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"Reichenbach" Revisited


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Would John have been close enough to even hear the body hitting the ground, though?  I mean sure if the body had fallen as far as Sherlock did, but it didn't so presumably it wouldn't make as much noise?

 

I haven't rewatched this recently, did it give a good idea of what kind of view the sniper had of Bart's?  How would the sniper not see that ridiculous big blue thing parading around the building?  lol.  Cleary, I'm still hung up on big blue.  

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Mycroft's people aiming at John? :blink:

Oh, sorry, no, I meant Mycroft's people who intervened and "invited" Moriarty's sniper to "reconsider".
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Would John have been close enough to even hear the body hitting the ground, though?  I mean sure if the body had fallen as far as Sherlock did, but it didn't so presumably it wouldn't make as much noise?

 

I haven't rewatched this recently, did it give a good idea of what kind of view the sniper had of Bart's?  How would the sniper not see that ridiculous big blue thing parading around the building?  lol.  Cleary, I'm still hung up on big blue.  

 

When the corpse hits the ground in "Reichenbach," we're right there (so close that it's out of focus), and it makes quite a thud.  Obviously, it wouldn't have been that loud from where John was standing, but yes, I think he would have heard it, at least subliminally, which would be sufficient to keep him from having a feeling that something was missing.  As for the body falling a shorter distance than Sherlock did -- unless John is accustomed to hearing bodies fall from a great height, I doubt that his subconscious would have registered the difference in terminal velocities.

 

But as SherlockedCAMPer pointed out, Big Blue would have introduced some noises of its own -- first, some sort of blower noise when it was being inflated (though there are a lot of strange noises in a city, so John might not have noticed that, especially since he was still in the cab for at least part of it) -- and second, a pretty good thwump when Sherlock landed on it, more or less simultaneously with the aforementioned thud.  While I don't know for sure whether it would have been loud enough to cover up the thud, I have a feeling that John would have heard both.  But he was expecting to hear the thud, so his mind (at least his subconscious) would have registered it -- whereas he would have no reason to expect the thwump, and therefore no reason to remember it (it would be just another of those strange city noises).

 

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You're trying to make us all watch it again, aren't you? You fiend! :D

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... the other thing that doesn't make sense to me is, why the body double tossed out the window? All I can figure is that it was a back up plan in case John got too close too soon. On the other hand, I also kind of believe John wasn't even supposed to be there.....

I have never understood that part either. Nor do I understand why Sherlock assumed that Moriarty had used his lookalike to fool Claudette (seems to me there are far easier ways to make her afraid of him).

 

Resorting to real life, I suspect that Moftiss were simply very fond of the idea that Molly's contribution was a corpse, so they kinda shoehorned it in.  (In my pre-Hearse headcanon, Molly's contributions were far greater.)

 

 

Oh, now you got me curious! Would you mind telling what you originally thought Molly did to help? 'Cause I always imagined something like what we saw - her providing a corpse.

 

 

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You're trying to make us all watch it again, aren't you? You fiend! :D

 

What a horrible notion! ;-) Watching my favorite episode of any TV show ever? :nope_sad:

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You're trying to make us all watch it again, aren't you? You fiend! :D

What a horrible notion! ;-) Watching my favorite episode of any TV show ever? :nope_sad:

 

I know, it's diabolical! Um, you think maybe we should report her to one of the moderators? Oh, wait.....
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I don't think for a moment the theory SH told Anderson was true. It was a fairly good.... how I faked it theory...but hey it was Sherlocks!

No Anderson faked the how I did it jack the ripper scene..and Sherlock got revenge with a fake fall theory.

I think the writers never meant to explain TRF and it was just supposed to be one more miracle from Sherlock but the fans obsession with theories got out of hand.

Didn't they say something like..'well it's A theory for those that need one..but it's not THE theory'.

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I don't think for a moment the theory SH told Anderson was true. It was a fairly good.... how I faked it theory...but hey it was Sherlocks!

No Anderson faked the how I did it jack the ripper scene..and Sherlock got revenge with a fake fall theory.

I think the writers never meant to explain TRF and it was just supposed to be one more miracle from Sherlock but the fans obsession with theories got out of hand.

Didn't they say something like..'well it's A theory for those that need one..but it's not THE theory'.

 

At least that is a plausible theory... :)

 

I mean, why would Sherlock tell Anderson the truth. He probably only agreed to that interview to get the guy to shut up and stop bothering him or spreading crazy rumors.

 

I wonder how much Molly knows, by the way. Probably quite a lot. Little harmless-looking Molly, who kept silent for two years. It's amazing that John is not angry at her, isn't it.

 

Sorry to drag my abject love for Miss Hooper in here as well, but I must say, she's among my favorite fictional characters of all times now, I hope we'll see quite a lot of her in the future, and I will go ballistic if they kill her or ruin her character arc by trying to spice her story up the way they did with Mary or by making her Sherlock's girlfriend.

 

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  • 2 months later...

I don't think for a moment the theory SH told Anderson was true. It was a fairly good.... how I faked it theory...but hey it was Sherlocks!

No Anderson faked the how I did it jack the ripper scene..and Sherlock got revenge with a fake fall theory.

I think the writers never meant to explain TRF and it was just supposed to be one more miracle from Sherlock but the fans obsession with theories got out of hand.

Didn't they say something like..'well it's A theory for those that need one..but it's not THE theory'.

You are perfectly right, Mr Moffat said something like that in the extra material of S3 DVD about The Fall. As to Sherlock's sob-filled performance on that rooftop, which I found on another thread I can' seem to locate, if he knew it was part of an elaborate plan, he could get a bit hammy in trying to convince Dr. Watson, after all, he himself said in The Valley of Fear ": Watson insists that I am the dramatist in real life. some touch of the artist wells up within me, and calls instantly for a well-staged performance." And as for doing the Valley, it would take them less than half an hour, not to mention that they have already used the "Dear me, Mr. Holmes, dear me" message already in A Scandal in Belgravia. As for the inflatable Big Blue thing, they are screenwriters, not omniscient beings, after all.
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... the other thing that doesn't make sense to me is, why the body double tossed out the window? All I can figure is that it was a back up plan in case John got too close too soon. On the other hand, I also kind of believe John wasn't even supposed to be there.....

I have never understood that part either. Nor do I understand why Sherlock assumed that Moriarty had used his lookalike to fool Claudette (seems to me there are far easier ways to make her afraid of him).

 

Resorting to real life, I suspect that Moftiss were simply very fond of the idea that Molly's contribution was a corpse, so they kinda shoehorned it in.  (In my pre-Hearse headcanon, Molly's contributions were far greater.)

 

Oh, now you got me curious! Would you mind telling what you originally thought Molly did to help? 'Cause I always imagined something like what we saw - her providing a corpse.

 

Sorry -- somehow I missed seeing your question at the time.  Other than providing the nice "thud" sound effect, I really see no purpose for the corpse.  Sherlock could simply have had the bicycle hit John a bit sooner, before he got quite so far around the Ambulance Station.

 

However, Molly was in a position to do a great deal more.  For example:  She could tell Sherlock what his fake injuries should look like.  She could provide real blood from what had recently expired in the hospital blood bank (John would know the smell of real blood).  She could presumably provide his death certificate.  She could provide genuine hospital gear for the homeless network's "doctors and nurses" to wear, and train them in how to act and how to handle John.  And who knows, maybe the squash ball was her idea?

 

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However, Molly was in a position to do a great deal more.  For example:  She could tell Sherlock what his fake injuries should look like.  She could provide real blood from what had recently expired in the hospital blood bank (John would know the smell of real blood).  She could presumably provide his death certificate.  She could provide genuine hospital gear for the homeless network's "doctors and nurses" to wear, and train them in how to act and how to handle John.  And who knows, maybe the squash ball was her idea?

I still think that's what she did, actually, even if Sherlock only mentioned the body.

 

The weird thing is, Mycroft could as easily, and more safely, provided all that. Frankly, I assume that was a little fan service on Moftiss' part; give Molly something important to do, and hey, might as well toss a bone for the Sherlolly shippers to gnaw on while they're at it.

 

Sorry, I seem to be in full cynic mode tonight! Although to make it less cynical, Moftiss are Molly fans too.

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... Mycroft could as easily, and more safely, provided all that.

How so?  :huh:  Seems more like Molly's bailiwick to me.

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How so?  :huh:  Seems more like Molly's bailiwick to me.

Hey, he's the British government, he can do anything! :) Like filling a plane with dead bodies. Or providing Sherlock with fake documents so he can tootle around the world dismantling Moriarty's network. Heck, if he can hire people to abduct John and "persuade" snipers, surely he can employ a few actors to help fake a death....

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But Mycroft could not have told Sherlock he was loved no matter what. And that's what Molly really did, didn't she. Proved to Sherlock that he'd beaten Moriarty, because there was someone who would not act on any resentment he might have created in her, and who didn't care whether he was famous or clever or anything but just Sherlock. It's because of Molly that Moriarty's plan didn't quite work out.

 

Molly also proves that love is not just a weakness and that friends do indeed protect people.

 

For me, Sherlock won and Moriarty lost the moment Sherlock went to Molly for help and she makes clear she doesn't care who he is or is not or what he's done, she just asks what he needs. After that, Sherlock could have died and Moriarty would still be the looser.

 

It's such a typical villain-blind-spot, unconditional love. And Moriarty even went out with Molly! Her crush on Sherlock was completely obvious! But I guess he didn't understand it. He probably thought it was just that, a crush, a silly infatuation, and that she'd turn on Sherlock some day after having been repulsed once too often.

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But Mycroft could not have told Sherlock he was loved no matter what. And that's what Molly really did, didn't she. Proved to Sherlock that he'd beaten Moriarty, because there was someone who would not act on any resentment he might have created in her, and who didn't care whether he was famous or clever or anything but just Sherlock. It's because of Molly that Moriarty's plan didn't quite work out.

 

Molly also proves that love is not just a weakness and that friends do indeed protect people.

 

For me, Sherlock won and Moriarty lost the moment Sherlock went to Molly for help and she makes clear she doesn't care who he is or is not or what he's done, she just asks what he needs. After that, Sherlock could have died and Moriarty would still be the looser.

 

It's such a typical villain-blind-spot, unconditional love. And Moriarty even went out with Molly! Her crush on Sherlock was completely obvious! But I guess he didn't understand it. He probably thought it was just that, a crush, a silly infatuation, and that she'd turn on Sherlock some day after having been repulsed once too often.

Nice! Quite frankly (because I'm still in cynic mode, apparently) I think Sherlock would have executed the Fall precisely the same way if Molly Hooper never existed. I actually assumed it would turn out he was still manipulating her, like always, to get what he wanted, until TEH, when his affection and gratitude still seemed genuine. (Yay!) But I like your take on it. When I shake off whatever it is that's dogging me, I can go with that!

 

I don't think it mattered to Moriarty what Molly felt about Sherlock; what was important to him was discovering whether or not Sherlock cared about her. Whether she was a pressure point. His mistake was a) not realizing Sherlock could have changed his attitude towards her and B ) thinking that if she didn't matter to Sherlock, she didn't matter, period. Dolt. :smile:

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But Mycroft could not have told Sherlock he was loved no matter what. And that's what Molly really did, didn't she. Proved to Sherlock that he'd beaten Moriarty, because there was someone who would not act on any resentment he might have created in her, and who didn't care whether he was famous or clever or anything but just Sherlock. It's because of Molly that Moriarty's plan didn't quite work out.

 

Molly also proves that love is not just a weakness and that friends do indeed protect people.

 

For me, Sherlock won and Moriarty lost the moment Sherlock went to Molly for help and she makes clear she doesn't care who he is or is not or what he's done, she just asks what he needs. After that, Sherlock could have died and Moriarty would still be the looser.

 

It's such a typical villain-blind-spot, unconditional love. And Moriarty even went out with Molly! Her crush on Sherlock was completely obvious! But I guess he didn't understand it. He probably thought it was just that, a crush, a silly infatuation, and that she'd turn on Sherlock some day after having been repulsed once too often.

 

In the larger sense, I totally agree with this.  Sherlock won when he found out that there are people who love him unconditionally.

 

Of course, they need to return the favor.  I realize that John, Mrs. Hudson, and Lestrade didn't know how much Sherlock sacrificed for them even after he returned because he kept getting caught in the "how" rather than the "why," but he showed as much unconditional love as anyone in wanting his friends safe and Moriarty stopped.  I'm never sure that they all completely realized that.  

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I don't think for a moment the theory SH told Anderson was true. It was a fairly good.... how I faked it theory...but hey it was Sherlocks!

No Anderson faked the how I did it jack the ripper scene..and Sherlock got revenge with a fake fall theory.

I think the writers never meant to explain TRF and it was just supposed to be one more miracle from Sherlock but the fans obsession with theories got out of hand.

Didn't they say something like..'well it's A theory for those that need one..but it's not THE theory'.

You are perfectly right, Mr Moffat said something like that in the extra material of S3 DVD about The Fall. As to Sherlock's sob-filled performance on that rooftop, which I found on another thread I can' seem to locate, if he knew it was part of an elaborate plan, he could get a bit hammy in trying to convince Dr. Watson, after all, he himself said in The Valley of Fear ": Watson insists that I am the dramatist in real life. some touch of the artist wells up within me, and calls instantly for a well-staged performance." And as for doing the Valley, it would take them less than half an hour, not to mention that they have already used the "Dear me, Mr. Holmes, dear me" message already in A Scandal in Belgravia. As for the inflatable Big Blue thing, they are screenwriters, not omniscient beings, after all.

 

 

Ermahgerd!  That quote... that is so Sherlock.  I really gots to get to reading my books I bought over the holidays.

 

I feel like big blue has almost become its own living thing... lol.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It's such a typical villain-blind-spot, unconditional love. And Moriarty even went out with Molly! Her crush on Sherlock was completely obvious! But I guess he didn't understand it. He probably thought it was just that, a crush, a silly infatuation, and that she'd turn on Sherlock some day after having been repulsed once too often.

 

I confess that I might as well have believed the same, if I had actually given it some consideration. Molly's actions in The Reichenbach Fall were unexpected and absolutely wonderful. I like that someone's unconditional devotion to Sherlock was a key element in bringing Moriarty down. And I really like that that someone was Molly - a person who had been ridiculed publically and taken advantage of by Sherlock several times. I know I like to laugh at Sherlock's arrogance, but really, he could be truly cruel to Molly. The fact that she had such a big crush on Sherlock just made his behavior towards her seem all the worse. So her reaching out to him, even as he is starting to reject her, is a powerful action. If for no other reason, I will always love Molly for this one act.

 

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Hello, sherlockandjohn -- nice to see some posts from you today!  Hope you've simply been busy with interesting things.

 

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It's kinda blurry, but judging by Google Satellite View, I think that sidewalk is right around ten feet wide, which is 3 meters.  Then you'd need to add the distance from where Sherlock is standing on the ledge to the actual edge of the roof, plus the distance from the curb to the center line of the truck.

Oi, it's hard being a filmmaker nowaday... You have people who just go and look up on Google. Or visit the place with StreetView and point out "faults" that are nothing else than usual methods of filmmaking. shakehead.gif   :P

 

I did. I can provide a pic if requested. There are actually two spots on Bart's roof where the scene was shot. One for showing Sherlock from John's POV, and another one for the showdown between Sherlock and Moriarty. It doesn't mean that S was actually cheating. It would be like accusing 221B's door being a beaming machine because the street is in London and the interior... er... somewhere else, far far away. This is how movies are shot. Now, if there was a normal show, I would say it is wrong to make cutting techniques into conspiracy theories, but with Mofftiss - I would say there is a 5-10% chance that there might be something...

 

Now, to the theories:

There is only one "true" version of the fall. It is the one we have seen in TRF. This version has huge holes, but I wouldn't fill them with anything that was shown in TEH.

 

What we see?

Sherlock jumping from the roof. 

A living person falling - that's why a dummy or dead body double don't work - they don't try to stabilize their fall. It doesn't have to be Sherlock, but don't try to prove it by making screencaps of the fall - the guy flying is OF COURSE not BC. That's what the stuntmen are for. evilgrin.gif

Then there is a body hitting the pavement.

Later we see it from above with people gathering around. (it could mean someone is observing the scene from above, or it's just another camera angle)

John is coming and fighting his way to the body. I write body because it could be a double. IMO John was in shock, and because he actually saw Sherlock jumping, he wouldn't recognize a fake - we all see what we expect to see and not what's there - and John was absolutely focused on the idea of dead Sherlock lying on the ground.

Alternatively it could be Sherlock faking death with the false blood and the ball trick. But John is prevented from any longer contact with... whoever lies there.

 

So far so good. 

 

I am really not sure if S deducted a possibility of Moriarty shooting himself. But even if - there were more options, and in other alternate outcomes M was alive. And that's why any preparations had to be hidden not only from John, but also from M on the roof and from the sniper who seems to hide somewhere in the building on the opposite side of the street.

So Big Blue doesn't work for me. Too big, too loud. A simple Life Net would be more handy, but M would have seen it from above. Even if he was few steps away from the edge after S asked for a minute of privacy, still the "dead-body-on-the-ground" scenery had to be prepared in few seconds.

 

 

Well, I think the Mary Poppins theory fits the best so far. big-grin.gif

 

post-1784-0-67134800-1422382089_thumb.jpg

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Hello, sherlockandjohn -- nice to see some posts from you today!  Hope you've simply been busy with interesting things.

 

Oh, yeah, I haven't fallen off the face of the Earth, or anything ;-) Though I did visit the other side of the Earth for three weeks...  B)

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:) Thank you, yes, New Zealand is beautiful. Been there before for 7 months on a working holiday. This time was just holiday, no work  ;) Lots of driving, though.

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