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Oddly enough, I think that's why I enjoyed "Endgame" so much … it was less about the flash than I expected, and more about characterization. In a comic book movie! I mean, really, who would expect that? I didn't. Not that the previous films didn't have characterization, but the emphasis on it in Endgame was more than I was prepared for. Especially with a title like that.

At any rate, I'm very much enjoying these comments about GOT. I barely understand most of them, but I get a kick out of how impassioned you all are about it. Glad I didn't get into it, sounds like a major let down is on the way …. :P 

 

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19 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Oddly enough, I think that's why I enjoyed "Endgame" so much … it was less about the flash than I expected, and more about characterization. In a comic book movie! I mean, really, who would expect that? I didn't. Not that the previous films didn't have characterization, but the emphasis on it in Endgame was more than I was prepared for. Especially with a title like that.

At any rate, I'm very much enjoying these comments about GOT. I barely understand most of them, but I get a kick out of how impassioned you all are about it. Glad I didn't get into it, sounds like a major let down is on the way …. :P 

 

Yeah, I am actually really grateful that the violence turned me away early because I am sure that the series has great potential to draw people like me in and never let go. And then break my heart.

With only two more episodes to go and so many loose threads left, I cannot imagine how the end of the TV show is going to be anything but a let down. I only have one prediction at this point: The books will be different. Just because that if I were a writer and people were finishing the TV series based on my novels before I had the chance to publish the last volumes, I would never ever give away the real ending.

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Well he did give away some details, but those have been hinted at since book 1, like Jon's parentage - I think I read that he asked the showrunners about it to see if they were attentive readers. And I think he also stated that they didn't follow his advice at times, like killing of one of the Dothraki (Jhaquo?) that he had told them he'd still be using in a major role in one of the books later.

That being said, if (!) any more books are ever published, I can't see GRRM being as disrespectful to the female characters as the show. He might be a tone-deaf male at times and it shows in his writing, but he's always tried his best.

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On 5/12/2019 at 1:41 AM, J.P. said:

Well, this might be the fate of all shows that started before they were written to the end.

Any other example? I don't know about the fallout with George, I think if he is still in the pictures, a lot of funny plots could be avoided.

On 5/12/2019 at 2:13 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

And I must very sadly admit that he's probably right -- though there is still the occasional well-made (by my standards) movie, such as Green Book.

Green Book is great, yes.

On 5/13/2019 at 4:27 AM, T.o.b.y said:

With only two more episodes to go and so many loose threads left, I cannot imagine how the end of the TV show is going to be anything but a let down. I only have one prediction at this point: The books will be different. Just because that if I were a writer and people were finishing the TV series based on my novels before I had the chance to publish the last volumes, I would never ever give away the real ending.

I suppose they would come into similar conclusion, as Caya said, the showrunners know the bullet points of the whole story. But the books would get there in much more sophisticated and well-deserved ways. Sadly, I'm starting to think the A.I would take over the world before I finally see it in the bookstore.

 

Anyway, ep 5, penultimate episode.

I stupidly spent hours to type in this, but can't help it. 😣

This is the longest post I have ever done. Ever! Sorry.

At first, I thought  I have nothing to say  for this episode, as I had kind of given up, because again the show creators don't give a piss about the importance of process and characters. That they decide to burn years of hard work, their own, by delivering mediocre at best to terrible at most, for the sake of finishing it, or perhaps fan service to "new" fans. I can't understand them, because they themselves were hardcore fans, who fell in love with the series with the same reason as me, and multiple people who are yelling at YouTube now, who studied the dog-eared book trying to imagine a way to bring all these written words to the screen and actually given a chance to do so.

So, as for many, and my personal experience, one of the surest way to destroy your faith in something is to work on it, knowing the industry that would then reveal their ugly sides you have never seen and realize it's a nope for you. So for them, do they have work fatigue? Which I could understand that for a decade that's all they do, but there are different challenges that I'm sure GoT creation is never boring and stagnant and they have obligation to put efforts, decent efforts. Not minimum effort that seriously make me doubt that they are qualified.

So I watched ep 5 expecting they would screw up, they did. Why they did I had sort of touching them in previous rant. I said I expected, sadly it's true. Too bad because I think there are ways to make it less horrible even if they are using the same structures which I would try to do? I hope I won't take too long to explain and my writing is not too ridden with too many errors. (Spoiler: it takes too long and there must be plethora of grammatical errors)

#1. Execution of Varys.

 Varys was a very enigmatic character that had existed in the shadow around the many Kings, as he said, more than anyone. He was 'Master of Whisperer' who knew anything and everything that happened in the realm, perhaps the only person who knew about the labyrinth of secret tunnels and passages, the last secret,  since the King who built it executed every builders. He worked subtly and effectively, never appeared as a threat but always as reliable asset. He had plans after plans after plans. He was involved even in the making of Daenerys Targayen, back when she and her brother  were in exile, key person to Tyrion's escape and many more in the book. Point is, he is sneaky, smart and cunning.

So what they did in the show? He ran to Jon right as he landed on the beach, in full view and ears of the guards, and probably everyone on the higher ground. And he didn't whisper, he talked normally about treason; undermining the queen and asking Jon to replace her. But his undoing was ultimately Tyrion, the one he saved, the smart one, the logical thinking, SUPPOSEDLY, ratted him out to Dany. If anyone read my frustration about Littlefinger's demise back then, I feel the same with Varys. They butchered it, badly. They deserved better writing for their endings. This is just stupid.

Well look, for Tyrion ratting him out, I actually see a bit of point there, I supposed they made Tyrion confessed to Dany to prevent her finding out herself and included Tyrion in dragon's menu, also Varys had already started a plan to assassinate Dany, at least that's what I caught. Varys had a report from one of his spy, a little girl, she said that the queen refused to eat and they were watching her in the kitchen, she was a kitchen staff. But still, it'd be more logical that Tyrion would do calculated moves instead of knowing full well that his snitching would make Varys roasted (pun definitely intended).

So, in order to make the characters ACTUALLY acting like their characters, with the target of having the same outcome, how if this happened instead.

Dany was grieving and looking mad. She had lost her best friend, who (whom?) she rescued, came from the small folk, who she normally found happiness in small talks and as companion. So this little girl came in with a tray of food and with her childish charm, urging the queen to eat so that she felt better. Dany, as what her character normally did, would hesitate but then talked to the child, trying to find any connection left that reminded her of the lost friend, when Tyrion came in and urged the queen not to eat the food. He previously saw the little girl left Vary's chamber before he attempted to talk with Varys again about the better course of actions (He had faith to try to talk to Cersei numerous times, Varys was way more reasonable than Cersei and this was a deadly important matter, anyway, he should have some reason that he could trust Varys logically when he blurted the secret to him). But it didn't work again, Varys didn't seem to budge and Tyrion got a hunch (he was supposed to be smart after all) that the assassination  plan was already in motion. So Tyrion went to check on Dany, saw that little girl with her and put two and two together. There, he had to warn Dany and confessed, to protect her like intended (with more valid reason to sell Varys out). While similarly Varys got the hunch that Tyrion caught on and hastily finished sending letter (pretty sure he managed to send some letter because in ep 6 this rumour would be out otherwise it's another stupid decision) and waited for his justice but he did what he had to do.

It'd reach the same destination, but at least there are some remaining character quality of Tyrion, Varys and Dany that we know. Small details, but very very important, to me.

 

2. Destruction of Iron fleet and Lannister Army.

Do I need to mention Golden Company here? Holy sh*t, their storyline was worse than Dorne, almost, it's very laughable for the most reputable sellswords company that had been hyped since previous season. So Cersei looted Highgarden, confiscated their wealth so she was able to pay the throne's debt to Mycroft, and rented the help of 20000 strong very very reputable sellswords. If I remember correctly, this company was always successful. But they were toasted 5 seconds into the bottle, leader forgot his helmet and ran screaming like little girl. But nevermind them.

So what happened is, last episode with a couple of boats, Euron, managed to kill a dragon (a dumb dragon apparently) by shooting bullseye multiple times. Now this episode he had full fleet (could it really be thousand boats that he claimed? whatever, it's a lot) and the land defense were also armed with scorpions on almost every perimeter. So of course, attacking with dragon, sole dragon, head on to this is extremely stupid and dangerous right? Nope! The dragon cruised effortlessly, avoided every single shoots and managed to burn them all. No hit, no bruise, everything missed. So one episode the show told us the dragons were vulnerable from this attack and this episode no it didn't matter. Some would argue Rhaegor (?) was a dumb dragon or because he didn't have a rider to maneuver him, and it was a surprise attack (don't let me go into that surprise sh*t from that vantage point and lack of scout at war time through enemy territory). Fair enough. But successfully cruising around in that scale of armed scorpions??

What if they could make it more believable by simply, simply putting armor on the dragon for example, or night attack. Dragon armor if I remember correctly, was something known from history, and it's not unusual to have armor for war animals. Anyway, Gendry the blacksmith turned to Lord of StormEnd got nothing better to do now that Arya refused to play with him. And night attack, imagine how much more advantage Dany would have from night attack. I know people complained that the night battle in Winterfell was too dark. It's poor lighting, not poor strategy. And if the showrunners knew audience's complain before hand, they should scrap everything. Oh she attacked during day time so that the land war would be easier for them? Make sense, but in strategic point of view it makes even more sense to give the enemy 'fake deadline' when they could see her troop approaching on land, thought they still had time, but actually went and roasted the enemy's fleet a night before. 

 

3. The Mad Queen

If I didn't make myself clear, I don't mind the ending of Daenerys turning into the mad queen. I think it would be fascinating that we saw the redemption of other characters from bad to good (wait -- scratch that. See 4- Jamie) while she turned out to be big villain at the end. I just think that it's not earned at all in the show. It's forced and rushed. Sure, they don't have luxury of book style storytelling but it doesn't mean that it's impossible to have better path.

What happen in the show, the overtaking of King's Landing was actually done in around 7 minutes, because of magical crap mentioned in point 2. So Iron Fleet gone, all the scorpions destroyed, the defence walls were breached, Golden Company toasted in 5 seconds, Jon and Daenerys's army were inside. The remaining Lannister's army threw their swords on the ground and surrendered. Dany perched on the top of something high and she could see all that, including millions of civilians. She could see Red Keep tower from far, where Cersei, her enemy, was located. Then the freaking bell rang (who did that? Jamie?) to announce that the city had surrendered. Previously Tyrion had mentioned again and again to stop attack when the bell was rung, which means they had won and enemy had surrendered. This reminds me to PTSD :P at work when I had to repeat simple things over and over again,"Don't paint this grey. Don't paint this grey. Anything but grey. No grey." Spoiler alert: Of course it's grey.

So yah, Dany heard the bell, knowing full well they had won, but decided to F that, then flew with the dragon and torched everything; thousands and thousands of civilians, buildings, everything and anything. She didn't head to the Red Keep yet, but busy doing the queuing motion like we do on the bank and airport immigration to make sure there's no one left behind. It's winter ya know, dragon's breath would be cosy.

Again, eventhough there were signs and foreshadowing, this is not earned at all. Some even says it's character assassination. As I mentioned previously, yes, she had shown she could be ruthless and unforgiving; she had burned the slave master, khals, Sam's family but nobody disagree that the slavemaster and khals subjected weaker and innocents to meaningless suffering lives, and she wanted to be their protector and breaker of chains. Then everytime she punished people who defied her, she did it for strategic reason with many doubts in her head, to make sure that she remained strong and fair (arguably of course), no madness, but desired to be good. And again, she was also shown as kind-hearted who always cared for the weak and poors, who always tried to be a good ruler, it's her thing, she chained her dragons when she learned they had harmed a kid. She sacrificed her happiness and married Meereenese local to restore peace in town. She chose to stay and rule in Meereen to help rebuild the slave city, and don't forget she chose to fight for the north (one probably says that's just because of a boy) because she didn't want to be queen of the ashes. So is it in character when she went berserk at this point?

How if, there were some more catalysts that lead to the same conclusion but could maintain the consistency  of Dany and Cersei's characters? At least try!

So, after losing Missandei, Dany was grieving and tried to connect with the little girl (point 1) but found the ugly truth that her advisor was trying to assassinate and plotting against her. Including Tyrion and Jon who couldn't keep their mouths shut. Now at King's Landing.. Cersei had been known as ruthless and strategic enough (with Qyburn's help) that I think it'd be too naive of her to rely on scorpions alone. She fortify the city with civilians, thinking at it would deter her enemy, which she miscalculated. How if, above those, Cersei also used her favorite weapon; the wildfire? During Drogon's attack, we saw multiple of green blasts everywhere in the city. This is a shout-out to Dany's mad father, previous King Aerys. King Aerys was the mad king, who went nuts and planted the wildfire every where in King's Landing, which he wanted to set on fire when the city was being taken over, he wanted to burn them all, including all the civilians. That was when Jamie decided to kill the King he swore to protect and actually saved a million people, but earned him nothing but Oathbreaker reputation.

How if Cersei actually discovered and planted the wildfire strategically (it happened before in season 6) as second tier internal defense that it would be activated had the enemy reached certain point inside the wall. First, she didn't expect Dany would burn the city. Second, it's not beyond her to let the city burn (even with civilian's casualties) in effort to take down Dany's infantry. This could actually be one of the better reasons to provoke Dany further.

Another thing, how if Cersei also planted army in civilian's clothing? So in the event of Dany's army took the city and the 'official' Lannister Army surrendered, when they were caught off guard, the 'civilians' around them would do spree killings, taking down a lot of Dany's force and she would have few choice left and decided to burn the city, eventhough there were real civilians, just in case. It could also acted as provocation that her enemy was playing dirty again and pushed her over the edge and decided to burn them all.

 

4. Jamie

Goddammit, so it's true, I had given too much credit, really? The show decides to undo all the character's redemption arc for  six seasons. Seriously! Show Jamie had already taken way too long time to finally abandon Cersei, stayed with her even when she burned the Sept to the ground and finally learned that she was bad news when she broke a promise to join the war with the white walker. And what sent him back, after he decided to stay in the North so that he could be with Brianne, knowing full well that the next war of Dany's force was with Cersei? What sent him back was hearing that Cersei had killed a dragon and killed Missandei? So then he decided that maybe she should be saved, they should be together. What??? It doesn't make sense! It doesn't make sense even in show's Jamie arc. WTF.

So he really came back to King's Landing to be with her, to save her, at the same time stupidly captivated. You mean, he couldn't look unsuspicious since he was actually considered as an ally to Dany after the North's war? And the explanation was, his golden hand gave him away because he couldn't bear to take it off since Cersei liked it. WHAT? Show, take off that golden hand and smack yourself of the face. Can you hear yourself? Jamie hated that golden hand, it represented what he wasn't and thing that was never replaceable. )*^#*(^!^(#^^*%^$%^^$@

FINE! Provided we buy that storyline, that after all this time, he couldn't help it but screwing a maiden he had just showed respect by knighting her the night before in a one night stand (I know the sentence is messy but I'm having finger diarrhoea  here) he decided to go back to his one true toxic love as intention to save her.

How if we make it this way, Jamie was inside the city, flailing his golden hand  to attract attention of the guard so he could get to the tower, where he could see that there were civilians panicking everywhere. So he reached the tower (fighting with Euron or not, dumb plot) half dying from the effort, happily wanted to finally fetch Cersei (dumb plot) and heard Cersei, realizing that she was losing the war, commanding pyromancer or Qyburn to burn the city before Dany took it, at the same time taking out her invading army. And Jamie had to face with dejavu, the same decision he took with King Aerys. So he indeed dumb enough to come and save her but ended up killing her just like he killed Aerys, to again, save a million people below. Their ending could be the same, Cersei saw through his intention, after all, she knew his history, but accepted the fate, prefer to die than to fall. Jamie of course couldn't bear to live from that, so they would both gone in similar scene but it would be better earned and heartbreaking. His arc would be completed, as per Cersei, to stay in character that she would do anything  to protect her child and thrones. And it could be done in the way that Jamie was too late, the order had been carried out, the city burned, and Dany turned mad.

 

They could do it that way, no? I think it could save this episode for a bit.

Sniff.. bloody show.

 

Entering 3000 words essay soon, we always think when someone was ranting over a show:"why do you still watch it if you are so unhappy about it?"

I'm not always a critic, there were times I was their apologist to their bad decision as I was trying to make good sense of it. I was still happy with some of their decisions, I even liked episode 1 and 2 quite a lot, so it'd be dumb if I skipped the last few episodes, and I also hate spoiler to the core that the best way for me to avoid any is to get on the show first. That was the reason I gulped all the books when season One was out, and barricaded myself from watching and reading anything about it until I finished the book. And of course, in my very limited literature experience, I had never read anything like it. Something that is so rich, well written, very carefully and well done character's arc, thousands of characters, a fictional world that is so well developed it's richer than our actual history if we want to lay everything down. I'm probably the least invested compared to many fans although dedicating hours of rambling about it in non GoT forum is not a good use of time. Many book readers (I don't even count myself in this category) had loved the book since it came out twenty over years ago and patiently (or not) waiting for the show conclusions. So what I'm saying, it deserves so much more effort than this. They are ruining characters and stories that many people had invested for so long.

My other reason of still watching is because I want to pass the judgement on my own. That is why I don't read reviews or prediction until I had formed my own to see if I would change my mind instead of being influenced before hand.

And lastly, there are rumors of more GoT prequels to be made. They should not repeat the mistake if  they know how screwed up it is, maybe.  I hope somebody else would helm it.

SIde note, I heard rumor that the showrunners, in all of their glory of being criticised about how they portrayed violence and rape in the show, were planning to make a series about a world where 'the confederate wins'. So yah, beside all those reputation, now we know they are bad writers too. The result would be fantastic.

 

That's about it. Not sure if anyone bothers to read it. Thanks if you do.

Wait, dammit. More!

Some stray observations:

- Stupid plot armor Arya, apparently everyone dies from dragon fire but her, not even serious wound. And why do we need to see from her PoV, wouldn't it be stronger to see it from Jon's? How come he became so useless? I don't need to see anymore Arya. Again and again. They could also make it more 'story-worthy' that instead of listening to the Hound only at the last minute (not believable) they could make her, for example, received a burning wound (dragon everywhere FFS) that represents what Hound had warned her about; that all the thirst of vengeance would turn her into him. THEN she would see the devastation around her and decided to still believe in good and THEN trying to help the people. But of course not, they would make her kill Dany or whatever crap in their mind.

- Dothraki and Unsullied can be magically respawn.

- If Jon and Dany died, Gendry, the newly made StormEnd's Lord, now legitimised descendant of the former King, would be the next in line. Did Dany think about this? I vote Hot Pie on the thrones.

- Qyburn, so he actually genuinely cared about Cersei after all. It's a very underdeveloped character, considered that he was hand of the queen and probably the best strategist. How did he end up in Harrenhall, what was his actual goal? I actually like Qyburn.

- Clegeane's bowl. It distracted me because they kept cutting back and forth to Arya, with no obvious payback. So it's quite meh for me but it's a decent scene. RIP Sandor. The only thing that conquered his fear of fire was his hatred for his brother. That is, in character.

- Bahahahhaha, I read that more than 3000 parents in US are now screwed because they named their daughter Daenerys or Khaleesi, after apparently a murderous psychomaniac. How is that working out for ya? Hope they learn a thing or two about pop culture obsession. Say someone who named their dog  inspired by a certain detective.

 

Okay, after all that, there are two good points:

 1. Tyrion and Jamie scene was the best thing this episode. It's not very clear about Tyrion's statement that he wouldn't survive childhood without Jamie, unlike  the book, but it's good enough.

2. The visual, music and actings are stunning this episode. Too bad they are overshadowed by the rest.

 

Sigh. There you have it.

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Cleagane vs. Cleagane scene would be MUCH better if they didn't planted that stupid Darth Vader face in the middle of it. They should have left him hidden and us wondering about Mountain's looks - as someone said, the best monster is one you never see.

In contrary to you the disappointment over Jaime felt very GoT-ish to me. And don't you remember Varys' words about people steered by their gonads and what comes from it? :P

I agree with the rest.

Every important character point seemed misplaced, missed, poorly paced.

 

Another stupidly ending series? LOST. Twin Peaks. Sherlock. The original Witcher books. Dune books. Also have heard of Alf, How I Met Your Mother… partially Westworld. I'm waiting for Man In The High Castle, Preacher and American Gods to end… badly :P

Actually watching whole series in one piece might be helpful for not building up expectations.

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I hardly dare voice my opinion on this show publicly here because I know so little about it, really, but as far as I can see, I agree that for many recent developments, it's not the What that bothers me, it's the How. I feel like (almost) the same outcomes could have been achieved in much more believable and satisfying ways.

(And J.P.: Personally, I think Sherlock fared way better than GoT as a series).

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On 5/12/2019 at 1:41 AM, J.P. said:

Well, this might be the fate of all shows that started before they were written to the end.

 

11 hours ago, J.P. said:

Another stupidly ending series? LOST. Twin Peaks. Sherlock. The original Witcher books. Dune books. Also have heard of Alf, How I Met Your Mother… partially Westworld. I'm waiting for Man In The High Castle, Preacher and American Gods to end… badly :P

But are they based on books that haven't been finished?

11 hours ago, J.P. said:

Cleagane vs. Cleagane scene would be MUCH better if they didn't planted that stupid Darth Vader face in the middle of it. They should have left him hidden and us wondering about Mountain's looks - as someone said, the best monster is one you never see.

Oh lucky me I didn't know how Darth Vader looks like inside the helmet. To cheer you up, I believe the showrunner's next project is Star Wars. Good luck. XD

For me, best monster is the one you see in the end, for example in The Quiet Place. I'd be disappointed if it's never shown. Can't think of example but I don't watch horror. (Sometimes I have to rant about how they should know differences between horror, thriller, mystery and crime 😦)

11 hours ago, J.P. said:

In contrary to you the disappointment over Jaime felt very GoT-ish to me. And don't you remember Varys' words about people steered by their gonads and what comes from it? :P

Call me childish but gonad! :lol5: But Jamie is not about euh..gonad thingy, he is actually always a romantic. Toxic love. But they had stirred him away and away and he is the character that fascinates me a lot, the journey and everything. Until that, hard U turn because everything apparently means nothing.

10 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

I hardly dare voice my opinion on this show publicly here because I know so little about it, really, but as far as I can see, I agree that for many recent developments, it's not the What that bothers me, it's the How. I feel like (almost) the same outcomes could have been achieved in much more believable and satisfying ways.

Precisely. That is the frustrating part. I'm more a Journey person than the End, but both are important. You can give me fantastic or damper or miserable ending but it has to make sense.

Actually I feel that this season there are many watchers who feel the same with me, is it because they are louder? Or piss off too much that many decide to speak up? Or maybe because I didn't really check the reception of previous season? Season 7, it was almost a torture when my casual colleague would find me every Monday with sparkly eyes to discuss how great was the episode but always thought I'm just a rambling nuts when I said it's not that great. I wasn't even rambling! I didn't say anything much except not enthusiastically agreeing! Ah well. 

One more to go.

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15 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Until that, hard U turn because everything apparently means nothing.

As I said - gonads. And their hormones. Chemical defect etc. :D

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15 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

But are they based on books that haven't been finished?

There were no books with an end, as the shows are written on the go. Dune and Witcher started well, but the following books felt more and more like the characters were just strolling around in the search for meaning and the writers are paid per word. Dune at the end actually felt like written by a ghost writer.

In GoT, as long as there were books all seemed okay…

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On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:14 PM, J.P. said:

Dune at the end actually felt like written by a ghost writer.

Thank you! I'm glad to find out I'm not the only person who felt that way. The first book was so great, and all the ones after just seemed determined to tear apart everything the first one created … arggh.

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Did you by any chance see the movie?

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Which one? The Lynch's one was more Lynch than Dune, but I like some of the cast choices. And music.

The series - I don't remember almost anything of it. Which actually tells it all. (Oh, yes I remember how I was wondering why they chose roundish Uwe Ochsenknecht to play a Freman)

PS: I always wondered if Petyr Baelish was named after Piter de Vries.

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Yeah, the Lynch version had the virtue of at least being interesting to look at. I remember about as much about the TV version as you do, JP.

I suspect they tried too hard to be "important".... and forgot to be "entertaining." Or maybe their budget was just too small (and maybe Lynch's was too big? :smile:

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14 hours ago, J.P. said:

Which one?

I meant the original movie -- the one with the terrific sandworms, and not much else that appealed to me.

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