Jack the Ripper & the Whitechapel Murders

[Carol the Dabbler]

There was an excellent television series with Maury Chaykin as Nero Wolfe and Timothy Hutton as Archie Goodwin.  Other than Archie having a strong East-Coast accent (when the books say he's from Ohio), Alex and I liked it so much that we bought the DVDs.

[HerlockSholmes]

There was an excellent television series with Maury Chaykin as Nero Wolfe and Timothy Hutton as Archie Goodwin. Other than Archie having a strong East-Coast accent (when the books say he's from Ohio), Alex and I liked it so much that we bought the DVDs.

I’ve seen 3 or 4 of them Carol. You’re right, they were excellent. Didn’t Maury Chaykin die?

 

I also noticed that there was a series with William Conrad playing Wolfe. I remember him as Cannon when I was a kid.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't know whether Chaykin is still living or not. (You may be thinking of Thayer David, who played Wolfe in what was supposed to be a pilot but then died.) The Chaykin series was cancelled by its network (A&E) -- even though it was their top-rated show! -- because they wanted to switch their emphasis from "Arts & Entertainment" to reality programming. Bleh.

 

Added: Chaykin died in 2010, eight years after the series was cancelled.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, by the way, it looks like a whole bunch of the A&E Nero Wolfe episodes are on YouTube.

[HerlockSholmes]

I’ve watched a few Carol and really liked them.

[Van Buren Supernova]

It would be awesome if modern DNA analysis could nab the Ripper. But it's got to be impossible. Even if it had been possible to preserve the remains of the victims/potential DNA samples for future study, anything would be far too degraded after nearly 120 years. Jack may have left DNA traces on or in the victims but I'm guessing not.

I'm not familiar with his cases, what about murder weapons? I've read before about old case being solved from a murder weapon although nothing is close to 120 years.

You are right, whatever evidences, it would be difficult to have solid conviction. It's not totally impossible though, just very unlikely. Unlessss.. we find away to travel or see through time. :p

 

I doubt he would have had sex with them prior to killing them. He worked really fast, and since he was so 'down on whores' he wouldn't have been interested in the 'business end' of their anatomies. Was Jack impotent? Had he been given a disease by a previous dalliance with a prostitute? Did he have a prostitute mother who abused or neglected him? Was this a perverted exercise of religious 'cleansing'? We will never know why Jack was so down on whores.

Or, he was just a 'regular' killer but calculated. Who would be easy target? Who were likely to wander around at night alone and more acceptive to approaching stranger? Who wouldn't be missed when they didn't return until the next day? Who were more likely to be spotted with various strangers without raising suspicion? Who would be perceived as easier target in term of easier to dominate physically? And last, who were less likely to prompt throughout investigation driven by grieving or powerful family?

It is sad though.

[HerlockSholmes]

There are no weapons that survive VB. The ripper left us nothing I’m afraid so dna is pretty useless in this case (though Russell Edwards would disagree.)

 

Overwhelmingly the likeliest is that Jack the Ripper has yet to be named a probably never will. One author once, at the end of his book, wrote something like ‘on the day of judgement, when everything is known, someone will say “will the real Jack The Ripper identify himself,” and when ho does, hundreds of Ripperologist s will turn and look at each other and say “who?”

 

He was probably some insignificant Butcher’s assistant from Bethnal Green or a mousy little market porter from Stepney.

[HerlockSholmes]

Hikari,

 

I’ve just finished Black Dahlia Red Rose by Piu Eatwell.

 

I think that this is as near to game over as we are likely to get after all these years.

 

- a guy who offers to help because he believes that his ‘friend’ was the Dahlia killer.

- he expresses an interest in sexual sadism.

- he names two things about Elizabeth Short’s corpse that hadn’t been made public before.

- he knew Short.

- his surname initial was carved into Short’s corpse.

- around half a dozen people named a motel room that was discovered to be like a charnel house of blood and faeces just before Short’s body was found. The suspect was identified as being there at the time.

 

Well worth a read.

[Hikari]

Thanks for the review, HS.  We do not have this title yet at my library.  It may be on order just not catalogued yet as it's just over a month old.  Definitely sounds intriguing.

 

James Ellroy did a book treatment that became a film starring Josh Hartnett, Aaron Eckhart and Scarlett Johannson.  (2006)  Mia Kirschner appears in a number of scenes as Elizabeth Short, presumably talking to/performing for a casting director in intimate asides directly to camera.  Those were the best part of the movie.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Overwhelmingly the likeliest is that Jack the Ripper has yet to be named a probably never will. One author once, at the end of his book, wrote something like ‘on the day of judgement, when everything is known, someone will say “will the real Jack The Ripper identify himself,” and when ho does, hundreds of Ripperologist s will turn and look at each other and say “who?”

 

I wouldn't be surprised.

Those serial killers are, scarily, the ones who most probably wouldn't get caught.

 

Those who gloat, getting too arrogant and crave for recognition are much more likely to be nabbed. 

Publishing details in stories, articles, brag about them, flying too close to the sun..

 

Anyway, you guys know about Granny Ripper, if I remember correctly, from Russia? 

No relation, it's just chilling imagining that a frail old lady is capable of doing such things.

[Arcadia]

No, I never heard of her, so of course I had to google her, and now I have heard of her ... and I can't say I'm happier for knowing. Good grief, VBS, how do you pick up this stuff!!?!???! And why do you have to share it!??! Ewww!

 

(And if that doesn't make everyone else go and google-fu her, nothing will.... :p)

[Van Buren Supernova]

It always starts as me reading something innocent, then curiosity picks up and leads me to other things, and other things...and other things....

Unrelated with what I read though, just couple of days ago, I think I have a very solid way to contribute to Let's Play Murder thread, a perfect murder scenario XD!

But nobody wants to play...

 

P.S. Please testify that I am actually a sweet innocent person should someone decides to have a character check on me. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think I have a very solid way to contribute to Let's Play Murder thread, a perfect murder scenario XD!

But nobody wants to play...

 

Post it and they will come....

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

Post it and they will come....

I belive they haven't come since the last time I posted. :p

[Carol the Dabbler]

[Arcadia]

P.S. Please testify that I am actually a sweet innocent person should someone decides to have a character check on me.

What?! And perjure myself?

[Arcadia]

 

Post it and they will come....

I belive they haven't come since the last time I posted. :P

 

Good grief, child, the lasted time you posted in there was March of last year! Try again, maybe Bendy will come back and play with you. Or maybe one of the new folk. Maybe even me....

[Van Buren Supernova]

That emoji always proves to me how happy you guys are at my misery!

 

 

 

P.S. Please testify that I am actually a sweet innocent person should someone decides to have a character check on me.

What?! And perjure myself?

 

EH! 

 

 

 

Post it and they will come....

I belive they haven't come since the last time I posted. :P

 

Good grief, child, the lasted time you posted in there was March of last year! Try again, maybe Bendy will come back and play with you. Or maybe one of the new folk. Maybe even me....

 

Nope. My heart is broken once, I no longer trust you.

As the result, I will spread my terror and murder plans everywhere else. Bahahaha..

Anyway, you hijack the thread! Get her, Herlock!

 

 

back to the ripper, what about some suspicion that the killer could be a woman?

[HerlockSholmes]

As far back as the 30’s. William Stewart’s book ‘A New Theory’ pretty much started what’s become known as the Jill the Ripper theory. A crazed midwife was the suggestion. An excuse to be covered in blood, unlikely to be suspected because she’s a woman, easy access to vulnerable women etc .Not very believable.

The killer Mary Pearcey has been suggested as a possible ripper.

Also there was a recent book suggesting Lizzie Williams as the ripper. She was the wife of a physician called Sir John Williams (also a ripper suspect)

The vast majority believe that Jack was a man though.

[Van Buren Supernova]

It's interesting speculation though. And if I'm not wrong, our own Arthur Conan Doyle also gave out theory of Jill the Ripper.

 

I think the most improbable theory is the one that said the removal of the body parts were done in morgue, not at the crime scene because it's dark and the time spans were too short (except if the killer is experienced surgeon).

 

I believe around that time, it would be more possible if the whole body was stolen from the morgue instead of just body part removal. Cadavers were valuable and highly demanded for medical practice. Gasp, how if the killer killed because he was a medical student who need practice but had difficulty finding cadavers?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Now that's a thought...

 

At that time, as you say, cadavers were in great demand by medical schools, but (at least over here in the US) there was no legal way to procure them, so the most common suppliers were grave robbers. Perhaps "Jack" was just cutting out the middle man and supplying his own.

[HerlockSholmes]

Coroner Wynn Baxter felt that the ripper’s purpose could have been the acquisition of body parts. There was a story doing the rounds that an American wanted body parts for research. This has led some to wonder if this American could have been ripper suspect Francis Tumblety. Personally I don’t think that Tumblety was the ripper but he has to be considered as one of the few genuine suspects (and there aren’t many.) Only because the police were interested in him at the time. It’s likely though that he was in police custody (for indecent acts with men) at the time of MJK’s murder.

[HerlockSholmes]

It's interesting speculation though. And if I'm not wrong, our own Arthur Conan Doyle also gave out theory of Jill the Ripper.

 

I think the most improbable theory is the one that said the removal of the body parts were done in morgue, not at the crime scene because it's dark and the time spans were too short (except if the killer is experienced surgeon).

 

I believe around that time, it would be more possible if the whole body was stolen from the morgue instead of just body part removal. Cadavers were valuable and highly demanded for medical practice. Gasp, how if the killer killed because he was a medical student who need practice but had difficulty finding cadavers?

Doyle did suggest a Jill the Ripper (he may even have suggested a man dressed as a woman.) There are very few today though who feel that the killer was a woman.

[Hikari]

Now that's a thought...

 

At that time, as you say, cadavers were in great demand by medical schools, but (at least over here in the US) there was no legal way to procure them, so the most common suppliers were grave robbers. Perhaps "Jack" was just cutting out the middle man and supplying his own.

 

"Cutting out the middleman"--har!

 

It seems likely that Jack had more than rudimentary training in human anatomy, to be able to remove small and not easily accessible organs like kidneys while working incredibly swiftly and in darkness.  If he were just after organs as commodities, seems like he would have removed more than a couple of pieces of each victim, after having gone to all that trouble.  Far better in that case to have lured the women to some enclosed shed or have had a vehicle standing by to transport the whole body which he could have harvested all the viable organs at his leisure and then maybe he wouldn't have needed so many unwilling volunteers.

 

Jack was a thrill-killer, and the parts he removed from the victims were trophies.  Apparently he was more than willing to eat at least one of his trophies . . if that letter boasting about cooking and eating the 'nise' kidney is genuine.

 

P.S. Herlock,

 

I am breathing down your neck, my man.  Gonna make Det. Superintendent in only 8 more posts! 

[HerlockSholmes]

 

 

Now that's a thought...

 

At that time, as you say, cadavers were in great demand by medical schools, but (at least over here in the US) there was no legal way to procure them, so the most common suppliers were grave robbers. Perhaps "Jack" was just cutting out the middle man and supplying his own.

"Cutting out the middleman"--har!

 

It seems likely that Jack had more than rudimentary training in human anatomy, to be able to remove small and not easily accessible organs like kidneys while working incredibly swiftly and in darkness. If he were just after organs as commodities, seems like he would have removed more than a couple of pieces of each victim, after having gone to all that trouble. Far better in that case to have lured the women to some enclosed shed or have had a vehicle standing by to transport the whole body which he could have harvested all the viable organs at his leisure and then maybe he wouldn't have needed so many unwilling volunteers.

 

Jack was a thrill-killer, and the parts he removed from the victims were trophies. Apparently he was more than willing to eat at least one of his trophies . . if that letter boasting about cooking and eating the 'nise' kidney is genuine.

 

P.S. Herlock,

 

I am breathing down your neck, my man. Gonna make Det. Superintendent in only 8 more posts!

I agree. These murders weren’t ‘business transactions,’ Jack killed because he either got sexual pleasure from his actions or he had a deep hatred of prostitutes in particular or just women in general. Or a combination of both. Maybe he felt that he had some kind of warped religious duty to rid the streets of ‘sinful’ women. Unless we uncover the killer for certain we will never know his motive.

 

I think that you will catch me up and take over in the near future Hikari