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American Villains -- or Not


Carol the Dabbler

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I've noticed that when a British movie needs a stereotypical "bad because they're bad" villain, they often make the character an American (and I've heard complaints that the reverse is true as well). One example would of course be the presumed CIA agent in "Scandal." Not only is the actor from the US, the character is explicitly American (Sherlock mentions this several times).

Here's what puzzles me. As far as I know, the CIA agent is a "made up" character (i.e., he has no counterpart in the canon). However, there are at least two major American antagonists from the original Conan Doyle stories that have already appeared in Sherlock -- but in the show, neither the characters nor the actors were Americans. The first was Jefferson Hope (Jeff the cabbie) in "Study," originally from St. Louis, Missouri, and the other was Irene Adler of New Jersey.

Any ideas as to why?

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All kinds of theories, of course, one being that how many Americans are actually employed in England right now especially as cab drivers and such? And I do understand that in many ways our believe in realism is to be suspended here, Irene could still have been American....I guess one would have to know what kind of plot bunnies are hopping about in the minds of Gatiss and Moffat to get the real skinny.

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I guess my main gripe is that in British shows and movies, the American villains always seem to be the one-dimensional eee-ville type, while antagonists with any sort of real character (like Sherlock's Jeff and Irene) are British.  That doesn't seem to be the case with American productions, where British villains are often nicely complex.

 

But I'm working from a limited data set, and would welcome some counterexamples!

 

And you're right, I can't really say for sure that Lara Pulver wasn't playing Irene as an American.  (Her accent didn't strike me as definitively either British or American.)  But if so, they certainly didn't make a point of it, as they did with the CIA guy.  And Jeff the cabbie was blatantly British!

 

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I guess my main gripe is that in British shows and movies, the American villains always seem to be the one-dimensional eee-ville type, while antagonists with any sort of real character (like Sherlock's Jeff and Irene) are British.  That doesn't seem to be the case with American productions, where British villains are often nicely complex.

 

But I'm working from a limited data set, and would welcome some counterexamples!

 

And you're right, I can't really say for sure that Lara Pulver wasn't playing Irene as an American.  (Her accent didn't strike me as definitively either British or American.)  But if so, they certainly didn't make a point of it, as they did with the CIA guy.  And Jeff the cabbie was definitely British!

 

Hey, whatever your update was really messed up the forum. The quote takes you to a review of the posts with no reply box, and if you try and reply, well, see my next post - not anything I intended, just copied the above. I presume someone else has already informed you, but - best to be safe.

 

Edited by Carol the Dabbler:  The original post was just the quote.  I've added AllIn1's comment from the Report Center.  Note to Undead Medic -- I tried to append this Reason for Edit in the usual way, but the "Add the 'Edit by' line" box kept unchecking itself.

 

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Hey, whatever your update was really messed up the forum. The quote takes you to a review of the posts with no reply box, and if you try and reply, well, see my next post - not anything I intended, just copied the above. I presume someone else has already informed you, but - best to be safe.

 

 

There appear to have been some changes to the forum software today.  I had already noticed that there's now a new "share" button (that sideways "V" just to the right of each post number).  Also, the "quote" function seems a bit different now. ( I'm trying desperately to remember what the resulting reply box used to look like!)  But I'm using that function now to reply to you, so we'll see what happens.

 

Added:  Seems to have worked.  It's possible that you posted (or tried to) when the software update was in a transitional phase.  Or it's possible that your system had gotten into a weird state.  If the former, Undead Medic may come along soon and explain the situation.  If the latter, things may be all better next time you boot.

 

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Still testing:

 

I guess my main gripe is that in British shows and movies, the American villains always seem to be the one-dimensional eee-ville type, while antagonists with any sort of real character (like Sherlock's Jeff and Irene) are British.  That doesn't seem to be the case with American productions, where British villains are often nicely complex.

 

But I'm working from a limited data set, and would welcome some counterexamples!

 

And you're right, I can't really say for sure that Lara Pulver wasn't playing Irene as an American.  (Her accent didn't strike me as definitively either British or American.)  But if so, they certainly didn't make a point of it, as they did with the CIA guy.  And Jeff the cabbie was definitely British!

 


Of course, you said it was my prior post that caused you the problem, so I'm trying that one now.  Wish me luck!

 

Added:  That seems fine too.  Please let me know whether the problem persists after you restart your system.

 

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We have implemented what we hope is a solution to this problem. If anyone has any other problems posting then drop us an email at admins@sherlockforum.com and we'll look into it further.

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  • 7 months later...

I've noticed that when a British movie needs a stereotypical "bad because they're bad" villain, they often make the character an American (and I've heard complaints that the reverse is true as well). One example would of course be the presumed CIA agent in "Scandal." The actor is British, but the character is explicitly American (Sherlock mentions this several times).

 

Here's what puzzles me. As far as I know, the CIA agent is a "made up" character (i.e., he has no counterpart in the canon). However, there are at least two major American antagonists from the original Conan Doyle stories that have already appeared in Sherlock -- but in the show, neither the characters nor the actors were Americans. The first was Jefferson Hope (Jeff the cabbie) in "Study," originally from St. Louis, Missouri, and the other was Irene Adler of New Jersey.

 

Any ideas as to why?

 

 

I guess my main gripe is that in British shows and movies, the American villains always seem to be the one-dimensional eee-ville type, while antagonists with any sort of real character (like Sherlock's Jeff and Irene) are British.  That doesn't seem to be the case with American productions, where British villains are often nicely complex.

 

But I'm working from a limited data set, and would welcome some counterexamples!

 

And you're right, I can't really say for sure that Lara Pulver wasn't playing Irene as an American.  (Her accent didn't strike me as definitively either British or American.)  But if so, they certainly didn't make a point of it, as they did with the CIA guy.  And Jeff the cabbie was blatantly British!

 

 

Thank you! I was afraid that I was the only one who had noticed this trend! I first noticed it when watching Doctor Who... several of the cheesy, one-dimensional bad guys are American, or American characters are treated with mocking. I find myself making an effort not to be insulted! LOL 

 

I do hope that this is a coincidence, and not a portrayal of how we are viewed by the rest of the world.   :(

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Thank you! I was afraid that I was the only one who had noticed this trend! I first noticed it when watching Doctor Who... several of the cheesy, one-dimensional bad guys are American, or American characters are treated with mocking. I find myself making an effort not to be insulted! LOL 

 

Thank you -- been a while since I posted that, and I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one!

 

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Thank you! I was afraid that I was the only one who had noticed this trend! I first noticed it when watching Doctor Who... several of the cheesy, one-dimensional bad guys are American, or American characters are treated with mocking. I find myself making an effort not to be insulted! LOL 

 

Thank you -- been a while since I posted that, and I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one!

 

 

Haha, yes I'm playing catch up! A lot of people are probably going to be getting replies to months-old posts over the next few days!  :lol:

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Hey, that's great!  Please feel free to reply to anything at all.  It's good to see some of those interesting old threads coming back to life!

 

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I guess my main gripe is that in British shows and movies, the American villains always seem to be the one-dimensional eee-ville type....

 

I've been asked (in a PM) to provide some examples of those one-dimensional American villains in British productions.  At the moment I'm coming up with only two, so I'd appreciate some input from the rest of you.  Karie?  Or anyone else?

 

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Seems to me that making the antagonist from “Scandal” an American CIA agent served an actual purpose rather than being thrown in to knock Americans. The revelation that powerful American forces were also after Irene Adler proved she had something bigger and of greater international significance than some naughty pictures of a minor British royal. As Sherlock rightly points out, the Americans wouldn’t give a rat’s arse about that.

 

So why America rather than some other random country? Simple: this had to do with a terror plot, and America is the number-one target for terrorists who oppose the “great Satans” of the West. Other countries get attacked too, but America is the big fish.

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Well, I sure can't argue with that -- nicely stated, BlueTiger!  :thumbsup:

 

And given that the character needs to be a CIA agent (or something of the sort), then it's also a given that he's relatively one-dimensional.  In fact, Nielson actually exhibits more humor than any on-duty government agent I've ever encountered.

 

But darn it, there goes one of my examples!

 

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  • 3 months later...

It seems to me, the Americans like their 'baddy' to be British so the American people won't be upset..........

 

  • Alan Rickman -  Die Hard
  • Jeremy Irons - Die Hard 3
  • Benedict Cumberbatch - Star Trek: Into Darkness

There's probably loads more.........

 

:picard::comp2:  :jedi:  :axe:  :shoot:  :brit: 

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Reminds me of this Jaguar commercial (sadly, no Khan, but at least Tom Hiddleston):

 

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It seems to me, the Americans like their 'baddy' to be British so the American people won't be upset..........

 

  • Alan Rickman -  Die Hard
  • Jeremy Irons - Die Hard 3

 

The actors were British, but their characters were German. :D

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It seems to me, the Americans like their 'baddy' to be British so the American people won't be upset..........

  • Alan Rickman -  Die Hard
  • Jeremy Irons - Die Hard 3
  • Benedict Cumberbatch - Star Trek: Into Darkness
There's probably loads more.........

 

:picard::comp2:  :jedi:  :axe:  :shoot:  :brit:

 

Tom Hardy, Tom Hiddleston; and the 'daddy' of them all-Anthony Hopkins.

 

But to correct the OP the actor playing the CIA agent is an american.

Edited by Carol the Dabbler
Repaired end-quote code
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... to correct the OP the actor playing the CIA agent is an american.

 

Thanks for pointing that out, shoot999.  I believe the episode commentary says something to the effect that the actor "has made a career of playing Americans" -- which I took to mean that he is merely pretending -- but IMDb says:

 

Todd Boyce was born in Columbus, Ohio.  He was raised in upstate New York, Germany, Chicago and Brazil. At age 16 Todd moved with his family to Australia ....

 

Todd has worked extensively in film, television and theatre in Australia, America and in the United Kingdom. His work continues to take him all over the world.

 

I have corrected my original post.

 

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I think what they were trying to say was that he is the 'go to guy' when you need an american for a brit programme. He has been in many of the british soaps and recently starred with Amanda Abbington in 'Mr Selfridge'.

The episode concerned revolves around a visit to the store by a certain Arthur Conan Doyle; played by John Sessions. (Kenny Prince from The Great Game.)

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It seems to me, the Americans like their 'baddy' to be British so the American people won't be upset..........

Nah, I just think to our American ears a cultured British accent makes a person sound more intelligent. And we're more scared of smart bad guys than dumb ones. Because, y'know, we're so dumb ourselves. :-)

 

I was watching something the other day and two British actors were playing Americans. I cringed, cuz their characters sounded like morons. ("Yikes, is that how we sound to everyone else!! I'm so embarrassed.....") :)

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British actors in general probably don't do realistic American accents any better than American actors in general do realistic British accents.  In both cases, they tend to focus on the obvious, stereotypical aspects of both the accent and the perceived national characteristics.

 

So no, that's not how we sound.  It's how they think we sound.  Not sure that's much better, though!

 

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British actors in general probably don't do realistic American accents any better than American actors in general do realistic British accents.  In both cases, they tend to focus on the obvious, stereotypical aspects of both the accent and the perceived national characteristics.

 

So no, that's not how we sound.  It's how they think we sound.  Not sure that's much better, though!

True, true, and these were New York accents, which I think are harder to do convincingly anyway. I've noticed a lot of British actors can do a pretty mean southern accent, tho. :-)

 

 

I don't think I'll ever get over Kevin Costner as Robin Hood, gaghhghgg....

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