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sherlockandjohn

Detectives
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Everything posted by sherlockandjohn

  1. Janine certainly showed that she wouldn't just lay down and cry, but stand up for herself... so, yeah, I'd agree. Not that there's anything wrong with crying, mind you, and that's probably how I'd have reacted So, changed my rating of this episode and made it my favorite of series 4 after having just finished watching all of Sherlock once again. Where The Lying Detective impressed me most on the first viewing, The Final Problem has grown on me and become one of my favorites. It manages to keep me riveted throughout its 90 minute run, even after having watched it 4-5 times. It also has a great emotional balance, whereas The Lying Detective - while a great story - feels sort of depressing to me.
  2. It is like in TLD. In both, he must get John past being angry. He has to expend his rage. It must be released rather than repressed. Once he has released it, he can move past it - as we see happens in both. That is John's nature. Okay, I understand what you mean now I just don't read the same into TEH, because Sherlock seemed so much more clueless back then.
  3. :D I don't necessarily rank by enjoyment either, but I actually do enjoy TRF for the sheer brilliance of it. TLD, however... One of my faves, but it's still pretty painful to watch parts of it. But that's also what I love; it has emotional depth. I guess you could say I rank by "enjoyment", or by affection for an episode. On closer consideration I am modifying my ranking: 1. The Reichenbach Fall 2. The Lying Detective 3. A Study in Pink 4. The Final Problem 5. The Empty Hearse 6. The Sign of Three 7. The Great Game 8. The Hounds of Baskerville 9. A Scandal in Belgravia 10. The Abominable Bride 11. His Last Vow 12. The Six Thatchers 13. The Blind Banker
  4. I don't believe he meant it at all. He was acting. And he lets this facade down only at the end when replying to Mary's question: "You don't know anything about human nature do you?l" "Mmmm, nature? No." he replies flippantly. "Human? he says more slowly, pausing to give Mary a serious look. "No" he states in a deeper, self-confidant tone. And then he smiles. This is Sherlock essentially winking at Mary. And Mary smiles back at him. She gets it. This was NOT blindness but knowing action. Recognizing that his WHY she immediately says she will help Sherlock. "I'll talk him round." I know I should probably take this discussion to The Empty Hearse thread... but I think that thread is less active, and I'm really curious to hear people's versions of this scene I interpret Mary's words like she is saying: "I know you don't really understand human nature, and that's why I'm going to help you". Sherlock's words just sound like he's making a joke, splitting human nature up in two separate terms so as to emphasize the fact that he understands next to nothing of either one. I can't quite follow you as to why Sherlock would act ignorant here... That hardly seems helpful in getting John to let go of his anger and forgive him. What does everyone else think?
  5. Mrs. Hudson! I expected Molly Hooper, to be honest.
  6. I don't think Sherlock was ignorant at all of John's feelings in TEH. I think he was completely calculating - as much as he was in TLD. I think TEH and TLD are echoes of each other in this regard. In both, Sherlock knows John is hurting (supposedly at Sherlock's hand). In both Sherlock has to get John past the wall he erects which is his anger and rage, and to the point of acceptance - so that they may renew and reaffirm their friendship. Thus, in both Sherlock provokes John in order to get him to release that rage (physically - so as to break down that wall) in order that John may then get past it. Early in The Empty Hearse it definitely seems to me that Sherlock is ignorant - to some extent, at least - of John's feelings. When he shows up in the restaurant it takes him a moment to catch up with the fact that John is furious. He probably expected John to get angry, but not like this. When Sherlock talked to Mary and said, "I don't understand - I said I was sorry, isn't that what you're supposed to do?" I believe he really meant that. He just didn't get it. But when John left, I think Sherlock started to realise the depth of John's anger and sorrow. He caught up quickly after that. Yep, noticed that too It made perfect sense to end the song there! I also feel that this was a darker, tougher series than the previous ones - however, The Final Problem still had a good energy, some exhilarating scenes and funny moments. The Lying Detective too, actually, but most of it was very solemn. The Six Thatchers was just a bit... low key. I enjoy how you keep catching these references to the 'love' theme of series 4 Some of them escape my attention completely. Ha! :D You're right; that would be upside-down! John falling for the ex-assasin, Sherlock for the girl-next-door! ;) Alas, I am not convinced that he doesn't prefer Irene, though. But never mind... that would never last or become anything serious. Perhaps Sherlock would eventually fall for Molly.
  7. Agreed, but the backdrop was Sherlock being a jerk after returning from exile, having pretended to be dead for two years At this point, a similar plot would be considered character regression, not development. I love TEH, don't get me wrong, but I don't want to see Sherlock being that ignorant of someone's feelings again - at least not in such a serious context. He's grown too much for that.
  8. Yes yes Eurus mentions him, says he owns a TV station and helped her broadcast the message! Also, just went to Rotten Tomatoes and the audience ratings are only 32%!! A whole lot of people only gave the season one half star. I call that outrageous. I left one good rating, not sure it'll help much as nearly 2000 people have reviewed it. Goody! Now I've got something to look for when I watch the episode again That sounds outrageous to me as well. I can't help but think that a lot of people are simply frustrated that it didn't turn out how they wanted, and they forget to acknowledge how good the series is compared to so much other television. But of course people can do whatever they want, and my interpretation is obviously affected by my own feelings about series 4. I just hope Moffat and Gatiss get the positive feedback as well. I think they deserve it.
  9. I would love to see one final episode like that, but without character or story arc, there seems to be little point in continuing the show. Could be wrong, though
  10. What I find really weird is that he has a brother and neither Sherlock nor Mycroft have mentioned him, and we haven't seen a picture either? Especially now we know he helped Eurus. Heck, I'd even take Andrew Scott with a prosthetic nose, if they can't be twins! :lol: Moriarty has a brother? In this BBC version of Sherlock? I have to quote the man himself and say: "What did I miss?"
  11. Well, maybe we should go to review sites and try to help even out the score? Critics usually shout louder, but it doesn't have to be that way. One of the things I love most about this episode, and all of series 4, is how it connects with the overall story and character arc. Sherlock continues to change, to understand the consequences of his actions, to get to know himself better, and to let his guard down. John, too, has a moment of really letting his guard down, and the result for both men is that they are able to be much more honest - with themselves and with each other. The Final Problem - while focused quite a lot on a new character - brings Sherlock and John to a point in their friendship where they stand side by side, with no reservations. And that's how it ends. It mirrors the beginning of the show... I keep thinking of that moment in ASiP when Sherlock and John walk away together at the end. It's magic on screen for me, and from the first moment I watched it, I knew that this was going to be a great friendship. When it comes to Sherlock's character arc, Lestrade sums it up - Sherlock has gone from being a great man to being a good one. Again, this mirrors ASiP. Then there's all the other relationships... Everything is tied up neatly. I know I'm just sentimental, though, and as such, I really love this series and this episode.
  12. It is hard to imagine Sherlock without Moriarty in it in some way, isn't it? Although, it did work in several episodes, actually, but most of us have always seemed reluctant to let him go. At the same time, it doesn't seem reasonable to keep him in just for further flashbacks, and if there was a twin, surely Mycroft and Sherlock would know about it by now... Oh well, doesn't matter - bring him back, just for the fun of it! I'd even accept the 'fake death' explanation just to see him again :D (Kidding... maybe)
  13. Fantastic, thanks! I think the love feelings of Sherlock have yet to be cultivated. Molly is happy anyway. That was a nice video! I agree; I like how BC talks about Sherlock still having to discover his feelings (whatever those feelings may be). Makes me think that there is still potential for character development, even though Sherlock has already grown so much. But I will also be happy leaving it up to my own imagination
  14. Did anyone else scream at Sherlock, when John said, "Vatican Cameos," and Sherlock took out his earpiece?! Seriously, danger flags going up all over the place! Sherlock, you idiot! I do think I understand why he did it, though. At least my interpretation of it is that he wanted to gain his sisters trust.
  15. I agree, and I thought it was one of the best things about the episode. I'm not even a Mycroft fan - he ridicules Sherlock too much - but I've always felt that he loves Sherlock... and I believed that Sherlock loves him too, despite his many scathing remarks directed towards his brother. It was nice to finally see Sherlock acknowledge their brotherly bond in several wonderful scenes. There was something about that line, "unmarried, practical about death, alone," that made me think of both Molly AND Eurus, but I hadn't had time to process it yet. I think you're right, and probably this is the reason Eurus included Molly in her "games" to get Sherlock's attention.
  16. It's statement's like this which must be what drive the writers insane: 'You showed me the rope being lowered into the well. But you didn't show me someone climbing down the rope! You didn't show me someone unlocking John with the keys to the chains which Eurus gave Sherlock! You didn't show me them then climbing back out of the well!! Without showing me that, I MUST conclude that John "miraculously" just climbed up on his own with no problem - that the chains somehow MAGICALLY were no longer binding him - despite the irrationality of such a contradiction. It can't be my conclusion! It can't be you think I'm smart enough to figure this basic stuff out on my own! I'm NOT! I have to be show EVERYTHING. So if you don't show it to me, then it MUST be a PLOT HOLE! Stupid writers!!!!' Double Sigh. Yeah, I have to admit, I feel bad that the writers are given such a hard time. I too have had little imagination concerning certain things... like how Mary didn't seem to be sorry for what she did to Sherlock in HLV (not until TST, anyway). But HLV didn't portray Mary as a villain, just a very desperate person, and Sherlock forgave her, so that should have been enough for me. Point is, I get why people obsess over the little things - it's because we care so much about the show - but I also think the writers deserve more credit than they are currently getting over series 4.
  17. Actually, no. I've been thinking all along that Sherlock's fate was to end up alone and lonely. Now he texts a domin8trix and plays with babies, and just might have turned soft enough to be with Molly. No, really didn't see that coming at all, to be honest. What I expected was the Sherlock we saw facing down Ajay, declaring Mary was under his protection and acting like he could do it all, alone. Although I suspect that man is still there. I wanted to see this. After HLV, when the first rumors started to spread that series 4 could be the last, and we all started talking about what we wanted from it, I said I wanted a) for Mary to be out of the picture, as she was too large a character, b} for John to move back into Baker Street, and c) for the show to end with Sherlock and John going off on another case together, so that it would feel like the story was never really finished. Certain people on this forum claimed that would never happen... :P ;) and I believed them
  18. Awwwww :P :D I can't help it; I'm a sucker for happy endings! Or happy beginnings... As you said:
  19. I too found the guy sweet, and I think he genuinely cared about Soo Lin - that's why he showed up on her doorstep; he was concerned. So... second night of my Sherlock rewatch - at this rate I will have seen all the episodes again within 13 days :( Oh, well (imagine me saying that like Moriarty). This episode seems to have a purpose in showing that Sherlock, while brilliant, sometimes can't see what's staring him right in the face. I can think of the following examples: - Sherlock and John bump into each other in Chinatown, and Sherlock immediately starts rambling, not bothering to check with John. It turns out that John knows something Sherlock doesn't. - When the graffiti has been painted over, Sherlock is busy trying to get John to maximise his visual memory - very funny, by the way Meanwhile, John has taken a photo (smart move). - Sarah, not Sherlock, first discovers that Soo Lin had begun to decifer the code. I love how shocked Sherlock is when she points him to it.
  20. I respectfully disagree. The relationships are very much changed in, to me, very important and in most cases very satisfactory ways. Sherlock is no longer under Mycroft's thumb. That is huge. He's kicked him out of his mind palace, he's told him, to his face, that he's beginning to doubt he's all that clever and he is asking other people to look after him now instead of being looked after by Big Brother all the time himself. Sherlock finally understands that Mycroft is only human like the rest of the world, that he is not, in fact, always right, that he makes mistakes, quite big ones sometimes, and that his advice is often rubbish, especially when it comes to dealing with other people. He no longer has any reason to feel inferior towards him. Sherlock understands that Molly loves him. He might not return her feelings in a romantic way and he might not desire her body, but his respect and affection and gratitude for that love has grown large enough that he's an emotional wreck after having been manipulated into toying with her feelings. And this from the man who did nothing but toy with and exploit her feelings for six entire episodes, if not more! Sherlock realizes and even (almost) admits that Irene Adler is one hell of a sexy woman and that he "loves to ignore her texts" as Moffat put it. He doesn't seem to be beating himself up over this weakness all day long, either. He has finally learned that pretending not to know Lestrade's first name isn't funny any more. And finally, Sherlock and John. You know, I am deeply sorry for all the fans who are so disappointed in how their relationship (hasn't) developed, but personally, I don't quite understand what all the disappointment is about. For me, their story is a love story and it's been a long, complicated, often stormy, very intense and finally rewarding one. They were never like the original Holmes and Watson until this point. Sherlock was awful to John until he returned from the dead and probably got the shock of his life in not being welcomed back with open arms and clapped on the back about how hilarious his little deception was and John mostly acted as if he'd rather have nothing to do with Sherlock and that he was drawn to his side against his will and better judgment. It took Sherlock five episodes to so much as admit John was a friend. It took him three more to get to the point where he realizes they could, in the absence of a more accurate word to describe what they have, be called best friends. And it took the two of them three seasons and one Christmas Special to become the Holmes and Watson I grew up with - the unquestioningly loyal, unashamedly affectionate and inseparable companions who knew that they could rely on each other at all times, no matter what. Maybe I am over-interpreting, but we've heard Sherlock yell "John!" pretty often now over the course of our fandom journey, because John has had to play the damsel in distress and awful lot and Mary wasn't exactly suited to relieve him of that duty. To me, it always used to sound not only like "oh no, here we go again, please stay alive" but also like "oh shit, I am feeling something for another human being and it scares me". In The Final Problem, Sherlock seems totally okay with feeling for other people. He wants to get John out of that well but he doesn't seem disconcerted any more that this is his top priority and that the knowledge of his friend being in danger is upsetting to him. (Btw, every time I see an old episode now and John is decked out in explosives, held hostage by crazy Chinese gangsters or half-conscious in a bonfire, I will picture little Sherlock with his pirate costume running around in the tall grass looking frantically for Redbeard. And my heart will break. No wonder his feelings were themselves terrifying for him, they were associated with horrible childhood trauma and he didn't even remember why). I don't think they are romantically involved or ever will be any more than I think the original characters were (meaning I'm like 98% sure but not completely because you never know) and it doesn't matter to me either. But if you want to imagine them kissing? I don't see anything in the ending that could stop you. Go right ahead. Where is the 'love' button?! I need a love button!!! Seriously, reading a post like this is absolutely fantastic, and I wish I could express myself as eloquently as you do, but I will have to make do with saying that I 100 % agree - with everyting! The character development on this show is incredible. It moves me so much, and TFP is deeply satisfying, because it does put the relationships into their right place for me. It also makes gives me a new perspective on Sherlock. I imagine him as a child, listening to his older brother talking about how it's best not to care so much. I picture him locking away his feelings and focusing on his brain work. I see him competing with Mycroft, feeling inferior, and finally having enough of big brother - and he finds himself a flat in London from which he can work, on his own, in a self-created job with no competition, and in which everyone is impressed by him. The fact that they are also appalled by him just makes it easier to remain detached. It has made me realise that the building of the friendship between Sherlock and John was very slow... and that makes sense now. When I first watched TSoT, I was surprised that Sherlock didn't realise that he was John's best friend. And in TEH I was shocked that he couldn't see - at first - how badly he had hurt John. But now it all makes sense. Series 4 has just helped so many things fall into place for me. I gotta love it!
  21. Well, we do see him watching crap telly in TGG And now we've also seen him on Twitter (sorry, that's a spoiler, but not really an important one). Watched ASiP again last night - rewatching everything from start to finish is one my methods of coping with Sherlock withdrawal symptoms - and it's a bit strange seeing that high functioning sociopath after just watching series 4. It also gives me a new perspective to the man we see in the early episodes, but I will take that discussion elsewhere. I've wathed this episode so many times, probably at least 20, and I still enjoy it. That's good TV!
  22. I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread, but I don't think the following links have been posted. They are both Moriarty-related in some way. First, there's an Easter Egg(?) or something similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4zUihgtB8k. The other one is a funny compilation of people's reactions to Moriarty in The Final Problem
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