Why does "His Last Vow" bother some people?

[Arcadia]

There are tons of rom-coms out there, but there was only one Sherlock-and-John friendship (to the best of my knowledge, but I'm sure open for suggestions).

You're in luck! American television is brimming over with the-two-of-us-against-the-world type friendships, and some of the shows are even pretty good.

 

My all time favorite would be Barney Fife and Andy Taylor from the Andy Griffith Show, but that's probably not what you had in mind.

 

Off the top of my head:

Cagney and Lacey; Scully and Mulder on the X-Files; Starsky & Hutch; House & Wilson on House; Spock & Kirk on Star Trek, with a little Dr. McCoy thrown in for sauce; Hawkeye & Trapper John on M.A.S.H.; Bert & Ernie on Sesame Street ...

 

I don't see too many of the newer shows, I'm afraid. A lot of people like Castle, but that relationship seems forced to me. The Mentalist is better, imo. Then there's the two guys on Pysch. The two guys on the Vampire Diaries (I think that's the right show?) Umm... Elementary, of course ... Gahhh, I know there's more but I can't think of them right now. Anyway, it's pretty much a staple Stateside, especially on cop/detective shows.

[jesskayding]

I agree that there are some thematic similarities with "Study in Pink," but I don't see the episodes as being similar overall. For one thing, "Last Vow" is far, far darker than anything previous. Also, I don't recall ever before being asked to swallow any "surprises" of that magnitude. Maybe "different direction" isn't quite the right term, but to me "Last Vow" definitely seems different.

 

I also agree that the first two episodes of this series pushed the envelope, but I didn't get the feeling that I'd lost my footing till "Last Vow."

Hay we cant really help how we feel. I personally thought TRF was just as dark as HLV, if not darker. And talk about shocking and scary in TGG, lots of darkness & witnessing John wrapped in that bomb. Then it ended with sniper riffles on both of the main characters. At least in HLV we know that Sherlock & John are ok for now. It's a really dark series, like almost all of the time outside of SO3.

[Carol the Dabbler]

You've got good points there, but for whatever reason those episodes didn't leave me feeling upset the way "Last Vow" did.  I agree that all the ingredients were present in the earlier episodes, but I felt confident that everything would turn out OK.  This time around I'm not so sure (and I don't mean that in a suspenseful or exciting way).

 

[jesskayding]

[Caya]

 

You're in luck! American television is brimming over with the-two-of-us-against-the-world type friendships, and some of the shows are even pretty good.

 

My all time favorite would be Barney Fife and Andy Taylor from the Andy Griffith Show, but that's probably not what you had in mind.

 

Off the top of my head:

Cagney and Lacey; Scully and Mulder on the X-Files; Starsky & Hutch; House & Wilson on House; Spock & Kirk on Star Trek, with a little Dr. McCoy thrown in for sauce; Hawkeye & Trapper John on M.A.S.H.; Bert & Ernie on Sesame Street ...

 

I don't see too many of the newer shows, I'm afraid. A lot of people like Castle, but that relationship seems forced to me. The Mentalist is better, imo. Then there's the two guys on Pysch. The two guys on the Vampire Diaries (I think that's the right show?) Umm... Elementary, of course ... Gahhh, I know there's more but I can't think of them right now. Anyway, it's pretty much a staple Stateside, especially on cop/detective shows.

 

Thank you for the list, Arcadia . Unfortunately, I've seen a couple of the older ones, and they really didn't come close to Sherlock-John for me at all. Well, yeah, House and Wilson, but they're very-thinly disguised Holmes and Watson anyway (similar with Cal Lightman and Gillian Foster on Lie to Me). And Kirk-Spock of course, but well, even three seasons of Jurassic Trek and a handful of movies can only be stretched so far (though I must admit I never saw the animated series) ... and I have to admit that I find Kirk Senior annoying at times .

 

I've picked up a bit of the newer shows from when my husband watched them (he's much more into procedurals than me, which isn't exactly hard, admittedly) and none pulled me in, which should've been a given with Castle. Though you did remind me of a great male/female friendship pair - Mal and Zoe. But we all know what happened to Firefly, of course .

 

Thank you again for compiling that list for me . I guess I'm just way too picky. But apart from the Holmes reimaginings, no friendship except for Kirk-Spock has even come close, for me, to the bond that Sherlock and John used to share.

[Arcadia]

Thank you again for compiling that list for me . I guess I'm just way too picky. But apart from the Holmes reimaginings, no friendship except for Kirk-Spock has even come close, for me, to the bond that Sherlock and John used to share.

Well, I can't argue with that, not only is their relationship special, but it's just a more amazing show than most. But it's kind of reassuring, to me at least, that their friendship is not a unique phenomenon, even if it's not portrayed quite as alluringly elsewhere. I guess that has a lot to do with Mssrs. Freeman and Cumberbatch.

 

Oh, Firefly, Firefly. Why is the general public such a bunch of clots .....

[Carol the Dabbler]

To avoid charges of hijacking this thread, I have moved the specifically Trek-oriented posts to "The STAR TREK Connection." 

 

[Arcadia]

Are we getting out of control, Carol?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Not if I can help it! 

 

Actually, I think I was the one who went off on a tangent that time.

 

[by the sea]

.

 

Oh, Firefly, Firefly. Why is the general public such a bunch of clots .....

 

 

Ahhhh ... Firefly !    Nathan Fillion     would make a wonderful partner with Elmer Fudd, he's such a beautiful Canadian guy !!    I love Castle, my PVR overfloweth !  But, to me, the romance of the partnership ... the definite sparkage ... overshadows the partnership of the partnership ... if you see what I mean.  House and Wilson are kind of close to Sherlock and John ... and I'm a big fan of Mr. Leonard ... but towards the end, House was so annoying, I couldn't watch anymore.  I can't seem to get enough of Sherlock and John, however ... I know it'll probably wear off.  It's my nature !  But for now, I can't really get distressed about HLV ... except that we have to wait so long until we get some new Sherlock drama. 

 

Debbie

[jesskayding]

Yeah, that's the only thing bothering me. The wait. ( imagine Jeopardy music chiming in)

[Arcadia]

Oh no, if I have to listen to Jeopardy music while I wait, you might as well shoot me now. Where's Mary?

[jesskayding]

Oh it's not that bad. Hay well maybe they'll change the music with their new host. Alek Tribec is retiring.

[Arcadia]

WHAT!?!?!?!??!

Jeopardy without Alex Trebeck??????? How is that even possible?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Good heavens -- Alex Trebek is not allowed to retire!  Those shows are never the same with a new host.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Good heavens -- Alex Trebek is not allowed to retire!  Those shows are never the same with a new host.

 

 

... though Wikipedia reminds me that Trebek is not the original host of Jeopardy -- and he hasn't turned out too bad!

[sherlockandjohn]

I don't see tears in anyone's eyes! I see some sad and pensive faces, but not tears.

 

I don't see tears either. On that note, I didn't believe (and still don't) that Sherlock's tears on the rooftop were "real", so to speak. They might have been real, but then only as a product of the act he had to perform. Like an actor, he got caught up in his own performance. That's the only explanation I have, anyway, and it makes sense to me. I think I'm going to step on somebody's toes now, but I am wondering if we sometimes see what we want to see. To some extent, of course. I realise that if we only saw what we wanted to, many of us would see tears in John's eyes as well, which we don't. And, anyway, seeing what we want to see is just human. Human error.

 

 

 

Hello! No need for any extra sapp. They've including enough romance, longing, hugs & kisses to appease the female audience w/o having the men upchuck.

 

In a way, we agree. That's why I think the way they handled Mary has been such a mistake. The show should be about the men and their friendship front and center.

 

But then they need to stop bringing these topics into play if they cannot handle them appropriately (and I very much think they did not). No extra sap? Then freaking stop John thinking he's lost Sherlock forever every damn season. But if you have to, do it right. They showed they could at Sherlock's grave. This was just ... sad, but in the entirely wrong way, imho.

 

 

Yeah, I think the writers themselves made s3 pretty sappy I kind of like it, but it surprised me. I agree, it worked better in TRF than in HLV. (Pretty much everything did, imo.) TRF left me feeling fulfilled, although waiting anxiously for the continuation, whereas HLV seems to have ended with A) Sherlock and John accepting Mary having shot Sherlock, B ) Sherlock not suffering any consequences after killing Magnussen, and C) John and Mary never addressing her past. I feel unfulfilled. And while we may not have heard the last about any of this, I doubt any of it will be resolved. In s4, they will move on to entirely new adventures.

 

 

Yeah.. I do feel they married him off too soon. I have to admit though, that SO3 was one of my favorite episodes. Sherlock as best man priceless. I guess we'll have to see what they get on to in season 4.

 

I also feel like I would have wanted to enjoy a few more episodes with John & Sherlock together in 221B. Maybe they should have held off on TRF, per it did make since that John would get on with his life and that was the perfect time in my opinion to meet the woman he would marry. So yeah maybe we needed more of season 1 for season 2.

 

So, so, so agree, but alas, it is too late to change it

[Caya]

 

I don't see tears in anyone's eyes! I see some sad and pensive faces, but not tears.

 

I don't see tears either.

 

I admit they're better visible in motion. Have some gifs (source):

 

[sherlockandjohn]

I can see the slightly red eyes, but considering that the whole image there just looks red-toned, I'm not sure it's tears.

 

Okay, now I've looked at the scene again in HLV, and there could be a sheen in Sherlock's eyes in the very last clip. Not sure, but I can see that it's possible.

[Arcadia]

Nope, still don't see tears. I do seem him pronouncing the "f" and "t" in Mycroft as two completely separate letters, though. I just adore his enunciation!!!

[sherlockandjohn]

Ye-p!

[jesskayding]

 

 

 

 

I don't see tears in anyone's eyes! I see some sad and pensive faces, but not tears.

I don't see tears either.

I admit they're better visible in motion. Have some gifs (source):

 

I see the tears... . no bucket though