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Well, this conversation certainly veered into unexpected territory! :D 

I'm of two minds about this subject (as I am about most things :smile: ) … having endured a few unwanted attentions myself, especially when younger, I'm not unsympathetic to women who finally feel free to say "I didn't like it, it's not right, I shouldn't have had to put up with it, I'm calling out your behavior." Yet at the same time I recognize that, in most cases, the guy meant no harm; he was just being a guy. As soon as they divined I wasn't interested, they quit.

I do think it's good that women now feel empowered to say "no, it's not okay to touch me like that without my permission, whether you meant anything by it or not." It nothing else remains of the MeToo movement, I hope that, at least, sticks. I didn't know I was allowed to say that back when, and I think some things would have turned out better for me if I had known. On the other hand, I can't attribute any malice to any of the men who were, er, inappropriate … I certainly don't think their lives should be ruined because of it. A good healthy dose of embarrassment will do. Let them see how it feels, for a change. :D

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It's probably because I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere and have stuck to rural areas all my life, but to me, the whole me too movement seems a bit theoretical. 

Neither can I recall much unwanted attention (or wanted attention either, for that matter), nor do any of the men I have real life contact with seem very worried about getting into trouble. 

So I am not sure what to believe - is the big bad world out there full of predators or full of overreacting vindictive attention seekers? Or both? In any case, it seems like a good idea to continue to stay away from it. 

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Men should be taught to have more respect for girls and women; and they should be taught this from when they are little boys! They should be taught this, by their parents, and by their teachers at school. 

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On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 2:55 PM, T.o.b.y said:

It's probably because I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere and have stuck to rural areas all my life, but to me, the whole me too movement seems a bit theoretical. 

Neither can I recall much unwanted attention (or wanted attention either, for that matter), nor do any of the men I have real life contact with seem very worried about getting into trouble. 

So I am not sure what to believe - is the big bad world out there full of predators or full of overreacting vindictive attention seekers? Or both? In any case, it seems like a good idea to continue to stay away from it. 

I remember my brother (rather plaintively, I thought) asking me a similar question once. Something along the lines of "do all women think all men are predators?" I told him yes, but my brothers were the exception. :D  I meant it as a joke, but I've often thought about his question, as he clearly felt … hurt? Uncomfortable about it, at any rate. I felt bad for him. On the other hand, if a lady's not interested, she should have a right to say no without fearing any ill consequences, and that includes feeling responsible for hurting the guy's feelings. (And all of this applies in reverse, by the way...) 

At any rate, I choose to believe that most things negative seem to be more prevalent than they actually are, simply because they're reported on more. Good news is ordinary and every day, bad news is the exception that needs to be reported. May not be true, but I'm happier thinking that way. :smile: 

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 5:05 PM, Douglas said:

Men should be taught to have more respect for girls and women; and they should be taught this from when they are little boys! They should be taught this, by their parents, and by their teachers at school. 

And girls should be taught to stand up for themselves. I wasn't; I grew up in an era when most of the social cues were to be pliant and submissive. Or that's how I interpreted them, at least. There's women my age who don't take s**t from anybody. Different personalities.

*sigh* Why can't being human be simple? :D 

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On 4/6/2019 at 8:20 AM, Arcadia said:

I do think it's good that women now feel empowered to say "no, it's not okay to touch me like that without my permission, whether you meant anything by it or not." It nothing else remains of the MeToo movement, I hope that, at least, sticks. I didn't know I was allowed to say that back when, and I think some things would have turned out better for me if I had known. On the other hand, I can't attribute any malice to any of the men who were, er, inappropriate … I certainly don't think their lives should be ruined because of it. A good healthy dose of embarrassment will do. Let them see how it feels, for a change. :D

I agree that empowering girls and young women to be able to stand up for themselves against unwanted attentions is a good thing.  I hope moving forward from now that will be a positive development.   Because what I feel the majority of the accusations against high-profile men have accomplished so far is to give the accusers a few minutes of instant gratification social media attention over allegations of incidents that occurred years ago.  In some cases, decades ago.  That doesn't make it OK that they happened, but it makes it very hazy to downright disprovable in recollection, years after the fact if the alleged behavior 1. actually occurred 2. if it did, if it was actually unwanted/non-consensual at the time, or considered any sort of real problem  3. If the accuser stands to gain (or thinks she does) by making these claims now.  

A great many of these accusers cast doubt upon their own veracity when it turns out that they admitted to tolerating unwanted sexual or off-color behavior expressly in order to be cast in a big picture or retain job in said big picture or otherwise burnish their careers or bank accounts.  It's the casting couch, and that predates the movies by a few hundred years, or however long we've had theatre.  Again, it's not right if what they said occurred did occur .  . . .however, short of being forcibly restrained and/or sexually assaulted, nearly all the women whose stories I read *did* have a choice to walk away, to speak up, etc.   What they feared most was not physical harm, but losing a juicy part in a film that would make them a star . . or else an opportunity to be the poster girl du jour for a societal movement with distinct political overtones that was sure to garner them a lot of attention in the press.  (Cf. the Brett Kavanaugh hearings.)  In today's Instagram culture, one's provocative 'information' is the currency they need to stay relevant for however long that lasts.  The whole social media overtone to this thing, down to the Twitter-friendly #MeToo hashtag and frankly juvenile-sounding name, like a bunch of girls swapping stories in a junior-high bathroom, Me, too!  Me, too!  just smacks of this digital generation's incessant craving for social media standing.  It's like a drug.  It demeans true victims of horrific brutal assaults when their stories are crowded out in the Twitterscape by #MeTooers chiming in about the time their boss told them they looked pretty in that dress or a co-worker stood a bit too close at the office Christmas party and smiled at her boobs.   In Twitter culture, there is little sense of proportion or the gravity of one situation outweighing something innocuous.  People today feel entitled to posting their grievances in a public forum every time someone does something They Don't Like.  Causing someone to Not Like Something has become a federal crime, and a cyber-lynching without due process the go-to sentence.  We don't need courts when we've got Twitter followers.

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... I choose to believe that most things negative seem to be more prevalent than they actually are, simply because they're reported on more. Good news is ordinary and every day, bad news is the exception that needs to be reported. May not be true, but I'm happier thinking that way.

Oh, it's true all right, and has been true all along.  Good news really does tend to be dull, simply because most things really do turn out OK in a fairly predictable sort of way.  But it's my impression that the bias toward emphasizing bad news has grown recently, to the point that the media are very nearly making up some of it.  I dunno if Mr. Trump and I agree as to *which* items constitute "fake news," but in the sense that a lot of so-called news is merely emphasis of whatever bad aspects can be dredged up, I agree that it exists.  Are the mainstream news outlets turning into tabloids?

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I grew up in an era when most of the social cues were to be pliant and submissive. Or that's how I interpreted them, at least. There's women my age who don't take s**t from anybody. Different personalities.

Different personalities, true.  But you didn't misinterpret.  When I was in junior high, our home ec class offered subscriptions to a magazine for teen girls.  (Or maybe it was handed out free?  In either case, I'd love to know who was behind it.)  I distinctly recall one item in their advice column, which recommended that girls not "act too smart" because then "boys won't like you" -- and that wasn't just something the other girls said in the restroom, it was in a publication actively sanctioned by the school.  Even at that tender age, I thought that was a load of manure.  I was pretty conventional in most of my attitudes regarding boys, though, I just wasn't about to play dumb, because that would have amounted to lying.  I never have had much sympathy for the "fragile male ego," I guess.

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I recently saw a Tweet that I think summed it up quite well:

dZZbHCD.jpg

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"We NEVER liked you touching us without our permission.  So please stop convincing yourself that it's a new world."

Can't argue with that.  However, I still think some things are currently being overblown and/or actually misrepresented.  Hopefully it's a simple backlash effect and will soon run its course, but I'm not holding my breath.

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7 hours ago, Arcadia said:

And girls should be taught to stand up for themselves. I wasn't; I grew up in an era when most of the social cues were to be pliant and submissive. Or that's how I interpreted them, at least. There's women my age who don't take s**t from anybody. Different personalities.

*sigh* Why can't being human be simple? :D 

I agree, Arcadia; but a lot of Males do seem to have a bad attitude with regards to Females, sadly. 

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1 hour ago, Caya said:

I recently saw a Tweet that I think summed it up quite well:

dZZbHCD.jpg

Excellent Post, Caya! Once again, I say, that sadly too many men have taken too many liberties with women over all the centuries!! 

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2 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Different personalities, true.  But you didn't misinterpret.  When I was in junior high, our home ec class offered subscriptions to a magazine for teen girls.  (Or maybe it was handed out free?  In either case, I'd love to know who was behind it.)  I distinctly recall one item in their advice column, which recommended that girls not "act too smart" because then "boys won't like you" -- and that wasn't just something the other girls said in the restroom, it was in a publication actively sanctioned by the school.  Even at that tender age, I thought that was a load of manure.  I was pretty conventional in most of my attitudes regarding boys, though, I just wasn't about to play dumb, because that would have amounted to lying.  I never have had much sympathy for the "fragile male ego," I guess.

Yes, Carol; I agree! How ridiculous: telling you to not act too smart because boys won't like you!!!! It's that sort of nonsense that's made men worse with their interactions with women!! 

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On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 12:06 PM, Hikari said:

I agree that empowering girls and young women to be able to stand up for themselves against unwanted attentions is a good thing.  I hope moving forward from now that will be a positive development.   Because what I feel the majority of the accusations against high-profile men have accomplished so far is to give the accusers a few minutes of instant gratification social media attention over allegations of incidents that occurred years ago.  In some cases, decades ago.  That doesn't make it OK that they happened, but it makes it very hazy to downright disprovable in recollection, years after the fact if the alleged behavior 1. actually occurred 2. if it did, if it was actually unwanted/non-consensual at the time, or considered any sort of real problem  3. If the accuser stands to gain (or thinks she does) by making these claims now.  

A great many of these accusers cast doubt upon their own veracity when it turns out that they admitted to tolerating unwanted sexual or off-color behavior expressly in order to be cast in a big picture or retain job in said big picture or otherwise burnish their careers or bank accounts.  It's the casting couch, and that predates the movies by a few hundred years, or however long we've had theatre.  Again, it's not right if what they said occurred did occur .  . . .however, short of being forcibly restrained and/or sexually assaulted, nearly all the women whose stories I read *did* have a choice to walk away, to speak up, etc.   What they feared most was not physical harm, but losing a juicy part in a film that would make them a star . . or else an opportunity to be the poster girl du jour for a societal movement with distinct political overtones that was sure to garner them a lot of attention in the press.  (Cf. the Brett Kavanaugh hearings.)  In today's Instagram culture, one's provocative 'information' is the currency they need to stay relevant for however long that lasts.  The whole social media overtone to this thing, down to the Twitter-friendly #MeToo hashtag and frankly juvenile-sounding name, like a bunch of girls swapping stories in a junior-high bathroom, Me, too!  Me, too!  just smacks of this digital generation's incessant craving for social media standing.  It's like a drug.  It demeans true victims of horrific brutal assaults when their stories are crowded out in the Twitterscape by #MeTooers chiming in about the time their boss told them they looked pretty in that dress or a co-worker stood a bit too close at the office Christmas party and smiled at her boobs.   In Twitter culture, there is little sense of proportion or the gravity of one situation outweighing something innocuous.  People today feel entitled to posting their grievances in a public forum every time someone does something They Don't Like.  Causing someone to Not Like Something has become a federal crime, and a cyber-lynching without due process the go-to sentence.  We don't need courts when we've got Twitter followers.

I agree on some level, but … I was sitting around with a group of friends one day, and one of them started talking about a "something" that had happened. And very quietly, one by one, we all said "me too." We weren't even thinking about the now-famous hashtag, it was just what naturally came out. And we sort of looked at each other in mutual recognition, and then went on to talk about something else. But it was cathartic, somehow, to simply have said it.

And then there was the one woman in the room that said she would have slapped the heck out of a boss who affronted her, and walked off the job. And I remember thinking, good for her … but not everyone has the luxury of letting a job slip through their fingers. Particularly in a field like acting, where the opportunities aren't that plentiful to begin with, and a powerful exec can shut you out for good. You have to have power yourself if you want to go against the Big Dogs and survive. And it seems to me that's mostly what we're seeing; women who have made it, and are using their power to decry the system. Or what I'm seeing on TV news and in the papers, which is where I get most of my information. It may be a whole 'nother case on Twitter, for all I know. The internet does seem to bring out the worst in some people.

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On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 2:58 PM, Caya said:

I recently saw a Tweet that I think summed it up quite well:

dZZbHCD.jpg

Bravo!

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On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 1:35 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:

Different personalities, true.  But you didn't misinterpret.  When I was in junior high, our home ec class offered subscriptions to a magazine for teen girls.  (Or maybe it was handed out free?  In either case, I'd love to know who was behind it.)  I distinctly recall one item in their advice column, which recommended that girls not "act too smart" because then "boys won't like you" -- and that wasn't just something the other girls said in the restroom, it was in a publication actively sanctioned by the school.  Even at that tender age, I thought that was a load of manure.

Yep, I remember getting that advice too. I didn't care for it any more than you did. Many, many, many years later, I had a boss … he was more of a friend, really, than a boss, but he paid my wages :smile: who told me that was nuts, a lot of men think smart is really sexy. As shy as I was at the time, it was beneficial to hear him -- a real, honest-to-goodness male - say that. So, kudos to my old boss/friend! I learned he passed away recently, the world is a sadder place without him.

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26 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Many, many, many years later, I had a boss … he was more of a friend, really, than a boss, but he paid my wages :smile: who told me [....] a lot of men think smart is really sexy.

Not sure anyone has ever said that to me.  In fact, when I was in my 30's I lost one serious boyfriend because he was afraid I was smarter than he was.  (And oddly enough, I'm not even *that* smart.)  In hindsight, I figure good riddance!

Some men don't seem to mind, though, and I guess that's good enough.

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I think by "smart", they mean good in science, math and vocabulary, don't they? :D Since I only excelled in one out of the three, I'm not sure I qualify either. :smile: 

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I'm pretty sure that's not what my erstwhile boyfriend meant, since we'd never been in school together.  Well, maybe he thought I knew more words than he did.  Come to think of it, I corrected his misuse of "penultimate."  Maybe he just didn't want a smart*ss girlfriend?

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