidence than Moriarty's own confession on the roof?  Sherlock gets him to admit everything up there.  I just don't see how he exonerates himself without Moriarty's confession and Moriarty's body to prove that he committed suicide.

 

Oooh, that's a brilliant thought! Not many places on that barren roof to hide recording equipment though, and Moriarty's quite perceptive, too. Maybe Sherlock was wired with some high-tech stuff ... which would point to Mycroft, again, I guess.

 

 

Well, we also see earlier in the episode that Sherlock finds the wireless spy cam in his room and hacks it.  It's so small that it could fit anywhere on the roof.  You can stream a wireless camera's video to a computer OR a smartphone.  Maybe he recorded the film via his smartphone (which would make sense as to why he left his phone on the roof so as to not get damaged in the fall), and the camera is so small that Moriarty would never see it if put in the proper place.

[Caya]

 

Well, we also see earlier in the episode that Sherlock finds the wireless spy cam in his room and hacks it.  It's so small that it could fit anywhere on the roof.  You can stream a wireless camera's video to a computer OR a smartphone.  Maybe he recorded the film via his smartphone (which would make sense as to why he left his phone on the roof so as to not get damaged in the fall), and the camera is so small that Moriarty would never see it if put in the proper place.

 

Yes, yes, yes ... that makes so much sense, bborchar . And when Sherlock asked Moriarty for and received that moment of privacy, there was this little sound that I thought was a mobile being opened or closed, which would fit nicely (Sherlock would probably want to stop the recording before the whole Not An Angel spiel). Whoever picked up Moriarty's corpse (signs again point to Mycroft) then would have secured the phone, too.

[bborchar]

 

 

Well, we also see earlier in the episode that Sherlock finds the wireless spy cam in his room and hacks it.  It's so small that it could fit anywhere on the roof.  You can stream a wireless camera's video to a computer OR a smartphone.  Maybe he recorded the film via his smartphone (which would make sense as to why he left his phone on the roof so as to not get damaged in the fall), and the camera is so small that Moriarty would never see it if put in the proper place.

 

Yes, yes, yes ... that makes so much sense, bborchar . And when Sherlock asked Moriarty for and received that moment of privacy, there was this little sound that I thought was a mobile being opened or closed, which would fit nicely (Sherlock would probably want to stop the recording before the whole Not An Angel spiel). Whoever picked up Moriarty's corpse (signs again point to Mycroft) then would have secured the phone, too.

 

 

I haven't heard this, but I'll check it out.  I could be entirely wrong about this, and I wouldn't be surprised at all.  I'm just trying to connect some dots that aren't entirely clear

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

A recording would make a whole lot of sense. And since Sherlock picked the time and place, he had more then enough time to set up a wire as well. Brilliant indeed.

[bborchar]

Exactly- the only way he can prove to the world that Moriarty made the whole thing up is by using Moriarty's own confession to incriminate himself and absolve Sherlock.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And Sherlock, being a criminologist, would know that better than anyone.

[IQ192]

I think everyone that mattered already knew Moriarty was guilty of the crimes  , the Judge at the trial even ordered the jury to find him guilty .
There was obv. film footage of him breaking into the crown jewels at the tower too.
So really no more evidence of his crimes is necessary , not that there will be any kind of trial .
Once Moriarty is dead the jurors would prob confess anyway .

So the only Q is Sherlock's  reputation in the media , which was being manipulated by Moriarty via Kitty Riley .
Surely during Sherlock's hiatus a lot of people came forward with story's of his amazing deductions ?
Either way i am sure Mycroft will have the press under control.
I do think they they will need to restore Sherlock's reputation somehow in order for him to get interesting cases and clients in future episodes.

Perhaps Kitty's penance will be to write the retraction , and an  apology , and generally make a big media fuss and fool of herself with the headline going something like  ~ How Moriarty Fooled  Me.

As for NSY  ~ Likely some sort of official enquiry would of been necessary ? 

Funny if at the public report, they all got a text  ,,,,,, Wrong! - SH .