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Probably some place called Baskerville

Which would tie in nicely with "Sherlock" and this movie is full of such ties. And from Season 2 Episode 2 you have this top secret base and they admit freely of doing genetic experimentation at least on animals. But their young guard admits that they are also developing weapons. And Franklin was trying to develop a drug that would turn people into super warriors even if the drug drove the subjects insane and into homicidal maniacs.

 

And these people were supposed to be compliant, highly suggestible, and isn't that what Marcus had tried on Khan using his crew for blackmail purposes?

 

I love these two quotes: "Rats as big as dogs. Dogs......as big as horses."  And Dr. Stapleton's observation:"Listen, if you can imagine it, someone is probably doing it somewhere."

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As for Star Trek, I think if Paramount owns the franchise now, we should just go ahead and write the next episode for them and ship it.

Hey, when ever you're ready. I've always got pen and pencil near at hand.

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... the last time I realized how much Spock's speech ... says about him and the choices he will make (I think) that eventually lead to the Mr. Spock we knew from before - or - and this is what's interesting - away from him.  In a couple more movies we could have a whole new take on Spock. 

 

Seeing Scotty as this hero, standing up to Kirk ... I never saw him as a hero before, yet, it's right in character with what we knew of him from classic ST.  But he's still funny and ...  it's just a really good portrayal.

 

And Kirk ... I think Chris Pine is probably better than he's given credit for, also.

 

They could have just given us a rehash of the original series, but they chose to start over and see where that might take them. Spock hasn't even said "fascinating" yet!

 

I'm much happier with what they've written for Scotty this time, compared to the first movie, where I thought he came across as a bit of a buffoon. I thought Simon Pegg's performance was good in both movies, but I really like how he shows Scotty's more serious side.

 

And I think I've already said this, but I am eternally grateful to Chris Pine for giving me a Kirk I can actually like! (Did I say "like"? Hell, I love him!)

 

 

... thanks so much for the infos, Carol! I was hoping you'd show up here - have you seen the film by now?

 

 wasn't there an Enterprise episode where some Vulcans crashed on Earth in the mid-20th century (?) and one decided to stay...? Given what we saw of Khan fighting, that clandestine project might well have got their hands on and added some Vulcan genes to the mix.

 

Yes, I finally saw the movie.  (But only once -- so far.)

 

I'm not real knowledgeable about Enterprise either, having seen it only when broadcast, but if that did happen, then yes, that could help explain Khan's characteristics.

 

 

"300 years" is a pretty loose designation, could be 263 years or 375 years.  Could be they have changed the way they count years when the countries merged into world government.  I think Hasidic Jews are still counting from King David's reign.

 

True, in TOS, Kirk said the 200 years was an estimate, and the same presumably holds true this time.  However, it doesn't matter what your base year is -- a 200 (or 300) year stretch is still 200 (or 300) years, regardless of whether you're using Christian or Jewish or Chinese names for the years.  So it'd be pretty close to the estimate.

 

 

I think there was some attempt to explain all this "from different planets but can (and will) interbreed" business in TNG - a lonely progenitor race seeding the galaxy or somesuch *pleading eyes towards Carol, again*.

 

I think you're referring to the original-series episode "The Paradise Syndrome" (I've apparently suppressed memory of the title, and had to Google "Kirok"), wherein the Enterprise crew finds American Indians living on an alien planet.  (I suspect this was actually an attempt to save money by using stock Indian teepees and costumes instead of designing a new alien race, but that's not helpful, is it?)

 

There's also Hodgkin's Law of Parallel Plant Development, mentioned (had to Google this too!) in "Bread and Circuses," wherein Kirk and company find a planet with 20th-century technology and ancient Roman politics.  And real life is full of coincidences.  So yes, things in movies can be fairly realistic and still turn out conveniently.

 

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I must admit I'm not much of a Trekker (paging Dr. Carol! :)) but my understanding is that they don't have sufficient control over genetic engineering to do that, even as late as during the DS9 timeline - that's why genetic engineering was still very strictly regulated even then, forbidden except for repairing the most serious of birth defects. There was an episode about Dr. Julian Bashir, who was augmented as a kid, and iirc it ended with some admiral stating that his parents' meddling could well have produced another Khan instead of mild-mannered Julian.

 

So while that would be an ideal solution, it seems beyond Trek-biotech capabilities.

 

Which is so strange considering that we can very nearly do that now. Twenty-five more years at most and designer babies are a given (not arguing the morality, only the bioengineering technology. Although I thought the Eugenics Wars that resulted in Khan and his people were supposed to take place at the end of the 20th century). 

 

 I saw this movie as a period piece with a future world view firmly entrenched in the late 1960's, enlivened with better special effects.

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I think you're referring to the original-series episode "The Paradise Syndrome" (I've apparently suppressed memory of the title, and had to Google "Kirok"), wherein the Enterprise crew finds American Indians living on an alien planet.  (I suspect this was actually an attempt to save money by using stock Indian teepees and costumes instead of designing a new alien race, but that's not helpful, is it?)

 

There's also Hodgkin's Law of Parallel Plant Development, mentioned (had to Google this too!) in "Bread and Circuses," wherein Kirk and company find a planet with 20th-century technology and ancient Roman politics.  And real life is full of coincidences.  So yes, things in movies can be fairly realistic and still turn out conveniently.

 

Was there a similar episode on TOS? My memory is shamefully sketchy when it comes to the original series :(. The one I meant is apparently called The Chase -

!

 

And I'm not sure if and when they'll actually manage flawless designer babies. Julia Mae can probably tell you a lot more about this than I, but iirc a lot of genes are linked (like white cats often being deaf) and, especially if they do use Vulcan genes, to get the strength but not the intense emotion might be a daunting task.

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I find this an oddly depressing conversation.  Fast & Furious opened to a  $97 million dollar week-end, compared to STID in the 85m range.  While we have these interesting conversations about genetics and moral relativism, the vast majority of people want to see bigger smash-bangs.

 

Even some Trekkies (so-called) can't seem to grasp the simple concept of the reboot and keep wanting to criticize the new ST because it isn't exactly like the old ST.

 

As for what I can tell you about genetics, it's that human cloning is already being done, but not openly, with most embryos being destroyed at later and later stages while genetic analysis is done of the results and that they justify messing about with gene splicing in those embryos by the fact that they never are allowed to develop by not being implanted.  Meanwhile, artificial womb technology is on the front burner (supposedly for growing more food animals) . 

 

What we'd actually need to know to safely engineer Khan is ...  well, just mind-bogglingly complex and daunting.   Problem is, you can't genetically-engineer genius because no one knows yet what it is or why it happens.  They can't make Mozarts or Einsteins.  But they could grow bigger, stronger, disease-resistant. 

 

And the problem with that is the Red Queen - sooner or later the viruses catch up, they will produce a virus to which the supermen are not resistant - and because artificial selection would make the gene pool so small, the newer version of chicken pox or athlete's foot could wipe out the species.

 

We are much better off floundering about on our own and letting natural selection take it's messy but somehow sure course to continued survival and change over time. 

 

IMO, anyway.

 

 

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STID has done pretty well at the box office so far, though. Second best opening ever, even adjusted by inflation (and the fact that the first reboot grossed more can be partly chalked up to curiosity and the novelty factor, imho), and from the total grosses it looks poised to easily reach the top in time, partly due to the strong worldwide revenues.

 

About the general public's taste, that's one depressing topic, yes, but it has always been so. I'll let Garak take it from here:

 

post-575-0-94991700-1369899709_thumb.jpg

 

And don't get me started on Trekkers/ies. There's a gaming forum where I used to be a regular for some time, and one post there about STID that stands out in my memory was the poster first proclaiming that he "wasn't a fan of this reboot", then stating that he disliked it because "a reboot was backwards-looking" while "previously Star Trek had progressed". I declined to comment on that, because really, what kind of discourse can you have with such folks?

 

And thanks for your elaborating on genetics :applause:, I knew I could count on you. They're really working on artificial wombs right now? Mind-boggling.

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We are much better off floundering about on our own and letting natural selection take it's messy but somehow sure course...

Because it has been proven time and time again that mutts have less health problems, a stronger immune system and longer lived then most pure breeds. 

 

That being said, there are 73 "sleepers", male and female, and that presents a pretty good starting gene pool even if they where genetically engineered, and probably was supposed to be a "seeding" program. If they can be awoken safely and their more warrior like tendencies harnessed and controlled then could they not be introduced into a broader population, the Vulcan's such as Julia proposes?

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 They're really working on artificial wombs right now? Mind-boggling.

 

Inevitable, really.  Rancher on the plains has a herd of beef cattle.  Spring blizzard takes out 60% of his new calves.  He won't even break even, he lives at the whims of Nature.  He is limited with his best breeders to one, possibly two calves a season. 

 

Enter a few large buildings with rows and rows of artificial wombs.  Now, he has to only keep a few of his best, he can get 100s of  cloned offspring a season from his best breeders. 

 

Where did they get this idea?  From him human medicine.  We can sustain the lives of earlier and earlier premies.  I think 22.5 weeks gestation is the record now.  Think about that.  5 mos.  Now we grow embryos for loner and longer periods.  It's just a matter of making the ends meet. 

 

BUT - that idea from humans for cattle will be used for humans, no doubt.  Women used to just wait for a full-term baby to decide to be born.  Terribly inconvenient, doctors being deprived of sleep, people missing work to be present at births. Or give birth.

 

Now they plan.  Anytime in the 2-3 weeks - they schedule births, induce labor.  The earlier the better, smaller babies make easier deliveries.

 

Those artificial wombs are being o planned for human use. 

 

Bakerstreet Irregular said:

 

That being said, there are 73 "sleepers", male and female, and that presents a pretty good starting gene pool even if they where genetically engineered, and probably was supposed to be a "seeding" program.

 

73 wouldn't usually be enough, depending on the ratio of M-F and the number of recessive fatals in the gene pool, but - what with cloning and artificial wombs, give them a planet with a few resources and they could have a quite sizable population in a relatively short time. 

 

We need to breed them back in.  Which opens the possibility for Khan to  fall in love.   Probably going to need a Vulcan a woman so he doesn't accidentally break her.   Logic could save them, love could redeem them.

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Have they made progress with the cloning though? I know one farmer here in the US had cloned cows, the clones were weak and very sickly. The government wanted him to use them for beef critters. The farmer did a video expose saying the clones weren't fit to eat. That was pretty recent too. Within the last 3 or 4 years.

 

I think in the TOS there were more "sleepers" over 80. But I suppose even that is too small. Also in TOS Khan fell in love with one of the Enterprise crew and she went into exile with him. We all know how that turned out.

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Have they made progress with the cloning though? I know one farmer here in the US had cloned cows, the clones were weak and very sickly. The government wanted him to use them for beef critters. The farmer did a video expose saying the clones weren't fit to eat. That was pretty recent too. Within the last 3 or 4 years.

 

Well, most of the cloning research isn't going on in the US, and most of it is done by private companies, rather than in university or government facilities.   We aren't going to know where they are until they get there.  That they are doing it leaks through the community. 

 

As far as artificial wombs, try this video.

 

 

I think in the TOS there were more "sleepers" over 80. But I suppose even that is too small. Also in TOS Khan fell in love with one of the Enterprise crew and she went into exile with him. We all know how that turned out.

 

But this is a different Khan, his experience is different,  the woman will be different.  Besides, that wasn't love, just another part of his ego trip with the poster girl for low self-esteem. 

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Speaking of genetic modifications and Trekkers, I stopped by at the gaming forum I mentioned, and re-reading the STID thread found a post I just have to share with you; it's bloody brilliant. The author posts under the handle "Dan Lawrence".

 

 

 

Since this is clearly an invitation to nerd it up. I liked the Tribble bit because to me it implied that Bones was responsible for creating the modern troublesome Tribble by injecting one with the incredible regenerating blood of Khan. I would assume that normally a creature with such a high birthrate would naturally evolve a short natural lifespan to keep its population in check and not overwhelm its ecosystem. By injecting it with Khan's magic blood he has created a super tribble that is able to survive almost anything, live much longer and probably also exist for longer periods without eating (did anyone see Khan eat?), we can assume that the super tribble somehow escapes Bones' medical bay and breeds with another thereby creating the galactic wide menace of trials and tribble-ations.

 

And Carol, you still didn't tell us who you ended up rooting for :).

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Speaking of genetic modifications and Trekkers, I stopped by at the gaming forum I mentioned, and re-reading the STID thread found a post I just have to share with you; it's bloody brilliant. The author posts under the handle "Dan Lawrence".

 

 

 

Since this is clearly an invitation to nerd it up. I liked the Tribble bit because to me it implied that Bones was responsible for creating the modern troublesome Tribble by injecting one with the incredible regenerating blood of Khan. I would assume that normally a creature with such a high birthrate would naturally evolve a short natural lifespan to keep its population in check and not overwhelm its ecosystem. By injecting it with Khan's magic blood he has created a super tribble that is able to survive almost anything, live much longer and probably also exist for longer periods without eating (did anyone see Khan eat?), we can assume that the super tribble somehow escapes Bones' medical bay and breeds with another thereby creating the galactic wide menace of trials and tribble-ations.

 

And Carol, you still didn't tell us who you ended up rooting for :).

 

Could you post a link to the OP or the thread, please?  

 

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And Carol, you still didn't tell us who you ended up rooting for :).

Hey, I already told you I've only seen it once!   ;)

 

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Well, most of the cloning research isn't going on in the US....

Where ever they are doing it, I hope they are having better luck then how those cows turned out. It was really awful to see how sick they were.

 

I do get that this is a different Khan. It seems ST:ID  picks up where the TOS movie...was it the Wrath of Khan?...left off even changing the ending of the movie totally. Instead of Spock dying it is Kirk. Instead of destroying Khan with the detonated torpedoes, he survives. Instead of a revived Spock because of  weapon that destroys a planet then returns it to it's natural state...or something along those lines, it's been awhile....Kirk is saved by using Khan's super cell blood.

 

I just vaguely remember the episode where the Enterprise finds the USS Botany. I knew Khan had a son and the mother had once been a member of the Enterprises' crew.

 

Let's just hope that what ever Spock told Spock about how to defeat Khan ...which didn't work out so well....well...maybe for Kirk it did.....that it included enough of the back story so this time Khan and his "family" don't get left on a planet that gets turned into desert with a bunch of Ceti eels roaming around.

 

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Could you post a link to the OP or the thread, please? 

 

 

Here you go (second-to-last post on the first page), but be warned, that forum can be a rough place (my "I disagree with what you said" further upthread, for instance, is code-speak for the kind of phrase I wouldn't even think, let alone post, anywhere else).

 

 

 

And Carol, you still didn't tell us who you ended up rooting for :).

Hey, I already told you I've only seen it once!   ;)

 

 

Good point :lol:. Still, what were your first impressions?

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I did think that Cumberbatch playing a Khan Noonian Singh should maybe have been darker, but he does have those slanted cat's eyes, which do give him an suggestion of the oriental, and he is a genetic hybred so it didn't bother me overly much. And he was just so damned awesome in the role.

 

And from the pictures I have seen of "The Wrath of Khan" Ricardo Montalban was darker in the TOS episode then he was in the movie. But yes, they could probably have darkened Cumberbatch some.

 

There is already some flack about it on the web. Accusing the people who casted the film of whitewashing.

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And Carol, you still didn't tell us who you ended up rooting for :).

Hey, I already told you I've only seen it once!   ;)

 

 

Good point :lol:. Still, what were your first impressions?

 

 

Much better villain than in the 2009 movie -- though that one was so weakly written that improvement could not have been difficult, so I shall say instead, very good villain.  I still couldn't really root for him, however.  Even though he'd apparently been done wrong, that didn't excuse what he was doing (and/or intending to do) to other people.  He was a definite bad guy in my book, not merely misunderstood.

 

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Much better villain than in the 2009 movie -- though that one was so weakly written that improvement could not have been difficult, so I shall say instead, very good villain.  I still couldn't really root for him, however.  Even though he'd apparently been done wrong, that didn't excuse what he was doing (and/or intending to do) to other people.  He was a definite bad guy in my book, not merely misunderstood.

 

Yep, calling him better than Nero is probably damning him with faint praise ;).

 

And while I concur that he is a villain, he's definitely a complex one, and whether and how much of an excuse he has for what he does is a knotty question - that's why I said upthread that I would have preferred for him to end up in front of a panel of judges instead of on the rocks, again. But that kind of contemplation of thorny moral questions, while very much in the spirit of Star Trek imho, doesn't translate well to the big action screen so we're never going to see it, I guess :(.

 

What I loved about this Khan is that, while he never strikes unless provoked somehow (hubby and me wondered how the scene on the bridge of the Vengeance would have played out if Kirk had not told Scotty to stun Khan as soon as they reached it), when he responds it's with such gleeful excess that you get the impression that, while he can and does control his violent nature, he just loves it when the gloves finally come off.

 

And that's why I think that Julia Mae's and Fox's idea of having the remaining Vulcans help with the Augments' redemption (and this being Star Trek, they should get a chance at it) is so brilliant. The Vulcans know all about having an overabundance of strength and aggression and the brains to use them to devastating effect, and how to control them instead.

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And we really don't know when he went back into the cryo-tube. He was awake and on Earth and he had just plowed a giant star ship into Star Fleet headquarters besides all the other acts he had committed. The scene with him refrozen is a year after these events so we don't really know what happened between when Spock and Uhura captured him and this re-dedication. There very well could have been a trial and he is not sentenced to death but very evidently something else. So maybe the new laws and courts of the future, like the British courts of today, recognize and take into account extenuating circumstances.

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I did think that Cumberbatch playing a Khan Noonian Singh should maybe have been darker, but he does have those slanted cat's eyes, which do give him an suggestion of the oriental, and he is a genetic hybred so it didn't bother me overly much. And he was just so damned awesome in the role.

 

And from the pictures I have seen of "The Wrath of Khan" Ricardo Montalban was darker in the TOS episode then he was in the movie. But yes, they could probably have darkened Cumberbatch some.

 

There is already some flack about it on the web. Accusing the people who casted the film of whitewashing.

Any time a repeat character is recast across color or gender lines, there will be flak.  If the change is in a politically-correct direction, some will applaud it and others will call it a gimmick.  And if not -- well you're seeing what happens.

 

Personally, I think (hope?) that casting directors are becoming much more willing to cast the best applicant, rather than color-matching.  I'm thinking of Lucy Liu as Joan Watson, for example (though I do suspect that casting a woman may have been a gimmick), as well as Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan.

 

According to Wikipedia, Ricardo Montalban was born in Mexico to parents who had immigrated from Spain.  So he may actually have had some Moorish ancestry, appropriate for playing the nominally Middle-Eastern character Khan.  His Khan had been specially bred, however, so his ancestry may well have been mixed.

 

Benedict Cumberbatch's Khan is not a mere hybrid, he's genetically engineered, so who knows what nationality (or even entirely what species) his ancestry is?  If you can look past his pale skin and eyes (which could have been engineered for northern climates), it's easy to believe that his unusual appearance results from quite a hodgepodge of intercontinental genes.

 

I'm also wondering whether that bit of casting may have been partly inspired by a desire to keep the identity of the villain a secret (not that it worked all that well).

 

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On the other board there were several theories about pale!Khan, some in-universe and some not:

 

.) He's been surgically altered, because otherwise he'd have been way too notorious to move unnoticed, having been a famous historical villain and whatnot

 

.) The augmenting process scrambled some genes and made him an albino, and the hair's just dyed

 

.) They were reluctant to cast anyone looking even remotely Middle-Eastern after 9/11, given the film's theme and Khan's doings

 

.) Does it matter? Benedict Cumberbath is brilliant in this, he could be purple-skinned for all I care

 

Personally, I couldn't quite understand why that was such a topic at all. The only (minor) beef I had with casting was that the admiralcy conference was such a human's club and sausage-fest. I understand that the Enterprise itself is male-dominated for precedence reasons, but since the 23rd century is supposed to be fully egalitarian, they should have put some alien expats and more women in Starfleet High Command, imho.

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Does it matter? Benedict Cumberbath is brilliant in this, he could be purple-skinned for all I care

 

That's pretty much my take on it too. There are always going to be malcontents who have to blow their horn about how someone's rights are being trampled on. This is fiction and science fiction to boot. The Universe it big enough for everyone.

 

Maybe high command is still male dominated but I noticed a lot of women on the Enterprise and on the bridge to boot. As well as a lot of aliens. So there at lease the diversity is alive and well.

 

And the great thing about being this far removed from TOS is Hollywood has matured enough so that there can be actual inter-racial kissing. Does anyone remember the flak that the show got when Captain Kirk was supposed to have kissed Uhura? Angry viewers wrote, called for boycott and even sent death threats. How dare a white man even think to kiss a woman of color! I thought it was high time and then some. But then it came out that they really didn't but tried very hard to give the impression that they had. I thought that was kind of a wimp out. But that's just me.

 

And as far as genetics go, two years ago I took part in a program that uses DNA tests to track a person's genetic ancestry. 10, 000 years ago my ancestors split into two groups. One headed East towards India then hung a sharp right, crossed a gulf to populate the Arabian Peninsular. The other branch headed north and west to blend with the Celtic tribes. Living in the northern climes of the Scandinavian, Scotland, and Maine, guess what color my skin is?

 

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Yeah, most of us Americans are pretty much mutts!  (Same must apply to the British, considering that they've been subject to one invasion after another, but no one ever seems to talk about that.)  I'd love to have my DNA tested for ancestry, if I could find a reliable lab that doesn't charge an arm and a leg.

 

There are a couple of conflicting stories about the Kirk/Uhura kiss -- one being what you referenced, and the other (from Shatner) being that the suits insisted on having two takes of the scene, one with and one without.  Shatner says that was the last scene to be filmed for that episode, and after they did the actual-kiss version, he purposely flubbed on take after take of the fake-kiss version until they barely had time to finish.  They did one last take with no flubs, and they wrapped.  It wasn't till they ran the dailies that they discovered that Shatner had crossed his eyes!  So the version aired did have the real kiss.  (There are also conflicting stories about the audience reaction, with the other being that the dreaded backlash did not materialize.)

 

As for Starfleet's male-to-female ratio, my in-universe take is that (then as now) most women have a well-rounded life outside of work, and therefore do not see the point of putting in the long hours required for a top-level promotion.  The result is that the top echelons of most organizations are filled with workaholic men.  I have no idea whether it's a sex-linked genetic difference or merely cultural, but it does seem to be statistically significant.

 

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On the other board there were several theories about pale!Khan, some in-universe and some not:

 

.) He's been surgically altered, because otherwise he'd have been way too notorious to move unnoticed, having been a famous historical villain and whatnot

What "famous historical villain"? That was in another timeline.

 

 

.) The augmenting process scrambled some genes and made him an albino, and the hair's just dyed

Of course the genetic engineering scrambled some genes -- that's the whole point. And he wouldn't need to be a dyed albino, merely someone engineered for optimal health in a northern climate. This is my favorite in-universe theory.

 

 

.) They were reluctant to cast anyone looking even remotely Middle-Eastern after 9/11, given the film's theme and Khan's doings

Ah, yes, the old damned-if-you-do / damned-if-you-don't paradox. I suspect there was more than a little of this idea in the real-life thinking. (They may have considered changing his name as well, but the story was close enough to the original that it would have seemed odd.)

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