Mycroft Holmes

[Hikari]

Thus..."Sherlock", a family therapy for the Gatiss boys :D? If only every family problem could be turned into such a work!

 

JP, I don't know any other role by MG, but I have read he took the model of Peter Mandelson, a British politician, to create his Mycroft.

 

I would'nt say he wrote something just for himself. Mycroft is there only when needed, it is not an overwhelming and unjustified presence. But he's so good that he takes it all in any scene, even the shorter ones, even if there are no lines, just with gesture and expressions on his face.  

 

Janyss,

 

For a completely different (and I mean, 180 degrees) from Mycroft Holmes from Mark Gatiss, please watch "Starter for 10", which no doubt has a different name in your country, but it stars James McAvoy, Benedict C., Mark G. and Alice Eve.  You may have heard of 'University Challenge', the English quiz show for college teams from all over the country?  We have 'Jeopardy!' here in the States, which has an annual collegiate tournament which is similar, but I gather that 'University Challenge' is a TV institution in Britain.  McAvoy plays a blue-collar young man from Essex who loved watching UC with his late father and it's been his long-held dream to be on a UC team.  He gets a place at Bristol University, and wins a spot on their quiz team, presided over by the team captain, 'Patrick' (a tour-de-force nerd performance by BC).  Mark G. plays (real-life) UC host Bamber Gascoigne . . he is unrecognizable!

 

'Patrick' idolizes Mr. Gascoigne and in a place of honor in his flat, above the television, there is a framed photo of the two shaking hands, Patrick looking like a supreme dork in his excitement over shaking hands with his hero.  (Comprendez vous 'dork'? :))  This is, I believe, the first professional collaboration between BC and MG, and 5 years later, Mark knew just the young actor he wanted for Sherlock.

 

Starter for 10 has been described as a British take on a John Hughes film.  It's set in the 1980s and has that music and that coming-of-age vibe.  Not to mention the outdated styles.  Bendi in acid-washed high waisted jeans will make you laugh.  Cumber-friend from childhood, Rebecca Hall plays the 'Molly Ringwald' role as the smart and sassy indie girl with the interesting wardrobe.  Alice Eve is the unobtainable and incredibly shallow blonde beauty.  By the way, 'Lady Smallwood', Lindsay Duncan, has a small but extremely memorable role as the blonde girl's mother.

 

Incidentally, BC and Alice Eve would work together again on Star Trek: Into Darkness.

 

As for other Mark Gatiss perfomances . . He appeared in "Murder at the Vicarage", the first of Geraldine McEwan's Marple episodes (2004 or 2005) . . and would turn up again as another theological type in an episode of Lewis.  Interesting how he gets cast as priests when he's not casting himself!

[J.P.]

You can watch The worst Journey in the World on YouTube

[Carol the Dabbler]

We have 'Jeopardy!' here in the States, which has an annual collegiate tournament which is similar, but I gather that 'University Challenge' is a TV institution in Britain.  [....]  Mark G. plays (real-life) UC host Bamber Gascoigne . . he is unrecognizable!

 

University Challenge is actually based on an even *more* similar American show, College Bowl (and produced under license)  Of course the American football theme (including the theme music) would make little sense in the UK, so the details were reinvented.

 

Unlike College Bowl hosts, Gascoigne wasn't just the the on-air face of University Challenge, he reportedly also verified each of the questions ahead of time, and would occasionally rewrite one.  Also, here are some photos of him, to compare to MG (with other cast members) in Starter for 10.

[Boton]

[waves to Boton] I am back and still wanting that fic. :3

 

*Definitely* in 2018.   :) No, seriously, it is still on my mind and I plan to do it.

[Janyss]

Thanks for advice, everyone...May be for next holidays, these ones become shorter and shorter...

 

Hikari, I think I got the meaning of "dork", that could be may be tranlated by something like "crétin", or "abruti", or even here, "plante verte" :)...And you can say me "comprends-TU ce mot?". "Comprenez-vous" is perfectly correct, but very formal to address only one person.

 

I've been through a few photographs of John Steed, whom MG sais somewhere he wanted to "invoke" when creating his Mycroft. Very similar (notice the umbrella!), but these British secret agents of the 60's are full of humour and optimism in these times of 60's and swinging London...A few decades later, they worry much about a chaotic so-called "new world order" and décisions to be made in it...Poor Mycroft. 

[Hikari]

Janyss,

 

Of course I consider you a friend, but I didn't want to overstep myself and address you as 'tu', especially since I don't really speak French and am just faking it, you see.  I would have no doubt gotten 'Comprends-tu ce mot?' entirely wrong, but thank you for increasing my very limited store of your beautiful language.

 

Do I guess correctly that a dork in French is a 'green plant'?  Harsh!  :)  We'd say 'vegetable' in English.  Cretin is similar, though a 'vegetable' is even worse off and most likely on life support.  The English 'dork' is not so dire.  In fact, it means the same thing as 'nerd'.  But 'nerd' is a more old-fashioned word.  My parents would have called someone a nerd; 'dork' came into existence in my era, the 1980s, to refer to the same type of person.  They are not necessarily 'cretins'-- they can be very intelligent, but they are not 'cool kids' . . either they have some obsessive form of interest (usually scientific) that is above others' understanding, and/or they are socially awkward in some way.  Usually their clothes are weird, also.

 

Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes both dress beautifully as adults, but I think it is safe to say that both would have been called 'Dorks' in their school days.  The difference between them is that Mycroft never noticed, or if he did, he did not care one bit.  'Goldfish' opinions did not matter at all.  Sherlock pretends that he does not care what 'ordinary people' think of him, but he actually does.  Every time someone calls him a 'Freak', it hurts.

 

Kids can be mean.  I'm sure I was labeled a dork in school . . the good students are often called such, if they are not popular.  I found a little band of fellow dorks and I hung out with them!

[Boton]

 

Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes both dress beautifully as adults, but I think it is safe to say that both would have been called 'Dorks' in their school days.  The difference between them is that Mycroft never noticed, or if he did, he did not care one bit.  'Goldfish' opinions did not matter at all.  Sherlock pretends that he does not care what 'ordinary people' think of him, but he actually does.  Every time someone calls him a 'Freak', it hurts.

 

Kids can be mean.  I'm sure I was labeled a dork in school . . the good students are often called such, if they are not popular.  I found a little band of fellow dorks and I hung out with them!

 

I agree with both being called dorks in their school days, but I wonder if Mycroft let it roll off his back so easily when he was younger. To me, "goldfish" is an extreme thing to say about other people, no matter your intelligence level, and I wonder if there is a hint of defensiveness there: other people are no more important than goldfish, so I don't have to consider their opinions of me. I think Mycroft was well on his way to constructing a shell where he dressed correctly, spoke correctly, and looked down upon others, and the defense worked for him.  He tried to make it work for Sherlock, because clearly, he tried to shield Sherlock from every emotion, but Sherlock is a much more emotional or perhaps impulsive person, and he is always about to stumble into the potholes that Mycroft would avoid.

 

Think about the Victor/Redbeard killing. Sherlock was what? Five? So Mycroft was 12. Mycroft was old enough to try to put some sort of intellectual framework around what he saw happen, but the part that impressed him so much was not necessarily that his sister was a psychopath (which came out over time), but that his little brother had a mental breakdown over the loss of his best friend. With his parents having their hands full with two mentally ill children, Mycroft was probably left alone more than he should have been to process this, and he determined that if Sherlock had not had a friend, he wouldn't have been hurt.  This squared nicely with what Mycroft was probably learning from the bullies at school, so he decided all "normal" people were beneath him and his siblings and set out to try to teach Sherlock to simply avoid any interactions with people that could lead to friendship or attachment. But it came more naturally to Mycroft to cut people out, probably in part because he was an only child for the first 7 years of life, and I can tell you that being an only for any period of time can really change your perspective on people.

 

Or, you know, that whole thing could be fan fiction I'm writing for myself.  But I like the theory.

[Hikari]

 

 

Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes both dress beautifully as adults, but I think it is safe to say that both would have been called 'Dorks' in their school days.  The difference between them is that Mycroft never noticed, or if he did, he did not care one bit.  'Goldfish' opinions did not matter at all.  Sherlock pretends that he does not care what 'ordinary people' think of him, but he actually does.  Every time someone calls him a 'Freak', it hurts.

 

Kids can be mean.  I'm sure I was labeled a dork in school . . the good students are often called such, if they are not popular.  I found a little band of fellow dorks and I hung out with them!

 

I agree with both being called dorks in their school days, but I wonder if Mycroft let it roll off his back so easily when he was younger. To me, "goldfish" is an extreme thing to say about other people, no matter your intelligence level, and I wonder if there is a hint of defensiveness there: other people are no more important than goldfish, so I don't have to consider their opinions of me. I think Mycroft was well on his way to constructing a shell where he dressed correctly, spoke correctly, and looked down upon others, and the defense worked for him.  He tried to make it work for Sherlock, because clearly, he tried to shield Sherlock from every emotion, but Sherlock is a much more emotional or perhaps impulsive person, and he is always about to stumble into the potholes that Mycroft would avoid.

 

Think about the Victor/Redbeard killing. Sherlock was what? Five? So Mycroft was 12. Mycroft was old enough to try to put some sort of intellectual framework around what he saw happen, but the part that impressed him so much was not necessarily that his sister was a psychopath (which came out over time), but that his little brother had a mental breakdown over the loss of his best friend. With his parents having their hands full with two mentally ill children, Mycroft was probably left alone more than he should have been to process this, and he determined that if Sherlock had not had a friend, he wouldn't have been hurt.  This squared nicely with what Mycroft was probably learning from the bullies at school, so he decided all "normal" people were beneath him and his siblings and set out to try to teach Sherlock to simply avoid any interactions with people that could lead to friendship or attachment. But it came more naturally to Mycroft to cut people out, probably in part because he was an only child for the first 7 years of life, and I can tell you that being an only for any period of time can really change your perspective on people.

 

Or, you know, that whole thing could be fan fiction I'm writing for myself.  But I like the theory.

 

 

After I wrote that, I reconsidered my comment that Mycroft let slights roll off.  As we know, he is a compulsive Listmaker (or File-maker, rather) with a prodigious memory.  Like an elephant's, with, now, all the power of the British government behind him.  But apropos of what you wrote above, I think Mycroft's 'File' may have started with cataloguing personal insults, but once his little brother grew old enough to be out in the world and subjected to the slings and arrows of other children, M.'s focus shifted to cataloguing wrongs done to his sibling.  I can well imagine that a pubescent Myc devised smooth (and untraceable) methods of revenge upon any bullies that tormented his little brother.  This eldest sibling protective mode continues to this day.  Myc is still worrying about his wayward, impulsive little brother even though Little Bro is now pushing 40 years of age.  Compared to the stringent emotional discipline cultivated by 'Iceman', Little Bro is an emotional mess.  But then, Sherl is the younger one.

 

My fondness for 'Myc' stems from being the eldest of four children myself.  I was an 'only' for the first four years; by the time I was seven, I had three sisters, so my parents were very prolific for three years.  I deduce that you are an eldest, too, Boton?  To my regret, I was not as good a big sibling to mine as Mycroft has been to his . . but then, he's fictional and I am not so lucky.  We oldests are, by dint of our birth position, most apt to be treated as 'Little Adults' and adapt to acting as such.  With only adults around us for companionship we talk early (and perhaps walk late, on account of being carried around constantly lest the floor damage our little feet) and absorb the brunt of the parental values and temperaments.  This can be both good and bad.  So of course, Myc grew to be Mummy's Little Helper and learned how to present a pleasing outer mien to the adults.  Being part of the Grown Ups Club is important to us Eldests.  Being associated with the infant set--those dribbling, un-pottytrained, non-verbal rug rats--is distasteful.  I always bonded immediately with my teachers and other adults and vastly preferred their company and conversation to that of my peers or (ugh) my juniors.  So far, so Mycroft!

 

Every President of the United States, all 45 of them, have been either an oldest son or an only child.  This demonstrates that the qualities being born first imbues one with tend to prime one to be a leader.  The younger-borns compensate by being, as a group, more easy-going, likeable, happy individuals, even if their outward accomplishments aren't so high-toned in the eyes of society.  It can be lonely at the top.  Even though Myc insists that he's not lonely.  He may actually be lonely, but he has trained himself to eradicate the recognition of that uncomfortable feeling from his mental lexicon.  If he has a twinge of loneliness, he confuses it with indigestion, or perhaps a headache.

 

Your theory makes perfect sense in the context of Mofftiss's Season 4.  That series is what it is . . I don't think that that particular set of plot developments was in any way true to the spirit of the creations of Conan Doyle, which Mofftiss had been respectful of up until then.  Despite some top-level acting from our cast, and a great villan in Culverton Smith in TLD . . .I personally reject and repudiate the whole "Psychopathic Sister/Childhood Trauma/Mental Breakdown Induced Amnesia" schtick that was introduced into this season.  Mofftiss got it into their heads that they were going to do their own riff on "James Bond meets Shutter Island".  It was their show and they could do what they wanted--Unfortunately, in this case.  That last episode is dead to me.  But yours is a good theory if we leave it in . . you should write that fan fic.  In exchange, I will write the one about Sherlock's bugged underpants.  Deal?  :)

[Boton]

 

 

 

My fondness for 'Myc' stems from being the eldest of four children myself.  I was an 'only' for the first four years; by the time I was seven, I had three sisters, so my parents were very prolific for three years.  I deduce that you are an eldest, too, Boton?  To my regret, I was not as good a big sibling to mine as Mycroft has been to his . . but then, he's fictional and I am not so lucky.  We oldests are, by dint of our birth position, most apt to be treated as 'Little Adults' and adapt to acting as such.  With only adults around us for companionship we talk early (and perhaps walk late, on account of being carried around constantly lest the floor damage our little feet) and absorb the brunt of the parental values and temperaments.  This can be both good and bad.  So of course, Myc grew to be Mummy's Little Helper and learned how to present a pleasing outer mien to the adults.  Being part of the Grown Ups Club is important to us Eldests.  Being associated with the infant set--those dribbling, un-pottytrained, non-verbal rug rats--is distasteful.  I always bonded immediately with my teachers and other adults and vastly preferred their company and conversation to that of my peers or (ugh) my juniors.  So far, so Mycroft!

 

Every President of the United States, all 45 of them, have been either an oldest son or an only child.  This demonstrates that the qualities being born first imbues one with tend to prime one to be a leader.  The younger-borns compensate by being, as a group, more easy-going, likeable, happy individuals, even if their outward accomplishments aren't so high-toned in the eyes of society.  It can be lonely at the top.  Even though Myc insists that he's not lonely.  He may actually be lonely, but he has trained himself to eradicate the recognition of that uncomfortable feeling from his mental lexicon.  If he has a twinge of loneliness, he confuses it with indigestion, or perhaps a headache.

 

Your theory makes perfect sense in the context of Mofftiss's Season 4.  That series is what it is . . I don't think that that particular set of plot developments was in any way true to the spirit of the creations of Conan Doyle, which Mofftiss had been respectful of up until then.  Despite some top-level acting from our cast, and a great villan in Culverton Smith in TLD . . .I personally reject and repudiate the whole "Psychopathic Sister/Childhood Trauma/Mental Breakdown Induced Amnesia" schtick that was introduced into this season.  Mofftiss got it into their heads that they were going to do their own riff on "James Bond meets Shutter Island".  It was their show and they could do what they wanted--Unfortunately, in this case.  That last episode is dead to me.  But yours is a good theory if we leave it in . . you should write that fan fic.  In exchange, I will write the one about Sherlock's bugged underpants.  Deal?  :)

 

 

First, yeah, it's a deal.  I'd love to write that fan fic.  And I must read the one with the bugged undies!

 

I'm an only child; my dad is the oldest of two, with a nine year gap between him and his sister. Between the two of us, we are very good at always being the "little adult," always trying to fix every problem by ourselves with our own resources. It doesn't surprise me at all that Mycroft worked his way into a position where he doesn't ask for help so much as he commands assets. We always take the brunt of the responsibility on our shoulders.  I identify with Mycroft a lot, including his ridiculous belief that he can somehow control his brother's emotions; I've done similar things (not as dramatic) believing that if I just kept tight enough control over everything, I could spare everyone pain and disappointment.

 

Recognizing loneliness has been a challenge for me too, just as it has Mycroft.  What constitutes "lonely" when you are an only child? On the one hand, you have all the attention from your parents you could ever desire, but on the other, you know how to scale every game and toy you ever encounter down to something that can be played alone (or with a parent). That's not a complaint; I really enjoyed being an only, but I feel like I know where Mycroft is coming from a lot of the time.

[Artemis]

Even though Myc insists that he's not lonely.  He may actually be lonely, but he has trained himself to eradicate the recognition of that uncomfortable feeling from his mental lexicon.  If he has a twinge of loneliness, he confuses it with indigestion, or perhaps a headache.

 

Recognizing loneliness has been a challenge for me too, just as it has Mycroft.  What constitutes "lonely" when you are an only child?

 

That's true, and something I can relate to as well.  For a long time I was unable to recognize my own loneliness.  If I'd been asked back then whether I was lonely, I probably would have responded with a weird look and a 'No,' (why would you even think that?).  It wasn't until I developed a close bond with someone who was a steady part of my life for a time that I realized how lonely I'd unknowingly been.  It's one of those situations where you don't know what you're missing until you've had it.

 

I'm not an only child, but I definitely felt like one a lot.  There are 5 years between me and my elder (half-)brother, which was a large enough gap to keep us out of each other's social spheres and out of sync with what was happening in each other's lives.  We couldn't relate to each other because we are so different in every way, life experience included.  But most of all, he was gone all the time.  He was very social and often away from home, only returning to sleep; so there was little interaction between us and not much of his presence in the house.  I was often alone.  However, I don't have the 'only child' experience of getting all the attention from my parents.  I was paid very little mind.  I matured very early and thus had difficulty relating to my peers, but having no younger siblings I never desired nor was required to be part of "The Grown-Ups Club" either (although I was expected to behave like an adult and take care of myself), so I was left sort of in between worlds.

 

 

[Janyss]

Great how Mycroft's character (with his qualities and failings) rings various bells in everyone : weight put by the parents on the first-born, relations of a gifted child with other children and adults, brotherhood...However, I don't know if there can be any kind of "reality" in the Holmes siblings' childhood. I completely consider the last episode as a metaphore. If not, many things are quite incoherent...

 

Hikari, I'm sure you remember much French in spite of what you assert: a British neighbour  of mine (we have many British dwellers in South-West France, fortunately for my English) told me the difference between "tu" and "vous" was something he had absolutely never understood.  

[Hikari]

Great how Mycroft's character (with his qualities and failings) rings various bells in everyone : weight put by the parents on the first-born, relations of a gifted child with other children and adults, brotherhood...However, I don't know if there can be any kind of "reality" in the Holmes siblings' childhood. I completely consider the last episode as a metaphore. If not, many things are quite incoherent...

 

Hikari, I'm sure you remember much French in spite of what you assert: a British neighbour  of mine (we have many British dwellers in South-West France, fortunately for my English) told me the difference between "tu" and "vous" was something he had absolutely never understood.  

 

Games Day @ 221B

 

M:  Don't be smart, Sherlock.

 

S:  That takes me back.  (childish voice) "Don't be smart, Sherlock.  I'm the smart one."

 

M: (glowering):  I AM the smart one.

 

S:  I used to think I was an idiot.

 

M (avuncular):  Both of us thought you were an idiot, Sherlock.  We had nothing else to go on . . .  Until we met other children.

 

S: Ah, yes, that was a mistake.

 

M:  Ghastly!  What were they thinking of?

 

S:  Probably something about trying to make friends.

 

M:  Ah, yes . . .friends (said like 'toadstools')  Of course, you go in for that sort of thing now.

 

*************

 

Re. 'vous' and 'tu' . . . I have no trouble understanding the reasoning.  But I have studied German which has 'du' and 'Sie', and Spanish, which also has 'tu' and 'Usted'.

And Japanese, which has dozens of layers of crippling formality, all potential mindfields to the foreign speaker.  The Japanese rarely actually say any form of personal pronouns such as 'I' or 'you' . .they are most often implied by one's verbs.  'Anata' means 'you', and it is used by a parent to a child, often in a scolding manner, or between spouses/romantic partners as a term of endearment, or between close friends.  You really don't hear it in formal conversation.  It would be a major faux pas to address your boss or any social superior to yourself as 'anata'.  Way too familiar.  The Japanese most often use titles followed by the honorific -san when addressing superiors and people they don't know well.  It's exceedingly formal.

 

English has no such distinction between pronouns to designate the formality or informality of a relationship between the speaker and the addressee.  We have to rely on context and the other words surrounding it to make something formal or informal.  Putting a 'Hey' in front of 'you' makes it instantly informal . .or rude, depending.

 

*************************

[J.P.]

Tu and du and other informal pronouns - it's the same as thou in old English. Actually English adopted the more formal version and use it for everyone. How very British… :D

[Artemis]

I recently learned that “ain’t” used to be a proper and formal word used by the aristocracy, but as the lower classes adopted it, the aristocracy abandoned it, and thus it became “slang”. God forbid they should share anything in common with the lower classes!

[Janyss]

Your statements about Japanese, German and English low/upper classes is a pleasure to read! Would be great to have time to learn more!

 

Sure Mycroft would enjoy this chat (or, he would remind us his method to learn Serbian "in a couple of hours" :) !

[Boton]

I recently learned that “ain’t” used to be a proper and formal word used by the aristocracy, but as the lower classes adopted it, the aristocracy abandoned it, and thus it became “slang”. God forbid they should share anything in common with the lower classes!

 

I don't have time to look it up right now, but there is some interesting research out there about baby-naming patterns.  A name will become popular with the "aristocracy" and, a generation or so later, it will have drifted down to the lower classes. For example, since William and Harry have a little girl Charlotte, I would expect Charlotte to be a lower-mid to lower class name in the next generation.

[J.P.]

In German and in Polish the difference is not about classes but about the level of intimacy. Saying thou to an adult stranger would be considered rude because it is a verbal invasion in your personal space.

[Arcadia]

Great how Mycroft's character (with his qualities and failings) rings various bells in everyone : weight put by the parents on the first-born, relations of a gifted child with other children and adults, brotherhood...However, I don't know if there can be any kind of "reality" in the Holmes siblings' childhood. I completely consider the last episode as a metaphore. If not, many things are quite incoherent...

Hm, I hadn't thought of looking at the last episode that way. I know what you mean, I think, because I think parts of Last Vow (and maybe some bits from other episodes) are meant to be taken metaphorically. In particular, the mind-palace sequence after Sherlock is shot; I think you take that scene literally at your peril. :smile:

 

The question is, though, metaphor for what? I'll have to think about that. Anyone else have an idea?

[Janyss]

The more I rewatch, the more I keep my take on a kind of geopolitical tale. Or (more widely than only in the political field, that MG seems very interested in), something about the mad (or at least irrational) part of human being, his attraction to evil...that he must know, accept, control a minimum (with art, for eg)...I've read somewhere that Mark Gatiss's parents worked in psychiatry and that he spent time of his childhood close to mentally ill people. Can others confirm this part of biography?

[J.P.]

Yes, that it what I've read in some interviews. He also was driven to the macabre and horror films.

[Arcadia]

Interesting, I did not know this thing about Mark.

 

I do think there's a certain point of view underlying Sherlock, a sort of mild liberalism ... prejudice is bad, gay is okay, the surveillance state is a necessary (?) evil ... but I wouldn't say the show promotes those attitudes, exactly, it just treats them as the norm. It may seem more provocative now, because recent events have shown those attitudes aren't always the norm. But I don't think it's really meant to be provocative. Instructive, perhaps.

[J.P.]

 

the show promotes those attitudes, exactly, it just treats them as the norm.

This is actually what I love about the show. They are making no fuss about things people tend to make fuss about. It's too bad it was misunderstood. Or maybe I got it all wrong. But I like my interpretation, so I will stick to it.

[Arcadia]

Yes, it was refreshing when first encountered, wasn't it? *sigh* Nothing ever remains pure, I guess.

[Janyss]

The show mixes different ways to deal with political and social issues (humour or serious ways), but the writers really describe these issues: two young men who are not exactly in the norm trying to find their path and finding a professionnal success after difficult times, their relations with the power, with good and evil, rationality, feelings, not really sure about sex...universal issues, that also was a key to success, I guess.

[Arcadia]

As many of us have noted elsewhere ... whether they intended it or not, the show and the characters just feel so relatable to so many of us. So much so, that we sometimes see Important Social Statements where they don't really exist, perhaps? Which is okay with me ... being able to read meaning into it is just another reason for me to love this show to death. Plus you just don't encounter that kind of celebration of the "unusual" very often ... most shows try so hard to be about the "common man" that I, at least, tend to find them boring. A trait I share with Sherlock, I suspect.  ^_^