Meta: Sherlock, Aspergers and Autism - the psychiatrists opinion

[bedelia1984]

Wow, there's a new one ... Mycroft manipulating Sherlock into shooting Magnussen? Oooo, do we really think he's that .... erm, twisted? If it turns out to be true, I hope John punches his lights out.....

 

 

The thing I didn't understand about Mycroft in that episode was the way he fobbed off the idea that Magnusseun was a threat to national security. I thought it should have bothered him way more that Magnussen was becoming practically omnipotent. Isn't that Mycroft's role?! Though, if Magnussen was right that Mycroft wanted Sherlock to break into his vault, maybe things just got out of control after that. I still would say it was a very dangerous call, as Sherlock is at his most unpredictable when cornered and when someone he loves has been threatened. I feel so badly for him in this episode, as he has just sworn to protect John and his whole family, and then has no comprehension how to actually do it whilst preserving his own safety and well-being. It's so much responsibility, and he's not even the one who got married.

 

 

 

 

[J.P.]

This is even less transparent than TRF. Absolutely no idea. What the drug bust scene would be about in that light? Mycroft scaring off the "Fans" is one thing, but the outbreak of violence doesn't look like they are playing a game for John. And there is that "what have you done?", which seems one of very rare genuine reactions from Mycroft - but as you wrote, that might also be because their plan went a bit wrong.

[bedelia1984]

What the drug bust scene would be about in that light? Mycroft scaring off the "Fans" is one thing, but the outbreak of violence doesn't look like they are playing a game for John.

 

 

I had forgotten this, and there is a definite nasty undertone in that scene. I do sometimes think Mycroft deliberately baits Sherlock, just to see what he will do, almost for the entertainment of it. In my opinion, Mycroft sees himself as God-like, which is so dangerous, because he could order a killing, or arrange for Sherlock to commit one, (to him it might make no difference which, except that Sherlock could find out the 'truth' first, which someone else might not) and either way have no remorse. He seems like the type who has arranged assassinations before. The part that irks me about that is that Sherlock has at least some emotional fragility, which Mycroft seems to deliberately ignore. They have such a bizarre relationship.

 

Also about Sherlock's defining himself as sociopath- I think he would rather say he was a sociopath than admit he was under-developed socially/ found it difficult to relate to people. To me, it is a facet of his intelligence that the would see 'sociopath' as a a mere category, a human construct in a attempt to define the human mind in a way that can only ever have limited effectiveness. Psychological definitions tend to change all the time, and personally I think a lot of them are more about making people feel safe that the non-typical minds have been 'diagnosed', than that they are definitive or especially helpful. 

 

 

[J.P.]

Oh, Sherlock is wearing that term like a shining armor. It gives others something to stick to, so they don't dig deeper and see what's really there.

[Arcadia]

 

Wow, there's a new one ... Mycroft manipulating Sherlock into shooting Magnussen? Oooo, do we really think he's that .... erm, twisted? If it turns out to be true, I hope John punches his lights out.....

 

The thing I didn't understand about Mycroft in that episode was the way he fobbed off the idea that Magnusseun was a threat to national security.

All I can think is that Mycroft thought he could make use of Magnussen in some way, or control the fallout from his actions. Which, if true, I wonder if Mycroft didn't underestimate CAM just as much as Sherlock did. 

 

This is even less transparent than TRF.

Imagine how we'll feel if they start "explaining" it! I thought I had a pretty good idea what TRF was about when I saw it, but after TEH, I'm not sure WHAT I saw....

[bedelia1984]

Imagine how we'll feel if they start "explaining" it!   I thought I had a pretty good idea what TRF was about when I saw it, but after TEH, I'm not sure WHAT I saw....

 

 

I kind of hope they do somehow explain it, as at the moment it has left me with a very bad feeling that when Sherlock can see what he's done more clearly, he's not going to feel so good about it, or about the results of caring for people. Especially when coupled with the potential for John's storyline to also get very dark. I so like the show when it is funny, I hope we don't lose that next year.

 

All I can think is that Mycroft thought he could make use of Magnussen in some way, or control the fallout from his actions. 

 

 

 I suppose if he had really had a vault, it would have been an amazing find for Mycroft. I won't not-judge Magnussen either. He spent a lot of the episode pretty much goading someone into shooting him in the head, with the way he was carrying on and then his 'it's all up here' (in his head) gloating at the end. And he let a man who could possibly get way with said shooting (with his brother, who they both knew was coming, being a big cheese in the government) right in to his house. What is it with the villains on this show and their death wishes?

[Arcadia]

 

Imagine how we'll feel if they start "explaining" it!   I thought I had a pretty good idea what TRF was about when I saw it, but after TEH, I'm not sure WHAT I saw....

 

I kind of hope they do somehow explain it, as at the moment it has left me with a very bad feeling that when Sherlock can see what he's done more clearly, he's not going to feel so good about it, or about the results of caring for people. Especially when coupled with the potential for John's storyline to also get very dark. I so like the show when it is funny, I hope we don't lose that next year.

For me this is one of those "be careful what you wish for" moments -- I'd like more clarity on HLV too, but based on what Moffat's been saying up to now, I'm terrified that Sherlock's reaction to shooting CAM will be "yippee-kay-yay, I blew him away." Ugh, I really don't want "that" Sherlock. Hopefully more sensitive heads will prevail ..... I'm not worried too much about the humor, though. I don't think Moftiss can help themselves, they have too much fun with it!

 

What is it with the villains on this show and their death wishes?

I hadn't thought about it before, but now that you put it that way ....

[bedelia1984]

I'd like more clarity on HLV too, but based on what Moffat's been saying up to now, I'm terrified that Sherlock's reaction to shooting CAM will be "yippee-kay-yay, I blew him away." Ugh, I really don't want "that" Sherlock. Hopefully more sensitive heads will prevail ..... I'm not worried too much about the humor, though. I don't think Moftiss can help themselves, they have too much fun with it!

 

 

Yikes. Maybe they should just leave this alone. Then, there is also how John will feel about what Sherlock has done. Even if Sherlock seems okay with it (which is not the same as being okay, and I could see his reaction being delayed, as almost all of his emotional reactions are), how will John feel about his part in what Sherlock ended up doing? Especially as Sherlock has this almost child-to-parent relationship to John and Mary (if we forget the time Mary shot him, for a moment).

[J.P.]

Oh, Sherlock is wearing that term like a shining armor. It gives others something to stick to, so they don't dig deeper and see what's really there.

Plus it's also something HE can stick to and not dig deeper...

[J.P.]

 

Then, there is also how John will feel about what Sherlock has done.

Oh, my...

[joanneta1]

To all fellow members: did that self-confessed lying excuse of a Scot EVER say that he viewed Sherlock as being autistic or otherwise in the spectrum? That would negate all the character's brilliance of mind and his forensic skills! Any available sources of information would be deeply appreciated.

[Arcadia]

Negate how? I don't understand. Many  people with autism also have intellectual disabilities, but by no means all of them. Or did you mean something else?
 
Anyway, I honestly can't remember, but if he did, it would probably be back around the first two seasons of the show.
 
Sherlockology has dozens of links to news articles, maybe you can find what you're looking for there?

[joanneta1]

Dear Arcadia, there're people out there in the fan fiction universe, who claim that Mr Moffatt declared that he saw Sherlock as belonging to the autistic spectrum. Otherwise, his instantaneous deductions would not make any sense. If he suffers from sensory overload, then all the years he spent studying all the necessary science to hone his skills would be put down to spectrum capabilities, making him a high-functioning ASD-sufferer instead of the unique forensic genius he is supposed to be! That's how his extraordinary gifts would be negated! Thanks for your suggestion!

[Fantasy Lover]

as someone who is autistic, I'm grateful so many people love him despite his disability. at least he's not like rain man, F*** that movie

[Carol the Dabbler]

as someone who is autistic, I'm grateful so many people love him despite his disability. at least he's not like rain man, f*** that movie

 

I enjoyed Rain Man (but then I'm relatively ignorant regarding autism).  Could you give me a rough idea of why you thought it was a bad movie?  Thanks!

 

[Fantasy Lover]

I enjoyed Rain Man (but then I'm relatively ignorant regarding autism). Could you give me a rough idea of why you thought it was a bad movie? Thanks!

in rain man, Raymond counts cards in a casino. it seems to imply that people who are autistic can make you rich. then, there's the plane bit. Raymond knows which company hasn't lost a plane, I don't. autism is a spectrum, therefore two people with autism aren't alike. but now everyone thinks all people with autism are like that. f*** you Barry Morrow, f*** YOU!!!

[Inge l-w]

Oh, that would be heinous! If Sherlock cannot help but deduce everything and everyone because of a condition, then all his years of hard training of his brilliant mind to become what he is are rendered irrelevant, useless, unimportant at one fell swoop! I do hope Mr Moffat never said that. He knows enough about the original stories to know that both brothers are in genius territory but have carefully honed their respective skills and keep honing them, each in his own way.

[Arcadia]

Dear Arcadia, there're people out there in the fan fiction universe, who claim that Mr Moffatt declared that he saw Sherlock as belonging to the autistic spectrum. Otherwise, his instantaneous deductions would not make any sense. If he suffers from sensory overload, then all the years he spent studying all the necessary science to hone his skills would be put down to spectrum capabilities, making him a high-functioning ASD-sufferer instead of the unique forensic genius he is supposed to be! That's how his extraordinary gifts would be negated! Thanks for your suggestion!

 

Oh, that would be heinous! If Sherlock cannot help but deduce everything and everyone because of a condition, then all his years of hard training of his brilliant mind to become what he is are rendered irrelevant, useless, unimportant at one fell swoop! I do hope Mr Moffat never said that. He knows enough about the original stories to know that both brothers are in genius territory but have carefully honed their respective skills and keep honing them, each in his own way.

Okay, I think I might still be misunderstanding, so before I respond to that point, let me try to make sure I've got it right. Are you two saying that, IF Sherlock's deductive abilities were due to a genetic quirk, and NOT to years of hard study, that means he's not actually a genius?

 

As to ASD ... people have been speculating that Sherlock Holmes must have been autistic (or bi-polar, or schizophrenic, or some other disorder of the year) for decades before little Steven Moffat was even born, so I think there's a good chance that he's speculated on it too. I know Benedict has said that Sherlock acts like he's somewhere on the spectrum. But acting like something doesn't mean you are that thing (as Benedict of all people should know! ) I act like a moron every day, but I actually test out fairly average on an IQ test. :P

 

Benedict's also said ... and I'm pretty sure this was a talking point provided by Moftiss ... that Sherlock's abilities are an "achievable superpower" -- but I disagree. I guess most of us could learn to be more observant, but to take those observations, and put them together to come up with the correct answer -- those breath-taking intuitive leaps -- imho, that's innate, not learned. It's just who he is, bless 'im.

[Arcadia]

@ aurelie (because for some reason the forum software won't let me quote your post!) ...

 

I see your point, but it's really not the scriptwriter's fault if everyone thinks his portrayal is the ONLY true portrayal of autism. It just means that "everyone" has made an assumption based on one example. I've had the good fortune to meet a few people who were autistic, and none of them were like Rain Man. None of them were like each other, either; all different, just like all of us!
 
Having said that, I don't like the movie either! But if I remember correctly, it's more because I don't like Tom Cruise very much, than for any other reason.

[Shadow Dweller]

Innate ability and honed into precision by a lot of hard works. He is a specialist, a scalpel in a world of ordinary knives.

[Arcadia]

Agreed.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Arcadia, I'm saying that if he can't help but be swamped by spectrum overload, then the genius bit falls by the side: he's not one, he just can't help it!

It immediately renders all his years of studying coagulation of the blood, his very thorough chemistry studies, his red-blood cell finding in Study in Scarlet and all his years of amassing information in scrapbooks of the minutest criminal activity in London and abroad, his trick of "reading" people through their characteristics and their clothes null and void! Not to mention all his varied interests in music, opera, palaeography, history and art history.

In Sherlock terms, if he didn't work flipping hard at becoming what he is, "what's the point" of him?

@ShadowDweller: make that a laser cutting implement, and I concur wholeheartedly!

[Arcadia]

Okay .... then I think we must have different definitions of genius. Here's mine, humbly borrowed from the Oxford English Dictionary:
"Genius. 1.  exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability. 2. a person who is exceptionally intelligent or creative, either generally or in some particular respect." (Emphasis mine.)
 
Meaning ... education has nothing to do with genius. You either is one, or you ain't. In your words: you just can't help it! You can hone your intellect to precision, as Shadow says; but if you don't have the natural ability to begin with, you can't acquire it by studying.
 
So by my definition, there's no reason an autistic person can't be a genius ... if they're born with the natural ability to excel at something, they're a genius. The fact that they may also have other traits that set them apart from the rest of us doesn't take that away from them. Those other traits may prevent them from utilizing their genius, but that's a different matter.
 
Anyway, It's not how Sherlock collects information that makes him a genius ... it's what he does with the information once he's got it that sets him apart.
 
All very much IM very HO, of course.

[Shadow Dweller]

If Sherlock was born with preference for intuitive thinking, he will be more adept on making intuitive leap than those who prefer step by step way, but without ability to translate his ideas into real world's context then he would not go anywhere. Here's training play an important part, not only to explain in understandable terms to the 'unwashed masses' but also to connect with fellow scientists who can help to expand his horizon. Training also help to give direction and sharpen his focus.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Tell me about it.

 

My job is to translate what I have in mind to various type of people so they understand, it's not something expressable by words. It's difficult and one method might not work with different people.

If I fail to do that, it's useless and meaningless regardless how terrific the ideas are.

 

But then, I don't understand and know for sure about ASD.

For me, Sherlock is a genius, whatever and whoever he is.

And very human too. More than most people I know. Then again, I have weird understanding of human.