Jump to content




Welcome to Sherlock Forum


Sign In  Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter

Create Account
You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which gives you limited access, you will need to create an account in order to reply to topics and create topics of your own.
Signing up is quick, easy and FREE, just click on the "Create Account" button to begin. You will need a valid email address in order to sign up, but this will only be used to send you notifications the receipt of which you can customise at any time.

We hope you enjoy your time here!
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

"BBC Sherlock" articles & other miscellany

Sherlock Benedict Cumberbatch Martin Freeman villains Magnussen Moriarty

  • Please log in to reply
769 replies to this topic

#1 sfmpco

sfmpco

    Consulting Detective

  • 4,891 posts
  • Facebook Facebook
  • LocationSan Gabriel, CA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 06 December 2014 - 07:34 PM

I'm starting this thread for general articles about episodes that are summaries.  Like this one:

 

http://www.cultbox.c...erlock-villains

 

 


Edited by Carol the Dabbler, 23 November 2015 - 04:37 PM.
This thread seems to have evolved into a home for any and all BBC-Sherlock-related miscellany, so I have renamed it accordingly

  • SherlockedCAMPer likes this

People were talking.  None of them me.  I must have filtered.

 


#2 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Consulting Detective

  • 15,156 posts
  • LocationUSA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 07 December 2014 - 10:09 PM

That one amused me because they didn't exactly have many villains to choose from.....


  • sittything likes this
It's this, or Cluedo.

#3 sfmpco

sfmpco

    Consulting Detective

  • 4,891 posts
  • Facebook Facebook
  • LocationSan Gabriel, CA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 07 December 2014 - 11:43 PM

That one amused me because they didn't exactly have many villains to choose from.....

 

Also, since Sherlock and John and obviously someone reconciled the shooting incident, I don't feel like Mary is so much of a villain.  Never did anyhow.


  • Arcadia and sittything like this

People were talking.  None of them me.  I must have filtered.

 


#4 Bendydoodle Cantaloupe

Bendydoodle Cantaloupe

    Consulting Detective

  • 1,611 posts
  • Twitter @UnoffishaMisha
  • Locationthe deepest depths of a closet in michigan
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow

Posted 07 December 2014 - 11:49 PM

I think Mary shot Sherlock because she felt cornered by him and Magnussen, and because she didn't have a Plan B if Plan A (Kill Magnussen) didn't work.


  • Carol the Dabbler, Arcadia and sittything like this

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ Don' t sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. ~George Carlin ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

*AO3*    SH  -  JW  -  JM x    *dA* 


#5 SherlockedCAMPer

SherlockedCAMPer

    Consulting Detective

  • 5,095 posts
  • Twitter @4himccm
  • LocationMN, USA: Land of the frozen til summer then we melt ;)
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Empty Hearse
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 07 December 2014 - 11:51 PM

I think Mary shot Sherlock because she felt cornered by him and Magnussen, and because she didn't have a Plan B if Plan A (Kill Magnussen) didn't work.


Agreed. She was stuck between a rock and a hard place. She did the first thing that came to mind since her plan got interrupted.
  • sfmpco and sittything like this

"Killing me is so 2 years ago."  "I'm a high-functioning sociopath! Do your research!" -Sherlock (This explains so much of what goes through my head but never comes out.) "Should I be impressed?" -Wenceslas S1.3  ~Jenn, Jenny, or Jennifer, not Jen (there's a story to this besides being inspired by Louise)


#6 sfmpco

sfmpco

    Consulting Detective

  • 4,891 posts
  • Facebook Facebook
  • LocationSan Gabriel, CA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 07 December 2014 - 11:57 PM

Interesting that they didn't mention Moran.  Even though Moran had no lines (the actor didn't even get a credit at the end), he was still a villain in TEH.  And since (presumably) he is in prison, that doesn't negate his return someday.  We might not have seen the last of him.  

 

Really, Mary should not have been included on the list at all.  Moriarty, on the other hand, could have filled half the villain spots by himself!


  • Arcadia, SherlockedCAMPer and jadpdr like this

People were talking.  None of them me.  I must have filtered.

 


#7 Bendydoodle Cantaloupe

Bendydoodle Cantaloupe

    Consulting Detective

  • 1,611 posts
  • Twitter @UnoffishaMisha
  • Locationthe deepest depths of a closet in michigan
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow

Posted 08 December 2014 - 12:10 AM

Nah! Magnussen is the worst!


  • Boton, sittything and jadpdr like this

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ Don' t sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. ~George Carlin ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

*AO3*    SH  -  JW  -  JM x    *dA* 


#8 sfmpco

sfmpco

    Consulting Detective

  • 4,891 posts
  • Facebook Facebook
  • LocationSan Gabriel, CA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 08 December 2014 - 12:31 AM

Nah! Magnussen is the worst!

 

definitely the creepiest!


  • jadpdr likes this

People were talking.  None of them me.  I must have filtered.

 


#9 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Consulting Detective

  • 15,156 posts
  • LocationUSA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:04 AM

CAM is the creepiest but Moriarty did the most harm. I vote for them in the top two spots and forget the rest. :smile:


  • sfmpco, SherlockedCAMPer and jadpdr like this
It's this, or Cluedo.

#10 SherlockedCAMPer

SherlockedCAMPer

    Consulting Detective

  • 5,095 posts
  • Twitter @4himccm
  • LocationMN, USA: Land of the frozen til summer then we melt ;)
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Empty Hearse
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 08 December 2014 - 03:50 AM

CAM is the creepiest but Moriarty did the most harm. I vote for them in the top two spots and forget the rest. :smile:

 

Agreed CAM is the creepiest.  I would have switched Irene and him around for position definitely.  She used people for her protection, not necessarily to cause them harm even though she was in league with Moriarty.

 

Also with Mary being on the list, I'd put her at number 5 not 4.  She was stuck between a rock & a hard place and was a trained secret agaent taking out someone who needed to be taken care of per someone's orders that may not have been completely of her own doing.  (which gets me thinking of a possibility [far fetched as it may be] that she could be part of Moriarty's network in some capacity, even if it is unintentional, & that Moriarty's network was behind her hit on CAM.)


  • sfmpco likes this

"Killing me is so 2 years ago."  "I'm a high-functioning sociopath! Do your research!" -Sherlock (This explains so much of what goes through my head but never comes out.) "Should I be impressed?" -Wenceslas S1.3  ~Jenn, Jenny, or Jennifer, not Jen (there's a story to this besides being inspired by Louise)


#11 Bendydoodle Cantaloupe

Bendydoodle Cantaloupe

    Consulting Detective

  • 1,611 posts
  • Twitter @UnoffishaMisha
  • Locationthe deepest depths of a closet in michigan
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow

Posted 08 December 2014 - 08:30 PM

CAM is the creepiest but Moriarty did the most harm. I vote for them in the top two spots and forget the rest. :smile:

 

Awwww, but Moriarty's so adorrrrableeee!!!

 

 

tumblr_n6cjldi3Zl1rzik3go1_500.gif


  • Arcadia, SherlockedCAMPer, sittything and 1 other like this

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ Don' t sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. ~George Carlin ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

*AO3*    SH  -  JW  -  JM x    *dA* 


#12 T.o.b.y

T.o.b.y

    Consulting Detective

  • 5,528 posts
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 08 December 2014 - 11:18 PM

Moriarty is not adorable. Moriarty gives me the shivers. I think he's very frightening.

 

Mary is not a villain. The villain of series 3 was Magnussen. What's so villainous about Mary? I don't understand (and I want that t-shirt).

 

Neither is Irene Adler a villain. Antagonist, yes. Villain, no. In my humble opinion.


  • Carol the Dabbler, Arcadia, sfmpco and 2 others like this
"All lives end - all hearts are broken" / "The East Wind takes us all in the end"

#13 sittything

sittything

    Consulting Detective

  • 2,631 posts
  • LocationUSA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Empty Hearse

Posted 08 December 2014 - 11:42 PM

I most definitely would not include Irene and Mary as villains.

 

 


Howling ghosts: they reappear
In mountains that are stacked with fear,
But you're a king and I'm a lionheart.

 

("King and Lionheart," Of Monsters and Men)


#14 Carol the Dabbler

Carol the Dabbler

    Consulting Detective

  • 17,178 posts
  • LocationIndiana, USA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Abominable Bride

Posted 09 December 2014 - 01:33 AM

Me neither.  (And I do think that Moriarty is adorable -- sometimes.  Other times, not so much.)

 

Mary is not a villain. The villain of series 3 was Magnussen. What's so villainous about Mary? I don't understand (and I want that t-shirt).

 

Neither is Irene Adler a villain. Antagonist, yes. Villain, no. In my humble opinion.

 

I suspect that some people do not grasp the distinction between antagonist and villain (which may explain the current vilification of political opponents).  Or else they choose to ignore it for the sake of a more dramatic headline.

 

We do not yet know enough about Mary's past to have an informed opinion regarding whether or not she's a villain, but she did claim to fear that she could be put in jail for the rest of her life.  And Irene did attempt to bankrupt the British Government.  That presumably qualifies each of them as some sort of criminal -- but I don't consider that to be synonymous with villain either.

 

What I really don't understand is why Mycroft didn't just go ahead and destroy the damned camera phone.

 


  • Arcadia, Bendydoodle Cantaloupe and jadpdr like this

-- Carol

 


#15 sfmpco

sfmpco

    Consulting Detective

  • 4,891 posts
  • Facebook Facebook
  • LocationSan Gabriel, CA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 09 December 2014 - 01:55 AM

Me neither.  (And I do think that Moriarty is adorable -- sometimes.  Other times, not so much.)

 

Mary is not a villain. The villain of series 3 was Magnussen. What's so villainous about Mary? I don't understand (and I want that t-shirt).

 

Neither is Irene Adler a villain. Antagonist, yes. Villain, no. In my humble opinion.

 

I suspect that some people do not grasp the distinction between antagonist and villain (which may explain the current vilification of political opponents).  Or else they choose to ignore it for the sake of a more dramatic headline.

 

We do not yet know enough about Mary's past to have an informed opinion regarding whether or not she's a villain, but she did claim to fear that she could be put in jail for the rest of her life.  And Irene did attempt to bankrupt the British Government.  That presumably qualifies each of them as some sort of criminal -- but I don't consider that to be synonymous with villain either.

 

What I really don't understand is why Mycroft didn't just go ahead and destroy the damned camera phone.

 

Well, the camera phone was wiped clean, and then it was, after all, an extraordinarily expensive phone (5 figures I've read), so not entirely disposable.  Besides, if he had destroyed it, we wouldn't have had that sentimental moment with Sherlock and the phone.


  • jadpdr likes this

People were talking.  None of them me.  I must have filtered.

 


#16 Carol the Dabbler

Carol the Dabbler

    Consulting Detective

  • 17,178 posts
  • LocationIndiana, USA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Abominable Bride

Posted 09 December 2014 - 02:10 AM

Yes, but the phone wasn't (and presumably couldn't be) wiped until after Sherlock gave Mycroft access to the information on it.  Sorry, I should have made it clear that I meant I don't understand why Mycroft ever let Irene blackmail him, why didn't he just destroy the phone in the first place?

 


  • jadpdr likes this

-- Carol

 


#17 sfmpco

sfmpco

    Consulting Detective

  • 4,891 posts
  • Facebook Facebook
  • LocationSan Gabriel, CA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 09 December 2014 - 05:27 AM

Well, I think because there were possibly lives of British citizens at stake, according to Irene.  It could have been a lie, but I don't think Mycroft was willing to take that chance.


  • Boton likes this

People were talking.  None of them me.  I must have filtered.

 


#18 T.o.b.y

T.o.b.y

    Consulting Detective

  • 5,528 posts
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 09 December 2014 - 05:29 AM

Yes, but the phone wasn't (and presumably couldn't be) wiped until after Sherlock gave Mycroft access to the information on it.  Sorry, I should have made it clear that I meant I don't understand why Mycroft ever let Irene blackmail him, why didn't he just destroy the phone in the first place?

 

Because Irene told him that lives of British citizens might depend on information that she had on the thing. When Mycroft raised his eyebrows at that, she only replied "take that risk", and apparently, he did not want to. Besides, I think he wanted a lot of the stuff she had for himself.

 

I found the following definition of "villain" at http://dictionary.re...browse/villain:

 

 
1.) a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
2.) a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.

 

 

I have always understood a villain as a character who does evil for evil's sake. It's a theoretical fictional concept, if you ask me, just like the traditional hero. I don't believe in villains in real life.

 
An antagonist, on the other hand, is simply a character who works against the protagonist:

 

1.) a person who is opposed to, struggles against, or competes with another; opponent; adversary.

2.) the adversary of the hero or protagonist of a drama or other literary work

 

I much prefer antagonists to villains. A story is just so much more interesting to me when there are other motivators at work than just "good" and "evil". Note also that "antagonist" and "protagonist" depend entirely on point of view and are interchangeable, while "hero" and "villain" are not.

 

I think Mary fits neither of these descriptions. She's not evil per se (not as far as we know), nor intent on promoting evil. And she does not work against Sherlock, she's not his enemy. I'd say she was mostly on his side (or rather, he is on hers).

 

 


  • Carol the Dabbler, Arcadia, sfmpco and 2 others like this
"All lives end - all hearts are broken" / "The East Wind takes us all in the end"

#19 Carol the Dabbler

Carol the Dabbler

    Consulting Detective

  • 17,178 posts
  • LocationIndiana, USA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Abominable Bride

Posted 09 December 2014 - 03:24 PM

Well, I think because there were possibly lives of British citizens at stake, according to Irene.  It could have been a lie, but I don't think Mycroft was willing to take that chance.

 

But in what sense could that have been true?

 

If the phone contained information that would have saved their lives, would Irene have divulged it?  We saw no evidence whatsoever of any public-spiritedness on her part.  She was out for herself, pure and simple -- not saying there's anything wrong with that, just that she's clearly not the sort of person you'd want to rely on for help.

 

If, on the other hand, the phone contained information that would have put their lives in danger -- well, then, just as well to destroy it, right?


-- Carol

 


#20 Bendydoodle Cantaloupe

Bendydoodle Cantaloupe

    Consulting Detective

  • 1,611 posts
  • Twitter @UnoffishaMisha
  • Locationthe deepest depths of a closet in michigan
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow

Posted 09 December 2014 - 08:08 PM

Moriarty is not adorable. Moriarty gives me the shivers. I think he's very frightening.

 

tumblr_mcq2asAJJk1ro5p10o1_500.gif


  • SherlockedCAMPer likes this

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ Don' t sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. ~George Carlin ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

*AO3*    SH  -  JW  -  JM x    *dA* 






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Sherlock, Benedict Cumberbatch, Martin Freeman, villains, Magnussen, Moriarty