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On 10/15/2019 at 3:10 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

We end up doing that a lot, but the problem is, how do you know whether it's significant or not if you don't know what they said?  Or even if you do know -- because some seemingly insignificant comment could turn out to be very significant in the end.

If we notice that they bring out something out of the blue in the later scene, that the writer seems to expect viewers to have some knowledge of, than that is the missing piece. Some relation could be made from familiar setting, objects and character too. Oh that weird ordinary guy was shown for a reason, oh that is to explain the other set of figurines they found earlier or there is something wrong with this place etc.

 

@absolete 

I found that bookstores are dissappearing and it's not good. Used to hang out at Border (even when I'm not buying). There is something comfortable about the smell of new books. Library is not the same anymore too.

 

@mall

I like weird store that sells unique stuffs and they are still around, but not much. I have to admit I'd rather go to malls that sell cheaply made stuff (although I'd prefer decent quality) than high-end mall when I can't afford anything and everything seems like from different planets, like torn jeans for couple of hundred bucks just because of brand, and way too pissed-off looking models in their poster.

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1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

I found that bookstores are dissappearing and it's not good. Used to hang out at Border (even when I'm not buying). There is something comfortable about the smell of new books. Library is not the same anymore too.

We still have a couple bookstores, although I think they survive mostly by selling something other than books. Like coffee, for example. The used bookstore does a smashup business, however. 

I was shocked to discover there's only two furniture stores in our area, both of which sell pretty poorly made stuff. Apparently even furniture is ordered online now. How are you supposed to know if the couch is comfortable unless you can actually sit on it first? It boggles my mind.

Just saw that now drone deliveries are going to be a thing. Wonderful. Can't wait to have dozens of those things buzzing over my head all day. Delightful.

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33 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Just saw that now drone deliveries are going to be a thing. Wonderful. Can't wait to have dozens of those things buzzing over my head all day. Delightful.

If this happens, I feel a bit sad for future people who will never know the sky without them, just as I can hardly go anywhere without seeing telephone wires draped across the skyline, except in a few remote places.  I’m not against technological progress in general, and I’m certainly thankful for electricity, but some things can be an eyesore in what would otherwise be a very beautiful place.

 

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41 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I was shocked to discover there's only two furniture stores in our area, both of which sell pretty poorly made stuff. Apparently even furniture is ordered online now. How are you supposed to know if the couch is comfortable unless you can actually sit on it first? It boggles my mind.

I don’t understand that either.  There are some things I won’t buy without testing them first.

Regarding bookstores, Barnes and Noble still does pretty well here, as well as Half-Price Books.  Bookstores in general do seem to be slowly dying though, along with much else.

 

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1 minute ago, Artemis said:

I don’t understand that either.  There are some things I won’t buy without testing them first.

Same here. Especially big ticket items. I can't fathom buying a car online, for example. How do you know if it "feels" right if you've never driven it? Or are people so used to everything being disposable junk these days that they just don't care? It boggles my mind.

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2 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

I have to admit I'd rather go to malls that sell cheaply made stuff (although I'd prefer decent quality) than high-end mall when I can't afford anything and everything seems like from different planets, like torn jeans for couple of hundred bucks just because of brand, and way too pissed-off looking models in their poster.

Ditto, I have no use (and no money) for high-end things.  I am more careful these days about buying cheaply made things though, especially clothes and furniture.  If I buy them too cheaply made then they fall apart within 6 months, and it ends up being a waste of money anyway.  I have found that thrift stores can be a good place to find inexpensive but well-made things, because they are older, and in my experience, things were just made better 50 years ago.  New and cheap clothes from Walmart, on the other hand, can only handle a few wears and a soft breeze before they fall apart.

 

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4 hours ago, Artemis said:

I have found that thrift stores can be a good place to find inexpensive but well-made things, because they are older, and in my experience, things were just made better 50 years ago.

Me too.  Though I suspect that A} there was actually quite a lot of junk being made back then, but it hasn't survived the intervening decades (any more than most Kmart stuff will be around much longer), and B} there's still good stuff being made today, but we choose not to spend that much money on it (plus it can be hard to distinguish from shoddy stuff with a fancy label).

Lately I find myself doing most of my shopping (other than groceries of course) at places like Half Price Books and Good Will.  They're more expensive than yard sales, but then they've already sifted out the trash for me.  And I will, after careful consideration, occasionally splurge on a high-end item (or more likely, a medium-end knockoff), if I can't find anything more affordable that does the job.

5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Just saw that now drone deliveries are going to be a thing. Wonderful. Can't wait to have dozens of those things buzzing over my head all day.

How are all those drones supposed to avoid crashing into each other?  OK, the good ones must have proximity alarms already, so they don't crash into buildings and whatnot.  But I still cringe at the thought.

5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

... are people so used to everything being disposable junk these days that they just don't care?

Something like that -- though I put equal blame on the manufacturers, who have discovered that people will buy stuff that works well when new but is not repairable, so that's what a lot of them make nowadays.

And in some cases, it seems that the manufacturers are disguising the fact that their products are repairable, presumably in order to sell new items when the old ones break down.  I bought an electric spice/coffee mill that worked very well until one end of the blade broke off (admittedly because I was grinding big honking pills with it, so I don't blame the product).  I asked the manufacturer where it could be repaired, and they replied that the blade isn't replaceable.  This turned out to be nonsense, because there are very clear and plausible directions online for removing the blade assembly -- so it's just that the manufacturer would rather sell an entire new spice mill and therefore doesn't offer replacement blade assemblies.  I was in dire need of a working grinder, so I bought another of the same model (they're quite affordable, even though well made), but I'm keeping the old one, figuring that if the new one breaks, it's not likely to be the blade (since I'm no longer grinding pills), so I can supply my own spare parts.

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On 10/20/2019 at 9:43 PM, Arcadia said:

I was shocked to discover there's only two furniture stores in our area, both of which sell pretty poorly made stuff. Apparently even furniture is ordered online now. How are you supposed to know if the couch is comfortable unless you can actually sit on it first? It boggles my mind

Some furnitures like tables make sense,  I think. But couch, yes, you have to try it. Mmmmmm... couch.....I have been living couchless for.. almost twenty years, really miss it.

Actually I still don't understand online shoe shopping. Comfortability of shoes is the most important thing in the word.

On 10/20/2019 at 9:43 PM, Arcadia said:

Just saw that now drone deliveries are going to be a thing.

I have a hope that it wouldn't do well. Having access to air space would be too invasive for privacy and security. But drone and flying cars with assigned paths, that is likely, I think, imo, imho, imhho. 

I don't know them, my mom's friend just lost a twenty-five years old son to road accident. I can't imagine how she feels. Anything for future road safety, to avoid these tragic deaths, and so I don't have to see dog and cat's road kills anymore.

On 10/20/2019 at 10:51 PM, Artemis said:

am more careful these days about buying cheaply made things though, especially clothes and furniture.  If I buy them too cheaply made then they fall apart within 6 months, and it ends up being a waste of money anyway.

Oh I agree, especially furniture. Always tried to buy for long term durability, but not unreasonable priced ones.

Having said that, so I bought a stool. A simple, tiny stool, to help me rest my butt when I do work on the floor. *** I have one, but it was multi-functioned as bucket. I have buckets, but I placed my carwashing kit inside when I'm not washing car. I have another bucket, but it's upstairs and I need it too often to bring it down everytime. I have another stool, but it's slightly too high for the purpose I want. Anyway... XD

I bought a simple looking stool, the one that looks and feels similar with my childhood's one. A four-legged plastic stool. It's durable (as I remember, and as I had tested it again with my current built). It's simple, nostalgic and cheap. It's secondary, tertiary stool anyway. You see, I have another stool ***..

So, as tertiary stool, it was sitting XD unloved for a while, until finally one day I needed it to work on the floor. I was making something that would save me couple of hundred bucks (instead of buying) and the finishing had something to do with oil paint (? Not oil painting kind, more like for metal painting). So I happily sat on it and started to mix my paint. Then one of the legs bent (it was a subtle sabotage attempt I didn't suspect anything here), causing me to lost my balance and there goes the can of thick, hard to clean paint, on the floor. As I looked in horror, and grabbed an old T-shirt (that I had re-purposed for my dog spare blankie. You see, my dog has a blankie...). So I grabbed this tertiary blankie and tried to clean some of the spilled paint, at least before it got into other stuff, and stopped half way because, wait, this paint is totally okay to be used as the base, don't waste it! 

So I hold the blankie with my left hand, and with my other hand I started to paint. Then one of the legs bent again (BENT, IT NEVER BREAKS IT LOOKS OKAY AND INNOCENT), and the paint on that blankie left a long trail of thick brown paint (hard to clean if I didn't make it obvious yet) on the side of my motorcycle, which was parked next to me. And I had started to get suspicious with the evil stool. As I was sitting pissed and confused,  one of the legs bent again, and the magic stool flew across the garden. I have anger management issue.

Finished the work well on the original stool.

 

On 10/21/2019 at 3:52 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

Something like that -- though I put equal blame on the manufacturers, who have discovered that people will buy stuff that works well when new but is not repairable, so that's what a lot of them make nowadays.

I lived in a place where repair would cost me more than buying new. Same with relocating, especially fridge. It's painful. 

Also, some manufacturer's salespersons admit to me that the brand purposely made new things less durable now so that it wouldn't be too long before people need new product. I made it a point to ask about this now, and the answer is almost always the same. Actually, one of the famous brand who admit to it was Apple, the ones I asked are mostly appliances. 

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5 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

I still don't understand online shoe shopping. Comfortability of shoes is the most important thing in the world.

That puzzles me too, although there are a few brands where I know my size and can order online with confidence.  But even one of those recently changed their fit (fortunately making it a bit looser than my ideal rather than a bit tighter).

I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the word "comfortability" before, but it makes perfect sense, and may mean something a bit different from just "comfort."  OK, here's a blog about it.

5 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

... flying cars with assigned paths, that is likely, I think....  [....]  Anything for future road safety, to avoid these tragic deaths, and so I don't have to see dog and cat's road kills anymore.

"They" have been seriously predicting flying cars for at least 70 years now, and I think I'm just as glad such things haven't yet come about.  Drivers seem to have enough trouble keeping their cars on a two-dimensional road and in the correct lane, even when there are obvious stripes.  Heaven knows how they'd deal with an extra dimension and no physical markers.  The day may yet come, but I don't think flying cars will be safe until they can be largely automated (which is, unfortunately, another kettle of fish with its own potential dangers).

5 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

oil paint (? Not oil painting kind, more like for metal painting)

The usual term for that sort of thing here in the US is "oil-based paint" (as opposed to "water-based paint").

5 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

I had started to get suspicious with the evil stool. As I was sitting pissed and confused,  one of the legs bent again, and the magic stool flew across the garden. I have anger management issue.

I would pay good money to see the movie.   :D   How's your motorcycle now?

 

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Good grief, VBS, I'm surprised you survived to tell the tale!  That kind of thing makes me want to jump in front of a speeding car. Then leap into it, turn it around, and run over the guy who manufactured the stool. 

I don't get the shoe thing either … I generally have to try on everything in the store before I find something that fits me right. I have friends that order their shoes from catalogs, and if they don't fit, they send them back. I'd need an army of drones if I did it that way. I can only assume their feet are, er, less sensitive than mine.

Right now I'm looking for a house to buy. So far I haven't found anything that suits me. Some people have started telling me I'm being too choosy. Really? I'll be spending literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I don't get to buy something I actually like?  Commerce makes no sense to me.....

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12 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Right now I'm looking for a house to buy. So far I haven't found anything that suits me. Some people have started telling me I'm being too choosy. Really? I'll be spending literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I don't get to buy something I actually like?

It's not only the money.  You may well be living in this house for the rest of your life, so it's best to find something you're comfortable with.

Though these days a lot of people seem to change houses roughly as often as they used to trade in their cars.

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16 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Some people have started telling me I'm being too choosy.

The same is usually told to singles.
I mean, WHEN should one be hellishly picky, if not by choice of a potentially life-long partner one is about to share everything with?
Not really applicable to my situation, but I find saying this to anyone really stupid. :D

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17 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

It's not only the money.  You may well be living in this house for the rest of your life, so it's best to find something you're comfortable with.

Though these days a lot of people seem to change houses roughly as often as they used to trade in their cars.

Well, yeah, that's the other thing … I would like this next house to be my last house. So a three-story town home isn't exactly appealing to me, y'know? Neither is a 45 minute commute. But those seem about my two choices right now.  I just hope some different options open up in the spring.

 

52 minutes ago, J.P. said:

The same is usually told to singles.
I mean, WHEN should one be hellishly picky, if not by choice of a potentially life-long partner one is about to share everything with?

Right on, sister! :D 

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31 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

... a three-story town home isn't exactly appealing to me, y'know? Neither is a 45 minute commute. But those seem about my two choices right now.

If those were my only choices, and if the 45-minute-commute house is otherwise desirable, I'd go with the commute, because I'd assume that I'd be retiring fairly soon, in which case the commute would be irrelevant.  I'd definitely avoid the stairs, which are bound to be a problem every now and then (e.g., sprained ankle), even if I retained long-term mobility.  One other thing I would tend to avoid would be anywhere too far from basic shopping, unless there's public transportation (at least senior-center van service) or home delivery, just in case I have to stop driving at some point.  A person still needs groceries!

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1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

If those were my only choices, and if the 45-minute-commute house is otherwise desirable, I'd go with the commute, because I'd assume that I'd be retiring fairly soon, in which case the commute would be irrelevant.  I'd definitely avoid the stairs, which are bound to be a problem every now and then (e.g., sprained ankle), even if I retained long-term mobility.  One other thing I would tend to avoid would be anywhere too far from basic shopping, unless there's public transportation (at least senior-center van service) or home delivery, just in case I have to stop driving at some point.  A person still needs groceries!

Well, that's part of the problem … retirement (barring any misfortune) is still a few years off for me. One or two years of commuting, I could probably manage, but after that … nah. Especially the way traffic is increasing around here. And these places are pretty far out in "the country", although I suspect basic amenities are readily available … there's at least a gas station/convenience store in most of the small communities out there. And I'd be cut off from everyone I know …. sigh. It's hard for me to make new friends, I really hate to lose the few I've got. (Although that seems to be slowly happening anyway … :cry:

But even given all that … I basically agree with you. Every time I carry the groceries up the stairs in my current house, I fluidly curse the nitwit who designed it. (Or would, if I could spare the breath. :smile:  ) Compared to that, a shack at the end of a dirt road in the remote wilds of Virginia looks pretty good. :D 

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4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I'd be cut off from everyone I know …. sigh. It's hard for me to make new friends, I really hate to lose the few I've got.

Oh dear, that's a very good point, as I've learned the hard way.  When you're in your twenties and move to a new area, it's easy enough to make new friends, because just about everybody your age is also looking to make new friends.  But once you've got a few years under your belt, it gets harder and harder because the adults in your new neighborhood already HAVE friends.  So it's best to stay within friendship distance, if at all possible.

4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

One or two years of commuting, I could probably manage, but after that … nah. Especially the way traffic is increasing around here.

Another excellent point.  When we lived in Ventura County, I quickly rejected the idea of working in Los Angeles, because even though it's a nominal one-hour commute, the traffic is so unpredictable, that it could just as easily be a three-hour commute.  And even if it really was "only" an hour, an hour in heavy traffic wouldn't be at all like my old one-hour commute through small-town Massachusetts (which I generally enjoyed).

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Another place just became available out that way, even cheaper than the other two I was looking at. *sigh*  Part of me says it's stupid to keep passing these up, they won't last forever …..

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2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Another place just became available out that way, even cheaper than the other two I was looking at. *sigh*  Part of me says it's stupid to keep passing these up, they won't last forever …..

Out in the boonies, you mean?  You might want to go out to that area and pretend that you're living there.  Imagine what it'd be like doing whatever routine maintenance (mowing, etc.) might be required, especially a few decades from now.  Look around to see where you'd be able to find the sort of groceries, etc., that you're used to getting.  Check for local art-related resources (supply stores, galleries, places where you might be able to teach).  Would you likely be glad that you had moved there?

Also, I assume that three-story townhouse you mentioned was a condo, so you could also check out other condos in your current area.  With any luck you'll find that there are some single-story garden apartments.  Imagine what it'd be like living cheek-to-jowl with your neighbors, and what it'd be like not having a yard where you could do whatever it is that you like to do in your yard.  How would you be likely to feel about that place after you'd lived there for a while?

Just about any place is gonna have its pros and its cons, of course.  And probably everything I've said has already crossed your mind.

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Actually, I think the three-story place was a townhome; the monthly fees at most of the condos are too prohibitive. But I'd prefer a condo if I could afford one … they tend to have more landscaping and lots of common space. The townhomes, you might get a 10x10', fenced in backyard, and all your views are of the parking lots. Been there, done that, ain't doing it again.

There was a perfect place back in March … one level condo, end unit, walking distance of work, nice common space, low fees … but I didn't have any money at that point. Gone within a week, as most affordable places are. Nothing's opened up there since. Sigh.

One level anything is extremely rare in this area, except for older homes. By older, I mean 1950s or so. I'd like to have one of those … the trees have all grown up since then, plenty of privacy … but they don't come up on the market very often. And who knows what kind of maintenance problems they might have.....

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4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I think the three-story place was a townhome; the monthly fees at most of the condos are too prohibitive.

Those terms must be used differently in your area from what I'm used to.  Where I've lived, a condo unit can be just about any style of dwelling, from an apartment in a high-rise building to a separate house; the term condo refers to the shared ownership (and, as you say, fees).  And a townhome (or townhouse) refers to a house that's attached to others like it on one or more sides; it can be a condominium unit or it can be separately owned (house and land).  (And any separately owned dwelling can be part of a homeowner's association, which generally restricts what you can do to the outside, and may provide a certain amount of outdoor maintenance -- for a fee, of course!)

4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

One level anything is extremely rare in this area, except for older homes. By older, I mean 1950s or so. I'd like to have one of those … the trees have all grown up since then, plenty of privacy … but they don't come up on the market very often. And who knows what kind of maintenance problems they might have....

It's my impression (based on not much evidence, I'll admit) that those older houses are still around because they were the best-built ones of their era.  You go back just a few decades, though, and you may find that the plumbing and wiring need to be replaced.

Newer houses are, well, newer -- but even with building codes, some houses are simply built better than others.  There's one just up the road from us that we watched being built five or ten years ago, and there's no tar paper under the shingles; even if those are self-sealing shingles (I have no idea), they were installed in the fall, so they're not likely to have sealed very well, because that takes hot sun -- and I tend to doubt that the rest of that house's construction is any better.  So who knows how long it'll hold together?

In short, just about any "used" house is likely to need some work done.  And even if you hire someone to check it out, you're likely to get some surprises after you move in.  Kinda like a used car.

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On 11/7/2019 at 11:58 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

Those terms must be used differently in your area from what I'm used to.  Where I've lived, a condo unit can be just about any style of dwelling, from an apartment in a high-rise building to a separate house; the term condo refers to the shared ownership (and, as you say, fees).  And a townhome (or townhouse) refers to a house that's attached to others like it on one or more sides; it can be a condominium unit or it can be separately owned (house and land).  (And any separately owned dwelling can be part of a homeowner's association, which generally restricts what you can do to the outside, and may provide a certain amount of outdoor maintenance -- for a fee, of course!)

I admit being confused by the terms myself when I first started looking … and the terms definitely aren't used consistently. But around here, townhomes generally mean what you describe, but are definitely separately owned, and all maintenance is on you. They may or may not have HOA fees to maintain common areas (mostly the parking lot), but mostly they don't. Usually there's a little patio area with the home, if not an actual yard.

Condos, on the other hand, can come in any configuration; there was one that was in the middle of a double row, in the middle of three floors; meaning you would have five neighbors; one below, one above, one behind, and one on each side. A lot of those look like hotels when you're inside them; narrow corridors with a row of doors down either side. But from the outside they're hard to distinguish from townhomes. And many condos are nicer than that, with fewer units per building and lots of green space. And balconies, they almost all have balconies.

The significant difference is that you only own the contents … the condo fees pay for all maintenance and amenities (but not, usually, utilities.) So, essentially, you buy them, then continue to pay rent. It makes no sense to me, given that many don't cost that much less than the townhomes. But some people happily pay for maintenance, evidently. And the HOA fees are less than rent.

There's a new trend now, one which I hope dies soon (or at least radically transforms into something else) ... I think they're called garage townhomes? There's a garage on the bottom, then three floors above that. No yard, no parking lot, no trees, maybe a sidewalk, but no other common space at all. Driving through them is like driving at the bottom of a canyon. And they are painted gunmetal gray, and what they make me think of more than anything is a prison. No color, no free space. On the one hand, it makes sense to me to try to minimize the amount of space given over to parking lots. On the other ... how do your friends come visiting? Where do they park? Where do the kids play? Where do you interact with nature? And why, why does it have to look so grim and punitive? But they've built two huge subdivisions filled with these things so far, and are working on a third. One is next door to the airport, the other is in the middle of the busiest strip mall district. :wacko: They don't come up on my homes search, which means they're on the expensive side, too.

The only other thing being built at that rate is McMansions on 5 or 10-acre lots (although that's slacked off quite a bit from 4-5 years ago). There's a couple of small townhome/condo units going up, and NO new single family, small home developments. None. WTF???? 

 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

there was one that was in the middle of a double row, in the middle of three floors; meaning you would have five neighbors; one below, one above, one behind, and one on each side. A lot of those look like hotels when you're inside them; narrow corridors with a row of doors down either side.

Gahhhh!!!  My claustrophobia!!!!   :blink:

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

the condo fees pay for all maintenance and amenities (but not, usually, utilities.) So, essentially, you buy them, then continue to pay rent. It makes no sense to me,

Well, if you buy a separate house, even after the mortgage is paid off, you're still paying "rent" to the county every six months -- and if you fall behind, they evict you and "rent" the place to someone else.  (Admittedly property taxes aren't nearly as big a chunk as rent.)

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

There's a garage on the bottom, then three floors above that. No yard, no parking lot, no trees, maybe a sidewalk, but no other common space at all. Driving through them is like driving at the bottom of a canyon. And they are painted gunmetal gray, and what they make me think of more than anything is a prison. No color, no free space.

I shall immediately stop bitching about the local housing developments:  People moving to "the country" in order to live in a house that's about ten feet away from an identical house on either side.  Hundreds of acres of them....  But at least they have back yards.  And the colors vary all the way from mushroom to taupe to gray.  :P

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5 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:
1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

there was one that was in the middle of a double row, in the middle of three floors; meaning you would have five neighbors; one below, one above, one behind, and one on each side. A lot of those look like hotels when you're inside them; narrow corridors with a row of doors down either side.

Gahhhh!!!  My claustrophobia!!!!   :blink:

Exactly. And it was no surprise to me to discover that this one was in one of the higher crime areas. If I have to live like that, I may become quite belligerent myself.

6 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

(Admittedly property taxes aren't nearly as big a chunk as rent.)

Especially if you're a senior citizen below a certain (rather healthy) level. Which I will be, fairly soon. Property tax will be the least of my concerns … the internet fee, on the other hand, is a whopper around here..... (and not covered by most HOAs).

11 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I shall immediately stop bitching about the local housing developments:  People moving to "the country" in order to live in a house that's about ten feet away from an identical house on either side.  Hundreds of acres of them....  But at least they have back yards.  And the colors vary all the way from mushroom to taupe to gray.  :P

Might as well. We went through that phase about 20 years ago, and we bitched then … and got the current situation as a result. :wacko: I really thought it couldn't get worse than all that tract housing, but it did.

To be fair, the new plan did achieve one of the desired effects … there's a heck of a lot more green space out this way than there would have been. Of course, it's all private … I think most of us were rather hoping for public parks, not mini estates. But it does keep the traffic down in the western part of the county … at the expense of more traffic on the eastern half, naturally. Can't win for losing.

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