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146 replies to this topic

#141 Hikari

Hikari

    Detective Inspector

  • 75 posts
  • LocationOhio, USA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 06 November 2017 - 07:34 PM

 

 

Don’t worry about the boxes Hikari, I have made 1000+ posts on the Casebook.org forum and I still can’t use the quote function properly! I’m useless with technology though.😡
You’re right about ACD being in Portsmouth at the time of the murders but it doesn’t deter the imbecile that wrote the book. (I was there earlier this year and saw the plaque where Bush Villas stood.) The moron that’s suggesting Van Gogh apparently isn’t put off by the fact that Vincent was completely pennyless in Arles at the time. Someone also recently wrote another book suggesting Dr Neil Cream as the ripper despite the fact that we know that he was in Joliet Prison at the time.
I haven’t read ‘The Sherlockian,’ by the way.


"Sherlockian" - BBC Sherlock connection:

"The Sherlockian" was written by a first-time 26-year-old novelist, Graham Moore, who five years later won the Best Original Screenplay Oscar for his script of "The Imitation Game", starring Benedict Cumberbatch as Alan Turing.

I enjoyed the historical flashback parts with ACD and Bram Stoker quite a bit more than I enjoyed the rather silly modern-day plot concerning two 21st century Sherlockians and their madcap investigation into a missing journal of Conan Doyle, considered the Holy Grail of Doylian scholarship. I have no idea whether one of Conan Doyle's journals is actually missing, but Moore has some fun with the idea. The events related in the missing journal the two moderns are searching for cover the same events we are living through with the two Victorian authors.

Evidently Doyle really was good friends with Bram Stoker, and I believe that another author whose name escapes me has created a detective series with Stoker as lead detective, with friend Doyle and other luminaries of the day putting in an appearance.

As to the identity of the Ripper . . .(SPOILER ALERT!) . . .Lyndsay Faye did an admirable job of convincing me in her novel "Dust and Shadow" that it is quite likely, probably *most* likely, in fact, that Saucy Jack was a beat bobby assigned to Whitechapel . . or someone even higher ranking in the Met power structure who had once been assigned Whitechapel as a beat. He may have had some forensic/surgical training but his dissections were not so sophisticated as to be the realm solely of physicians. Any hunter who'd dressed field kill probably could have done it. The thing the Ripper had a knack for was in knowing which out-of-the-way nooks would be sure to be undisturbed for at least a 15-minute period. Someone, say, like a constable familiar with the beat timetables--or the person who devised those timetables.

Laura Joh Rowland goes one step further in her hypothesis. Owing to the distance between the two crime scenes of the Elizabeth Stride - Catherine Eddowes double murder, she conjectures that there were actually *two* Rippers, who took turns doing the murders, and they got their wires crossed that night. The senior, dominant partner holding the reins being a high-ranking official in the Met, acting as Svengali to a lower-ranking junior man.

I'm sure you've got your own theories!

As you will know it’s long been debated whether the Ripper was a local man. While it’s very likely that he had local knowledge (escape routes/timings of cons tables beats etc) we also have to remember that the victims themselves were experts at knowing all the best locations for ‘business.’
The idea of two ‘rippers.’ is not a new one but I’ve never felt that it was a likely solution. And on the ‘double event’ many believe that Stride wasn’t a ripper victim. There have been books like ‘Jack The Myth’ suggesting that these were unconnected murders but, for me and the vast majority, the points of similarity are just far too great to point to more than one killer.

Doyle was indeed a friend of Stoker (and JM Barrie and Houdini) and I have at least 2 pastiches were Holmes comes up against Dracula. The description of the ‘The Sherlockian’ sounds strangely familiar to me. I’ll check my collection tomorrow and see if I have it.
Giles Brandreth has just released a book called Jack The Ripper: Case Closed where Doyle works with Oscar Wilde to catch the Ripper. Strangely Brandreth claims that his novel is based on fact. His grandmothers cousin was George Sims, a journalist and reformer, and Brandreth claims to have read his papers and come up with the solution (incidentally, 2 killers.)

 

 

 

 

Oscar Wilde as a Ripper-catching sleuth quite boggles the mind.  I don't think Oscar would have bestirred himself that much from his more ascetic pursuits like appropriating friends' quips as his own and appreciating the beauty of young men adorning his salon.

 

In my Sherlock pastiche travels I smile at the various guises Holmes's contemporary Wilde turns up in.  In some cases, he's a client, come to Baker Street to consult.  Sometimes he is positioned as an old university chum of Holmes's (Trinity College, Dublin) . . .other times it's as a bitter enemy, because as we know, there could hardly be two more dissimilar minds, world views or personal traits than between these two individuals.  Contemporaries they certainly were (notwithstanding that only one was actually real, but I daren't say that too loudly in certain circles.)  Would Sherlock Holmes be friends with Oscar Wilde?  It certainly seems very unlikely.  Their personal philosophies were just too divergent.  One notable story has Holmes counseling Wilde to let the whole matter with the Marquess of Queensberry drop because it would not be in his best interest to press the issue.  Of course Wilde did not listen and it led to his own destruction.  Perhaps if Wilde had actually had a friend like Holmes to counsel him, things would have turned out very differently for him and for British literature.


  • Carol the Dabbler likes this

I am the Stormy Petrel of crime.


#142 Carol the Dabbler

Carol the Dabbler

    Consulting Detective

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  • LocationIndiana, USA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Abominable Bride

Posted 06 November 2017 - 08:21 PM

I don't doubt that I am projecting a Baker Street mojo onto the Starship Enterprise because it is my fond wish that it be true, and it tickles me.  It seems very likely that something of the most famous literary partnership of temperamental opposites ever created influenced, however slightly, Rodenberry when he set about creating the most famous intergalactic partnership of temperamental opposites ever created.  "Spock" sounds sufficiently alien and a bit off-putting in its blunt staccato sound--almost sounds like one is hawking a lougie when one spits out that hard word.  Still . . .out of all the possible names Gene might have chosen for his half-Vulcan science officer, he picked one just a syllable removed from S-H-E-R-L-O-C-K, the original earth-based Vulcan.  At any rate, I think it had to be knocking around in his brain on some level.

 

Yes, you have an excellent point.

 

Holmes is so much a part of our culture that many people associated with Trek may have been subconsciously influenced by that character as they made successive approximations to the familiar Spock, starting with Roddenberry's first couple of versions.  Not that anybody thought, hey, let's make him more like Sherlock Holmes!  More like, each time they tweaked the character, it just "felt right" -- until Nicholas Meyer (who wrote both Seven Percent Solution and Wrath of Khan) could have Spock attribute a famous Holmes quote to "one of my human ancestors" and everybody thinks, yeah, that makes sense.


-- Carol

 


#143 Hikari

Hikari

    Detective Inspector

  • 75 posts
  • LocationOhio, USA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 06 November 2017 - 08:29 PM

 

I don't doubt that I am projecting a Baker Street mojo onto the Starship Enterprise because it is my fond wish that it be true, and it tickles me.  It seems very likely that something of the most famous literary partnership of temperamental opposites ever created influenced, however slightly, Rodenberry when he set about creating the most famous intergalactic partnership of temperamental opposites ever created.  "Spock" sounds sufficiently alien and a bit off-putting in its blunt staccato sound--almost sounds like one is hawking a lougie when one spits out that hard word.  Still . . .out of all the possible names Gene might have chosen for his half-Vulcan science officer, he picked one just a syllable removed from S-H-E-R-L-O-C-K, the original earth-based Vulcan.  At any rate, I think it had to be knocking around in his brain on some level.

 

Yes, you have an excellent point.

 

Holmes is so much a part of our culture that many people associated with Trek may have been subconsciously influenced by that character as they made successive approximations to the familiar Spock, starting with Roddenberry's first couple of versions.  Not that anybody thought, hey, let's make him more like Sherlock Holmes!  More like, each time they tweaked the character, it just "felt right" -- until Nicholas Meyer (who wrote both Seven Percent Solution and Wrath of Khan) could have Spock attribute a famous Holmes quote to "one of my human ancestors" and everybody thinks, yeah, that makes sense.

 

 

Aha!  See, you are more of a Trekker than me.  I didn't know that Spock reference Sherlock Holmes as an ancestor nor that Nicholas Meyer wrote a ST movie.

 

Then we come full circle, when Benedict Cumberbatch, made internationally famous by portraying the Great Detective became even more internationally famous (in China, as 'Curly Fu') when he portrayed 'KHAAAAAAN!"

 

I think all writers working in this genre in any medium owe a creative debt to Sir Arthur.  I'm in the midst of rereading the Tony Hill-Carol Jordan forensic thriller series by Scottish author Val McDermid.  In 'The Last Temptation', the novel I'm in now, McDermid has her profiler hero Dr. Tony Hill (memorably played by Robson Green in the TV series) utter this line, verbatim:  "It's an error to theorize ahead of the facts."  Some people may think that Tony thought that up off the cuff, but we know Sherlock said it first.  And Dr. Hill does have very Sherlockian traits.  He is partnered with his 'Watson', or perhaps better said, his "Lestrade" in the person of DCI Carol Jordan.


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I am the Stormy Petrel of crime.


#144 Carol the Dabbler

Carol the Dabbler

    Consulting Detective

  • 17,415 posts
  • LocationIndiana, USA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Abominable Bride

Posted 06 November 2017 - 08:57 PM

I think you're right, that ACD basically pioneered the detective novel that we know today.  (Though he credited Poe with that honor, and I must admit that I've never read AEP's detective fiction.)  For one thing, Watson is the first "ear" that I know of, the first-person narrator that the detective sometimes confides in (thus allowing the author to introduce bits of exposition in a natural sort of way), and who tells the story based on his own observations of the detective at work.  This device allows the author to keep most of the detective's thoughts private until he's ready to unveil the killer, and also allows the author to make the occasional less-than-complementary remark about the detective.

 


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-- Carol

 


#145 Carol the Dabbler

Carol the Dabbler

    Consulting Detective

  • 17,415 posts
  • LocationIndiana, USA
  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:The Reichenbach Fall
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:The Sign of Three
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Abominable Bride

Posted 06 November 2017 - 09:38 PM

Re. my text box glitch earlier . .  would anybody be willing to share with me if it's possible to cut and paste into the reply boxes here?  I've tried it but so far no joy.  I'm still learning some of the site features, so apologies if that is a really obvious question.  I posted a link with no problems but it doesn't work to import a block of text.

 

Also my emojis don't seem to want to go where I intend them to.  They keep wanting to migrate to the top of a post when I want them to go on the bottom.

 

Yes, you can cut-and-paste as usual, and people often do that in order to quote from another website.  (Trying to cut-and-paste within the forum, however, can have some odd side effects, so it's generally best to use the Quote functions in that case.)

 

There are, however, a few sites that are very difficult to copy from -- you think you've copied and pasted, but there's nothing there -- or at least nothing visible.  It's still possible to copy from these sites, but the only way I've found involves going into plain-text mode.  If you can send me a link to the page you were trying to copy from and what text you were trying to copy, I can see if it's one of the troublesome ones, and if so I can tell you how to circumvent the problem. 

 

Your reply probably ended up inside the quote box either because you accidentally positioned your cursor there, or because -- before adding your reply -- you did something that effectively made the space following the quote box unavailable to you.  It's important to keep very careful track of your cursor position on this forum.

 

Same goes for your emotie positions.  They will end up wherever your cursor is at the time, or at least the forum's own emoties will.  If you're importing emoties, the same should apply, but I would need to know what method you're using in order to say for sure.


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-- Carol

 


#146 Arcadia

Arcadia

    Consulting Detective

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  • Favorite series 1 episode:The Great Game
  • Favourite Series 2 Episode:A Scandal In Belgravia
  • Favourite Series 3 Episode:His Last Vow
  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Lying Detective

Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:06 AM

Also from my own experience I know the kind of browser you are using can have an effect on how the forum works ... in Explorer, for example, I couldn't cut and paste unless I was in "plain text" mode. Very annoying.
 
Plain text mode is via that little square icon on the upper left of the menu in the reply box. (At least, it's there on my laptop ... I gather the type of machine you're using can also have an effect on the function and appearance of the forum (?)) In plain text mode you can see the forum's formatting code, and with a little patience you can tease out any formatting problem you have. I assume that's how Carol fixed your quote box above. You can also get into a heck of a pickle in plain text mode. I just happened to have some prior html knowledge, which made it easier for me, but I can imagine it just looks like chaos to many people. :smile: But a couple of times I've managed to make most of a post disappear ... the text was still there, you just couldn't see it in "regular" mode because I'd hashed up the code. Aaargh.


It's this, or Cluedo.

#147 HerlockSholmes

HerlockSholmes

    Detective Superintendent

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  • Favorite series 1 episode:A Study In Pink
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  • Favourite series 4 episode:The Final Problem

Posted 07 November 2017 - 02:15 PM

Herlock, (BTW, I see after posting this that you hit the buzzer just before me, so this will repeat some of the stuff you have already replied to, most likely)


Seeing as you are kind of our resident Ripperphile here, I'd be interested to know of your theories of the Ripper's identity. I presume you find Lyndsay Faye and Laura Joh Rowland's hypotheses plausible?

I had a chill go through me when I read Faye's theory. I've always struggled with the notion that Saucy Jack was a gentleman, with a gentleman's demeanor and potentially a private carriage for picking up his prey and doing his ill deeds. I'm sure gentlemen from all quarters of London wound up in Whitechapel intent on a debauch, but surely a guy with means and a taste for the wild side could have found willing ladies of the evening in more salubrious parts of London? There were any number of establishments catering to the higher class gents wanting some female company by the hour. How desperate would a gentleman have to be to wind up shopping for companionship in Whitechapel? Of course, we know Jack wasn't just there to have a bit of slap and tickle and be on his way. However, gentlemen's attire and most assuredly a gentleman's carriage would have stood out worse than a sore thumb--they would be a beacon announcing his presence in the district. The last thing that Jack would have wanted. And, I've never been to Whitechapel but I know that its streets would have been in the main too narrow to make getting away cleanly with a carriage a tricky prospect. No, Jack was on foot, he was moving fast, and he had intimate knowledge of the warrens of Whitechapel, enough to know of shortcuts and to potentially have any number of hidey holes to stash tools, changes of clothing, what have you . . .or to duck into if he felt the heat getting too hot. Perhaps he even grew up in Whitechapel. I don't think any visiting 'gentleman' from another part of the city or another country full-stop like the U.S. would have such intimate knowledge of Whitechapel and her denizens.

Then there is the matter of how easily he got these women to go with him. Of course, they were all desperate and would have glommed onto any prospect of getting a drink and a few bob for the night--but what if Jack hand-picked his victims not strictly from opportunity, but because he *knew* them . . as in, knew to say hello to and tip his tall hat to in the course of his rounds? If he'd cultivated a reputation as a copper who would turn a blind eye to their activities, perhaps, it was suggested, with a bit of a 'freebie' to ensure his cooperation . . .a bent copper wouldn't make these street birds have batted an eye . . .and if they already knew and trusted him as a friendly sort willing to do them a favor in exchange for a quickie in the alley--why wouldn't they have trustingly have gone with him down a dark passage? After all, if he was the 'law', he wasn't going to hurt them, was he? Arrest them maybe . .but not anything violent.

If he were in fact a Whitechapel boy whose mother had gotten sucked into the life of the streets . . and he joined the police as one of the few career paths providing respect and an opportunity for advancement for a working-class bloke . . well, we must had the brain-tickling possibility, then, that the Ripper might very well have been one of Fred Abberline's own constables--if not a higher ranking officer. As to why the Ripper stopped so very suddenly--if he did in fact stop and not just transfer his activities to another jurisdiction--not sure. Maybe he felt the net closing around him and left London. Maybe he committed suicide and became one of the thousands of unidentified bodies washed up by the Thames. We will never know for sure but the 'Ripper as copper' theory seems very chillingly plausible to me. More so than Ripper as random civilian.

What do you think about this?


On the question of the ripper being a police officer, it’s certainly possible, but there’s no persuasive evidence that he was. Police Officers had to stick to strict beats with strict times. The consequences for a policeman abandoning his route could be severe and as the victims were all killed on different beats it’s almost impossible for it to have been one officer. Even if the arguement was put forward that an off-duty officer could have gone out in his uniform he would again have been taking a massive risk of being noticed by a fellow officer. All officers had ‘collar numbers’ which signified the area in which they were based. ‘H’ division was Whitechapel, ‘J’ division was Bethnal Green etc. As I said though it’s not impossible that it could have been a police officer in his everyday clothes. He would have had local knowledge and might have been familiar with some of the women (especially if, as you suggest, he was more than willing to turn a blind eye maybe in exchange for the odd ‘favour.’) Two suspects, Cutbush and Lechmere had family connections to the police and a guy in Spain was supposed to be writing a book in which he could ‘prove’ via handwriting that Abberline was the ripper!
As to the idea that the rippers mother may have been a prostitute its certainly a possible motive that could explain a hatred of prostitutes. What we don’t know is whether the ripper had a specific hatred of prostitutes or did he just hate women and prostitutes were the easiest targets? The ages might be suggestive. Apart from Kelly they were all mid to late forties and, because of the terrible hardship of their lives, would have looked older.
Regards, Herlock
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact."