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Female Sherlock!


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#1 HerlockSholmes

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 05:48 PM

I didnt know if anyone had heard of this or where to post it so Moderaters ‘feel free to move.’👍

http://metro.co.uk/2...ot-7202499/amp/
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Regards, Herlock
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

#2 Hikari

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 07:53 PM

I didnt know if anyone had heard of this or where to post it so Moderaters ‘feel free to move.’👍

http://metro.co.uk/2...ot-7202499/amp/

 

Omoshiroi.  (Interesting.)

 

The Japanese are very keen on Sherlock Holmes.  (Even though his name has so many unpronounceable 'L's).  They love mysteries in general.  One of the top literary prizes in the nation is the Edogawa Rampo prize for best mystery novel, akin to the Silver Dagger award.  'Edogawa Rampo' is how the Japanese pronounce 'Edgar Allen Poe'.

 

What is surprising about this reboot is that both leads are women.  Because Sherlock Holmes is traditionally the personification of everything which is masculine, particularly in his approach to rationality, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a more chauvinistic and socially-regressive society as regards women's roles in it outside of the Islamic world than Japan.  I speak as somebody who lived there for nearly 6 years and observed their societal dynamics at firsthand. The Japanese are cutting-edge in technology and lead the world in building robots and bum-warming toilet seats and the like.  Their tech is 22nd century; their gender roles are very '1950s', if not earlier.   I'm really very surprised that the Japanese TV industry took a chance on a detective show anchored by two females.

 

It looks like they've found a very good female Sherlock, just going by looks here.  Sherlock's signature steepled hands posture is particularly fetching.  The 'Watson' looks like a very typical example of the 'kawaii onnanohito' (Cute Girl.)  Wish I could see this, though.  I predict this show will be popular with the coveted 18-34 year old male demographic and if their female counterparts watch to see a strong female character being celebrated for her logic than because she's cute or needs protecting, so much the better.


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#3 Boton

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 07:59 PM

Oh, this looks good!  Wonder if we are getting it simultaneously on Hulu?  If so, it might tip the scales for me subscribing.  


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#4 HerlockSholmes

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 08:51 PM

I thought hard before posting this because I didn’t/don’t want to sound in any way sexist. But.....as a traditionalist I don’t like the idea of this. I’m preparing myself for comments.
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

#5 Hikari

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:03 PM

I thought hard before posting this because I didn’t/don’t want to sound in any way sexist. But.....as a traditionalist I don’t like the idea of this. I’m preparing myself for comments.

 

Well, I'm a femme and I don't like the idea of a female Sherlock either.  Nor do I embrace a female Watson, Moriarty or a transgender Mrs. Hudson.  So I've got your back, bruv.


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#6 Boton

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:12 PM

No, I understand what you mean, Herlock.  I think I do, anyway.

 

In many ways, the Holmes-Watson relationship is special because it is quintessentially male. In fact, due to its Victorian origins, it may be even more male/masculine than anything we can really produce today, since in that era men and women operated in very different spheres.  From that perspective, I think the idea of an all-female rendering of Sherlock Holmes is a horrible idea, because the world is full of female friendship stories, and we are relatively short of ones that celebrate male friendship in the way Sherlock Holmes does.

 

But on the other hand, I'm excited to try it, because I like seeing what you can change about the original and still have a recognizable Sherlock Holmes story. We have tried making it modern or putting the characters in different career or moving them to different countries, all with greater or lesser success.  I'm interested to see what a Japanese female incarnation will look like.  Maybe it will fall flat for me, but I'm going to give it a go.


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#7 Boton

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:13 PM

 

 

a transgender Mrs. Hudson

 

Forget the bugged underwear, Hikari.  This is the fanfic I want you to write.   :)


Read Boton's fanfiction at AO3: http://archiveofouro...on/pseuds/Boton

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#8 T.o.b.y

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:30 PM

I thought hard before posting this because I didn’t/don’t want to sound in any way sexist. But.....as a traditionalist I don’t like the idea of this. I’m preparing myself for comments.


Nah, that's fine, imo. I do like the idea of a female Holmes and Watson but I want to write them myself as fanfiction, not watch them on TV :-P

Before Sherlock, I refused to see any adaptation of the Sherlock Holmes stories because I liked the character so much. I only consented to watch the BBC show because Martin Freeman was in it, then, well... I fell in love.

Funny, I have never thought of Holmes as very male. For me, he always came across as if his gender didn't really matter.
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#9 Hikari

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 09:56 PM

 

 

 

a transgender Mrs. Hudson

 

Forget the bugged underwear, Hikari.  This is the fanfic I want you to write.   :)

 

 

Boton,

 

This is not an original idea of mine--I refer you to the CBS series Elementary.  'Miss Hudson' appears in, I want to say, S2.  She is Kandis Kane, transgender entertainer and for a brief while, companion of Caitlyn Jenner.  It didn't last long, and may have just been a publicity stunt for 'I am Cait'.  Between you and me and the bedpost, the former Bruce/now Cait is a deeply mentally-confused individual.  She doesn't seem to really know who or what she wants, other than Attention.  Kandis seems much more at peace with herself, but she's been at it longer.  There wasn't any particular reason to make Mrs. Hudson (here a 'Miss') transgender, other than pushing the envelope for pushing the envelope's sake.  I think it would have been more hilarious if they'd make Sherlock's housekeeper a little Vietnamese lady who didn't speak a word of English but still managed to boss around Sherlock Holmes within an inch of his life.

 

I have a vivid imagination but I confess it falls short of inhabiting trans mind space.  I will leave this fan fic to those who feel that calling, possibly a trans author will step forward and oblige you.  I'll stick with my bugged underpants story if that's OK.  As a red-blooded hetero female who's never desired to be Other, I get a bigger kick out of imagining Sherlock, either in, or out, of his underpants.  I'm sure you understand.  :)


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#10 Boton

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 10:05 PM

Oh, yes, I do remember Miss Hudson from Elementary! I only watched three seasons, and then it lost my interest.  

 

I understand your perspective here.  I'm a Kinsey 0 cis-gender female who experiences primary sexual attraction, so a lot of the tags on fan fics I've actually had to look up, like "demisexual" and "asexual" as it applies to human beings and not to a form of reproduction. I have, however, had the fortune of knowing several transgender folks in my classes, and many of them have very interesting journeys that really make it clear that Caitlyn Jenner is nuts far more because of her proximity to the Kardashian family than anything else.

 

I look forward to the bugged underpants story. I must admit, I have a certain fascination for imagining Sherlock Holmes in his BVDs (or out of them) as well.   :D


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#11 HerlockSholmes

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 10:53 PM

No, I understand what you mean, Herlock. I think I do, anyway.

In many ways, the Holmes-Watson relationship is special because it is quintessentially male. In fact, due to its Victorian origins, it may be even more male/masculine than anything we can really produce today, since in that era men and women operated in very different spheres. From that perspective, I think the idea of an all-female rendering of Sherlock Holmes is a horrible idea, because the world is full of female friendship stories, and we are relatively short of ones that celebrate male friendship in the way Sherlock Holmes does.

But on the other hand, I'm excited to try it, because I like seeing what you can change about the original and still have a recognizable Sherlock Holmes story. We have tried making it modern or putting the characters in different career or moving them to different countries, all with greater or lesser success. I'm interested to see what a Japanese female incarnation will look like. Maybe it will fall flat for me, but I'm going to give it a go.


Thanks Boton,

Having said what I’ve said I can’t imagine that I won’t have a look. I suppose that one of the things that puts me off this interpretation is that I get the impression that some things are novelty purely for novelty’s sake. Obviously money talks and the name Sherlock will pull in the viewers (at least at first, depending on how much the public like it.)
Women obviously get short shrift in the Doyle stories. Apart from Irene Adler they are either damsels in distress or they bring in the tea (Doyle was hardly a modern man. He didn’t support women’s suffrage for example.) I wouldn’t dream of trying to ‘speak for’ women but why don’t they just write better roles for them. Create a new female detective who is cleverer than everyone else.

Perhaps I’m just an old fogey who yearns for the man in the deerstalker dashing out into the foggy night to hail a Hansom cab? Ahh.....those were the days😢
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Regards, Herlock
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#12 Hikari

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 10:56 PM

Oh, yes, I do remember Miss Hudson from Elementary! I only watched three seasons, and then it lost my interest.  

 

I understand your perspective here.  I'm a Kinsey 0 cis-gender female who experiences primary sexual attraction, so a lot of the tags on fan fics I've actually had to look up, like "demisexual" and "asexual" as it applies to human beings and not to a form of reproduction. I have, however, had the fortune of knowing several transgender folks in my classes, and many of them have very interesting journeys that really make it clear that Caitlyn Jenner is nuts far more because of her proximity to the Kardashian family than anything else.

 

I look forward to the bugged underpants story. I must admit, I have a certain fascination for imagining Sherlock Holmes in his BVDs (or out of them) as well.   :D

 

I've watched Kinsey and read up on the scale. The lower the number, the more hetero one is, ja?  I'm a '0' too, then.  Not familiar with the 'cis-gender' term, though.  'Demi-sexual' is also new to me.  I've just recently wrapped my head around 'Non-binary'.

 

My closest male friend is gay and when he used to live next door to me, we'd sit on either one of our respective porches and scope the talent walking by.  He usually could find something to appreciate far more easily than I, but if you saw where I live, you'd understand why my standards aren't quite that democratic.  Gay men make really good girlfriends for hetero women because they get where we are coming from vis. dude appreciation and they generally enjoy shopping and antiquing and other pursuits the gals are into.  My friend grew up in the country, and there wasn't a lot of money growing up, so he got very self-sufficient at traditionally masculine pursuits like hunting, hanging drywall and using power tools.  At his house, if it wasn't DIY, it didn't get done.  His family's affectionate nickname for him is 'Martha Black & Decker' because I'd wager there are very few other men on the planet that might spend the afternoon hanging drywall and installing plumbing on a bathroom remodel and chase that with an evening of coloring Easter Eggs according to instructions in Martha Stewart Living.  (Naturally he has a subscription.)   Coloring the Easter Eggs while baked on some really ace ganja was his own little touch.

 

We never discussed Kinsey as such.  I suppose he'd be a '6', though when he was young and confused, he did date girls in high school.  His significant relationships have been with men and in fact at the age of 41, he's found a life partner and I'm invited to their wedding next summer. 

 

While watching an episode of 'Orange is the New Black', or pondering the highly unlikely yet *possible* scenario in which I am stranded on a desert island with only another female for company, I pose the question to myself--under these conditions, could I have lesbian encounters?  The conclusion I have come to is, no, I really don't think I could, even if my fellow strandee on the island became a very dear friend.  That bell is just not rung for me, even though I can see how other women who consider themselves straight might make a detour in those situations.  Guess that makes me a Kinsey 0 cis-gender too . .?


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#13 HerlockSholmes

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 10:56 PM

I thought hard before posting this because I didn’t/don’t want to sound in any way sexist. But.....as a traditionalist I don’t like the idea of this. I’m preparing myself for comments.

Nah, that's fine, imo. I do like the idea of a female Holmes and Watson but I want to write them myself as fanfiction, not watch them on TV :-P

Before Sherlock, I refused to see any adaptation of the Sherlock Holmes stories because I liked the character so much. I only consented to watch the BBC show because Martin Freeman was in it, then, well... I fell in love.

Funny, I have never thought of Holmes as very male. For me, he always came across as if his gender didn't really matter.

I wasnt even happy when I heard about Sherlock. Fortunately it was one of the best surprises of my life👍
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Regards, Herlock
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

#14 HerlockSholmes

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 11:05 PM





a transgender Mrs. Hudson


Forget the bugged underwear, Hikari. This is the fanfic I want you to write. :)

Boton,

This is not an original idea of mine--I refer you to the CBS series Elementary. 'Miss Hudson' appears in, I want to say, S2. She is Kandis Kane, transgender entertainer and for a brief while, companion of Caitlyn Jenner. It didn't last long, and may have just been a publicity stunt for 'I am Cait'. Between you and me and the bedpost, the former Bruce/now Cait is a deeply mentally-confused individual. She doesn't seem to really know who or what she wants, other than Attention. Kandis seems much more at peace with herself, but she's been at it longer. There wasn't any particular reason to make Mrs. Hudson (here a 'Miss') transgender, other than pushing the envelope for pushing the envelope's sake. I think it would have been more hilarious if they'd make Sherlock's housekeeper a little Vietnamese lady who didn't speak a word of English but still managed to boss around Sherlock Holmes within an inch of his life.

I have a vivid imagination but I confess it falls short of inhabiting trans mind space. I will leave this fan fic to those who feel that calling, possibly a trans author will step forward and oblige you. I'll stick with my bugged underpants story if that's OK. As a red-blooded hetero female who's never desired to be Other, I get a bigger kick out of imagining Sherlock, either in, or out, of his underpants. I'm sure you understand. :)

I didn’t know that Elementary’s Mrs Hudson was transgender. You’ve got me wondering about Mary Gordon now! Or even worse Minnie Rayner!
I too saw the first three series of Elementary ( I have the fourth but haven’t gotten around to watching it) and liked it but then I thought to myself “first Sherlock now Elementary. I’m straying too far from The True Path here😀)
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Regards, Herlock
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

#15 Boton

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 11:10 PM

Oh, yes, I do remember Miss Hudson from Elementary! I only watched three seasons, and then it lost my interest.

I understand your perspective here. I'm a Kinsey 0 cis-gender female who experiences primary sexual attraction, so a lot of the tags on fan fics I've actually had to look up, like "demisexual" and "asexual" as it applies to human beings and not to a form of reproduction. I have, however, had the fortune of knowing several transgender folks in my classes, and many of them have very interesting journeys that really make it clear that Caitlyn Jenner is nuts far more because of her proximity to the Kardashian family than anything else.

I look forward to the bugged underpants story. I must admit, I have a certain fascination for imagining Sherlock Holmes in his BVDs (or out of them) as well. :D


I've watched Kinsey and read up on the scale. The lower the number, the more hetero one is, ja? I'm a '0' too, then. Not familiar with the 'cis-gender' term, though. 'Demi-sexual' is also new to me. I've just recently wrapped my head around 'Non-binary'.

My closest male friend is gay and when he used to live next door to me, we'd sit on either one of our respective porches and scope the talent walking by. He usually could find something to appreciate far more easily than I, but if you saw where I live, you'd understand why my standards aren't quite that democratic. Gay men make really good girlfriends for hetero women because they get where we are coming from vis. dude appreciation and they generally enjoy shopping and antiquing and other pursuits the gals are into. My friend grew up in the country, and there wasn't a lot of money growing up, so he got very self-sufficient at traditionally masculine pursuits like hunting, hanging drywall and using power tools. At his house, if it wasn't DIY, it didn't get done. His family's affectionate nickname for him is 'Martha Black & Decker' because I'd wager there are very few other men on the planet that might spend the afternoon hanging drywall and installing plumbing on a bathroom remodel and chase that with an evening of coloring Easter Eggs according to instructions in Martha Stewart Living. (Naturally he has a subscription.) Coloring the Easter Eggs while baked on some really ace ganja was his own little touch.

We never discussed Kinsey as such. I suppose he'd be a '6', though when he was young and confused, he did date girls in high school. His significant relationships have been with men and in fact at the age of 41, he's found a life partner and I'm invited to their wedding next summer.

While watching an episode of 'Orange is the New Black', or pondering the highly unlikely yet *possible* scenario in which I am stranded on a desert island with only another female for company, I pose the question to myself--under these conditions, could I have lesbian encounters? The conclusion I have come to is, no, I really don't think I could, even if my fellow strandee on the island became a very dear friend. That bell is just not rung for me, even though I can see how other women who consider themselves straight might make a detour in those situations. Guess that makes me a Kinsey 0 cis-gender too . .?

My understanding (and someone else please chime in if I’m wrong or miss the nuance):

The Kinsey scale is 0 to 5, with 0 being completely heterosexual and 5 being completely homosexual. A 1, then, would be someone almost always attracted to the opposite gender but who might find exceptions. A 4 is the same, with the person primarily homosexual.

“Cis-gender” just means that you identify as the gender they said you were at birth. I was identified as a girl after a look at my genitals at birth, and mentally I agree I’m female, so I’m cis. It is kind of a way to shorthand the opposite of trans.

Demisexual, if I understand right, is the case in which a person experiences sexual attraction but only after adding the intellectual or emotional component. For me, I would not actually sleep with someone I didn’t have a bond with, but I’m quite capable of arousal on sight, so I’ve seen that called primary sexual attraction.

I have also seen heteroromantic and homoromantic used, which I think is where your desert island scenario comes in for me. If I had to, I could form a kind of pair bond with another female, but I experience no desire to touch a female in a sexual way. This concept, which I admit I’m not fully up on, seems a lot like best friendship to me, but I may be missing a nuance here.


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#16 Artemis

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 01:12 AM

I have also seen heteroromantic and homoromantic used, which I think is where your desert island scenario comes in for me. If I had to, I could form a kind of pair bond with another female, but I experience no desire to touch a female in a sexual way. This concept, which I admit I’m not fully up on, seems a lot like best friendship to me, but I may be missing a nuance here.


As I understand it, heteroromantic and homoromantic are terms mostly used by asexuals who experience romantic attraction.  There are believed to be multiple forms of attraction outside of sexual attraction.  Some asexuals are also aromantic, while others are not.  Those who are not indicate who they are romantically attracted to by using a term like that (there is also biromantic, and a few others I believe).

Words that could apply to me are asexual (sex-indifferent rather than sex-repulsed), possibly gray-sexual or demisexual; and on the romantic end, heteroromantic, gray-romantic, demiromantic.  To avoid more confusion (and having to explain myself constantly), I usually just use the umbrella term of 'asexual' with no additional information.  I believe I may be agender as well, but since I don't feel strongly enough about it to be bothered about being referred to by my biological gender, I don't correct people and I don't feel it interferes with my life to the degree that transgender people often feel.  There's actually a new word for that now: demigirl (I can't keep up with all these new terms!).

For me there is a huge difference between a romantic bond and a best friendship; although most people seem to find it difficult to articulate the difference in words.  I've heard people say that a romantic partner is just a best friend you have sex with, and if you took sex out of the equation, a friendship is what you'd have left.  But I disagree entirely (and I'm liable to rant).  I think just about everyone who's had both a romantic relationship and a true best friend would or should intuitively understand the difference.  And maybe not enough people have had a best friend like that, I donno.  :/  But if you have a husband, for example, you probably didn't just marry him because you thought he was hot; you had other feelings for him, and some of those could be considered friend-like feelings, but some of them you would not apply to a friend, even a best friend.  I've heard the example that if he got into some sort of an accident and could no longer have sex, he wouldn't suddenly become "your friend" to you.  You'd still feel something else.  Love for a best friend can be just as powerful and meaningful, but it is not the same  feeling.  People like to joke that it resembles romantic love, but it is not.

 

 


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#17 Carol the Dabbler

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 05:51 AM

I think I'd be more interested in watching a new Holmes and Watson if they were either English women or Japanese men.  I'm pretty sure that introducing two differences at the same time would make it seem like a whole different story to me, rather than the same basic story with a difference.

 

I liked Elementary until they made Joan into basically another Holmes rather than a traditional (albeit female) Watson.  After that (plus the revelations about Adler and Moriarty), I just couldn't get into it anymore.  It felt more like a detective soap opera (and for a while there I was starting to worry that Sherlock was heading in that direction as well).


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#18 Artemis

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 07:18 AM

I couldn't get into "Elementary".  I wanted to, and I liked some of what I saw, but it just didn't hold my interest.  I can't put my finger on it, but I suspect it has something to do with the acting style or characters, specifically the Watson.  I didn't care for the Holmes at first, but I got used to him.  Not sure I ever bought Lucy Liu as Watson.  But I still don't know why.  :/

 

 


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"Why have I got this blanket?  They keep putting this blanket on me."


#19 HerlockSholmes

HerlockSholmes

    Detective Chief Superintendent

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  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Empty Hearse
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Posted 05 January 2018 - 10:38 AM

I think I'd be more interested in watching a new Holmes and Watson if they were either English women or Japanese men. I'm pretty sure that introducing two differences at the same time would make it seem like a whole different story to me, rather than the same basic story with a difference.

I liked Elementary until they made Joan into basically another Holmes rather than a traditional (albeit female) Watson. After that (plus the revelations about Adler and Moriarty), I just couldn't get into it anymore. It felt more like a detective soap opera (and for a while there I was starting to worry that Sherlock was heading in that direction as well).


Carol, you’ve reminded me what troubled me with Elementary. They made Watson way too clever!
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Regards, Herlock
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."

#20 Boton

Boton

    Consulting Detective

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  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow

Posted 05 January 2018 - 01:13 PM

 

For me there is a huge difference between a romantic bond and a best friendship; although most people seem to find it difficult to articulate the difference in words.  I've heard people say that a romantic partner is just a best friend you have sex with, and if you took sex out of the equation, a friendship is what you'd have left.  But I disagree entirely (and I'm liable to rant).  I think just about everyone who's had both a romantic relationship and a true best friend would or should intuitively understand the difference.  And maybe not enough people have had a best friend like that, I donno.  :/  But if you have a husband, for example, you probably didn't just marry him because you thought he was hot; you had other feelings for him, and some of those could be considered friend-like feelings, but some of them you would not apply to a friend, even a best friend.  I've heard the example that if he got into some sort of an accident and could no longer have sex, he wouldn't suddenly become "your friend" to you.  You'd still feel something else.  Love for a best friend can be just as powerful and meaningful, but it is not the same  feeling.  People like to joke that it resembles romantic love, but it is not.

 

 

Thank you, thank you for this explanation.  This really helps me a lot.  This whole concept is both new and difficult for me.

 

You are right; what I feel for my husband is not friendship, regardless of whether or not we are physically intimate at any one point. I always sort of cringe when people say "I'm marrying my best friend."  I know what they mean, and it is a sweet sentiment, but I most emphatically did not marry my best friend; I married someone I felt romantic love for, and you are quite right that this is different.  My husband once said, "I use you as a best friend," which seemed accurate to me: we press one another into service in situations that require a best friend, but the relationship is something else entirely.

 

Thank you again.  I have a much better understanding!


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