John Watson

[Boton]

I like those theories posited above.  But I guess I've always taken the simpler route and assumed that John was not in the mind palace scene because 1) like J.P. said, including a John voice would weaken the impact of the "John Watson is definitely in danger" line, and 2) John doesn't need to be a continual presence in Sherlock's mind palace because he's the one person Sherlock can converse with freely in real life.  Because of one reason or another, there are reasons that he can't really have a free and open exchange of ideas with Molly, Mycroft, or even Anderson.  But John is always there, so there's no need to conjure up a representation of him.  The only time he did so, in the scene Caya mentioned above, was when John wasn't speaking to him and Sherlock was missing that "voice" from his own problem-solving process.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Boton,

Your theories all seem valid, but the John voice in TEH keeps taunting and jeering, it is not something comfortable or helpful to the task at hand. "jealous" , "you forgot to put your collar up" are not the praise he has been used to hearing from his "friend" and partner, Dr Watson, as he so often presents Dear John to others. Why goad him into irrationality when he is trying to offer Molly the best gift in his power, half a day of solving interesting puzzles? It is a bit Not Good.

[Arcadia]

I always assumed Sherlock was hearing John's voice because he missed his presence, and he heard in his mind the things he expected to hear from John when on a case. John commenting on his vanity had become a reassuring constant in his life!

[Boton]

Dear Boton,

Your theories all seem valid, but the John voice in TEH keeps taunting and jeering, it is not something comfortable or helpful to the task at hand. "jealous" , "you forgot to put your collar up" are not the praise he has been used to hearing from his "friend" and partner, Dr Watson, as he so often presents Dear John to others. Why goad him into irrationality when he is trying to offer Molly the best gift in his power, half a day of solving interesting puzzles? It is a bit Not Good.

 

 

I always assumed Sherlock was hearing John's voice because he missed his presence, and he heard in his mind the things he expected to hear from John when on a case. John commenting on his vanity had become a reassuring constant in his life!

 

Yeah, what Arcadia said.  I assume that part of Sherlock's process now includes John's goading, nagging, and teasing.  He's grown dependent on having John give him a hard time while he's working, and he's learned to let it help keep him on task.  In a way, this makes John the opposite of ACD Watson, who typically was more unalloyed in his praise.  This John has established that he'll express when he's amazed at something Sherlock says or does, but he'll also not hesitate to tell him when he's being a show-off.  

 

I definitely agree that Sherlock wanted to give Molly a day of his very best.  But he also discovered that she doesn't really fit in with how he's learned to work with a partner.  Maybe she could do, if they tried again or got used to each other, but I think Sherlock learned just how "John-shaped" the hole in his processes was.

[Arcadia]

I definitely agree that Sherlock wanted to give Molly a day of his very best.  But he also discovered that she doesn't really fit in with how he's learned to work with a partner.  Maybe she could do, if they tried again or got used to each other, but I think Sherlock learned just how "John-shaped" the hole in his processes was.

I remember thinking, back when Sherlock first asked Molly out (as I like to call it )-- "Oh no, Mayday Mayday Mayday, this is never going to work!" But by the time they left the Train Guy, I was thinking, "Huh, maybe this could work after all." Then they go and reveal Molly's engaged. MOFTISSSSSS!!!!! :D

[Van Buren Supernova]

I believe John’s character is much more developed in this version. He is not only a sidekick, but someone that Sherlock actually needs and cares about.

 

While Sherlock was arguably actually fine on his own before they met, he might be very close to the border of the angel side, leaning dangerously.

John, on the other hand, was a mess. He was tortured and unhappy with unbearable nothingness in his life. He wasn’t even looked happy meeting his old friend, Mike Stamford. Nothing to cherish, nothing to look forward to, with psychosomatic limp, he must be in psychological pain.

 

Meeting Sherlock, all of sudden, in a day, he encountered a lot of ‘interesting’ things that gives meaning and excitement to his life again. It’s not everyday you run around London (thinking that you would never run again), meeting Holmes brothers (the strangest and most fascinating brothers that ever exists)  and shooting someone, and bonus point (got a dinner invitation from Sherlock. Don’t let Irene Adler and Molly know)

 

When he said, ”I owe you so much,” on Sherlock’s grave stone, it’s really true imho. John Watson might end up in some horrible places had he never meet Sherlock.

 

In return, John is probably Sherlock number one admirer. He is sincerely very fascinated with Sherlock to put up with everything he throws at him, frustrated, speechless yet finds it so endearing to be with him. I believe Sherlock is a hero in his eyes, although in TGG he was disappointed that Sherlock doesn’t share his view, it haven’t changed, he was head over heels when Sherlock cracked Supernova case.

 

Having said that, it’s a wonder why Sherlock is not John’s pressure point.

I believe it is.

Magnussen didn’t think so, maybe because he had not done collecting information. There are many questions in my mind on how he collected knowledge about other people’s various pressure points (Redbeard is the one I’m most skeptical about), I believe for Sherlock being John’s pressure point is just an overlook or haven’t been tested/he didn’t feel the need to found out.

 

However while I’m very sure about it in Series 1 and 2, Series 3 introduced a lot of different dynamics that can either challenge or strengthen this.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Dunno where to put this, but I've just had a thought -- We've all noticed that there's no John construct in Sherlock's mind palace the way there's Mycroft and Molly and Anderson, right? John only appears when Sherlock's aware of him, but there's no separate John-like entity in the mind palace.

 

I think I know why.

 

 

 

If you are talking about the mind palace in His Last Vow, for me I believe he doesn't have John because at that very moment, John is the last person he wants to tell/to be involved in his survival. Because he was shot by Mary, Mrs. Watson.

[Arcadia]

I believe John’s character is much more developed in this version. He is not only a sidekick, but someone that Sherlock actually needs and cares about.

I remember thinking, when I first saw Season I, that John was so important to the show that it was almost as if he were the main character. I thought that was a lovely re-interpretation. The focus has changed a lot since then, but Sherlock would still be lost without his blogger.

 

.... Having said that, it’s a wonder why Sherlock is not John’s pressure point.

I believe it is.

Magnussen didn’t think so, maybe because he had not done collecting information. There are many questions in my mind on how he collected knowledge about other people’s various pressure points (Redbeard is the one I’m most skeptical about), I believe for Sherlock being John’s pressure point is just an overlook or haven’t been tested/he didn’t feel the need to found out.

 

However while I’m very sure about it in Series 1 and 2, Series 3 introduced a lot of different dynamics that can either challenge or strengthen this.

Maybe Sherlock isn't John's pressure point because John is not the way to get to Mycroft? What I mean is, Mycroft was CAM's ultimate goal, right? So if Sherlock were John's pressure point, it wouldn't do CAM any good, because John is not Mycroft's pressure point.

 

Ultimate goal: control Mycroft.

Mycroft's pressure point: his junkie little brother Sherlock

Sherlock's pressure point: John (among other things )

John's pressure point: Mary

Mary's pressure point: her past

 

Actually, I agree that Sherlock is a pressure point for John, too, but in this case that wasn't any use to CAM. {?)

 

Just a thought! Not even sure it makes sense at this point (it's awfully early in the morning where I am )

[Shadow Dweller]

Go to sleep, Arcadia. I can see the darkened bags under your eyes even from here :p

[Arcadia]

Can't, it's time to get up and face the day! Just as soon as I get off this forum, of course. :D

[T.o.b.y]

 

.... Having said that, it’s a wonder why Sherlock is not John’s pressure point.

I believe it is.

Magnussen didn’t think so, maybe because he had not done collecting information. There are many questions in my mind on how he collected knowledge about other people’s various pressure points (Redbeard is the one I’m most skeptical about), I believe for Sherlock being John’s pressure point is just an overlook or haven’t been tested/he didn’t feel the need to found out.

 

However while I’m very sure about it in Series 1 and 2, Series 3 introduced a lot of different dynamics that can either challenge or strengthen this.

Maybe Sherlock isn't John's pressure point because John is not the way to get to Mycroft? What I mean is, Mycroft was CAM's ultimate goal, right? So if Sherlock were John's pressure point, it wouldn't do CAM any good, because John is not Mycroft's pressure point.

 

Ultimate goal: control Mycroft.

Mycroft's pressure point: his junkie little brother Sherlock

Sherlock's pressure point: John (among other things )

John's pressure point: Mary

Mary's pressure point: her past

 

Actually, I agree that Sherlock is a pressure point for John, too, but in this case that wasn't any use to CAM. {?)

 

Just a thought! Not even sure it makes sense at this point (it's awfully early in the morning where I am )

 

 

Arcadia, those are really good points, there's just one catch: Magnussen seemed to file away all pressure points he noticed for everybody he met. I mean, why would he be interested in how much in debt Mrs Hudson is or that she uses MJ? He explicitly labeled her "unimportant", yet he had a mental file on her all the same.

 

When he was "scanning" the boys, he listed all their pressure points, including some stuff that sure wouldn't help him get at Mycroft either, and it still did not say "Sherlock Holmes" on John's list.

 

Which isn't to say it's not true. Moriarty knew better, remember? "You've shown your hand there, Dr Watson".

 

I think Magnussen doesn't exactly see it that way because of how the Holmes / Watson dynamic works (and I mean that in a non-slash way). In the business of solving crimes, Sherlock is sort of John's boss, and you don't usually think of the commanding officer as a pressure point for the foot soldier. Also, he got to know the men at a time when John was already away and married and doing his best to make it quite clear that he doesn't need Sherlock Bloody Bastard Holmes (see quotes like "yeah, I'll text you if I'm available").

 

If a villain ever wants to really torture John, he'll make him choose between Sherlock and Mary. I sincerely hope the story never, ever goes there because it would be so awfully tasteless and stale and over-the-top melodramatic, and I am pretty confident Moffat, Gatiss and Co know better. But in theory, it would be the worst thing you could do to him, if you ask me.

 

Hmmmm... What do you all think John would do? If a villain did that, I mean? Whom would he save if he could only save one?

 

My answer is he'd save Mary. Seriously, I think so. Because he'd probably assume Sherlock the Superhuman will find his own way out anyway...

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

I remember thinking, when I first saw Season I, that John was so important to the show that it was almost as if he were the main character. I thought that was a lovely re-interpretation. The focus has changed a lot since then, but Sherlock would still be lost without his blogger.

 

Precisely, on both points.

Sherlock loves John's blog, he just tries to disguise it with insults.

He lurks. Lurkers are lovers, like most members here before we decided to join.

 

 

Maybe Sherlock isn't John's pressure point because John is not the way to get to Mycroft? What I mean is, Mycroft was CAM's ultimate goal, right? So if Sherlock were John's pressure point, it wouldn't do CAM any good, because John is not Mycroft's pressure point.

 

Ultimate goal: control Mycroft.

Mycroft's pressure point: his junkie little brother Sherlock

Sherlock's pressure point: John (among other things )

John's pressure point: Mary

Mary's pressure point: her past

 

Actually, I agree that Sherlock is a pressure point for John, too, but in this case that wasn't any use to CAM. {?)

 

Just a thought! Not even sure it makes sense at this point (it's awfully early in the morning where I am )

My thought exactly, it would be sad if Sherlock is not John's pressure point.

 

Your post makes a lot of sense to me, or it's just a beginning of evening here, maybe I'm too tired as well.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I think Magnussen doesn't exactly see it that way because of how the Holmes / Watson dynamic works (and I mean that in a non-slash way). In the business of solving crimes, Sherlock is sort of John's boss, and you don't usually think of the commanding officer as a pressure point for the foot soldier. Also, he got to know the men at a time when John was already away and married and doing his best to make it quite clear that he doesn't need Sherlock Bloody Bastard Holmes (see quotes like "yeah, I'll text you if I'm available").

I think it's fair to assume that Magnussen knowledge of Sherlock and John's relationship is after Sherlock came back from death, and John was about to get married.

Although for Magnussen, it might be bit careless for him to overlook why John chose Sherlock as best man (possible answer he didn't know, but he should be observing the boys closely since TEH and it's too important to miss or to store in his mind palace).

However, since I don't want him to pick my last olive and wash his fingers on my drink, I'd give him the benefit of doubt that it was a calculated carelessness.

 

For the rank, I might be wrong, but I believe that it occurs more often the other way around.

A commanding officer might be more of the pressure point for the foot soldier; duty, respect, fear, stressful relation, pressure. It's arguably more often for foot soldiers to make sacrifice for commanding officer than vice versa.

 

If a villain ever wants to really torture John, he'll make him choose between Sherlock and Mary. I sincerely hope the story never, ever goes there because it would be so awfully tasteless and stale and over-the-top melodramatic, and I am pretty confident Moffat, Gatiss and Co know better. But in theory, it would be the worst thing you could do to him, if you ask me.

 

Hmmmm... What do you all think John would do? If a villain did that, I mean? Whom would he save if he could only save one?

 

My answer is he'd save Mary. Seriously, I think so. Because he'd probably assume Sherlock the Superhuman will find his own way out anyway...

I do hope losing Sherlock once, and almost twice on the hand of Mary would make John chooses to save Mary but die with Sherlock.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I could totally see John choosing Mary because he thought Sherlock could get out of it on his own. Then there's always the possibility of Mycroft stepping in to save Sherlock (which I realize is quite trite and over used).

[Boton]

 

 

 

 

 

I think Magnussen doesn't exactly see it that way because of how the Holmes / Watson dynamic works (and I mean that in a non-slash way). In the business of solving crimes, Sherlock is sort of John's boss, and you don't usually think of the commanding officer as a pressure point for the foot soldier. Also, he got to know the men at a time when John was already away and married and doing his best to make it quite clear that he doesn't need Sherlock Bloody Bastard Holmes (see quotes like "yeah, I'll text you if I'm available").

 

If a villain ever wants to really torture John, he'll make him choose between Sherlock and Mary. I sincerely hope the story never, ever goes there because it would be so awfully tasteless and stale and over-the-top melodramatic, and I am pretty confident Moffat, Gatiss and Co know better. But in theory, it would be the worst thing you could do to him, if you ask me.

 

Hmmmm... What do you all think John would do? If a villain did that, I mean? Whom would he save if he could only save one?

 

My answer is he'd save Mary. Seriously, I think so. Because he'd probably assume Sherlock the Superhuman will find his own way out anyway...

 

 

I agree.  I think there might be some nuance here, too, that a pressure point is not necessarily the thing that's most important to you but the thing that you will do anything to "protect," whether that's protecting a person or protecting knowledge from getting out.  In that sense, I'm not sure that John, as he's portrayed in the show, would think of Sherlock as a pressure point by S3, because I don't think he cares if anyone knows that they are a bonded team (non-slash), and he doesn't feel like he has to physically protect Sherlock from anyone but himself.  

 

Who would John choose to save?  It's interesting, because Sherlock and Mary are two of a kind in many ways, especially in skill and steeliness.  But I think John would probably save Mary, as you say, because he figures Sherlock would be able to save himself.  The spousal relationship often carries a bit of protectiveness with it, and John might find it hard to not let that rule his decision-making abilities, even if Mary is perfectly capable of saving herself.  

 

(Actually, I truthfully think Mary would be more capable of saving herself, especially if you are talking about a situation in which she and Sherlock both are armed.  Mary can shoot through the near-center of a coin; Sherlock can get close to outlining a smilie face.  Just based on that, Mary is the better shot.)

[Arcadia]

Yipe, I don't even want to think about John having to choose between Sherlock or Mary. Either choice would break my heart. Hm. I think John would try to sacrifice himself instead ... or either Mary or Sherlock would. But if absolutely forced ... I guess Mary, for the sake of their child. But then I think he'd  kill himself.

[sittything]

Well, this is depressing....

 

[Arcadia]

Yes, I thought so too. Hey, who started this? :D

[T.o.b.y]

 

(Actually, I truthfully think Mary would be more capable of saving herself, especially if you are talking about a situation in which she and Sherlock both are armed.  Mary can shoot through the near-center of a coin; Sherlock can get close to outlining a smilie face.  Just based on that, Mary is the better shot.)

 

:lol: I think so too, actually. I think John underestimates his wife and overestimates Sherlock. Which means my most likely scenario would be pretty tragic.

 

Yes, I thought so too. Hey, who started this? :D

 

Me... Mrs Morbid.

If they ever wrote anything like this into the script, I would probably call the BBC and complain. It would be so bad. This is Sherlock, not Batman (though I must admit I like the idea of Moriarty doing a Joker trick on John, who rushes to rescue his wife, finds Sherlock instead and yells "where's Mary?" at him). I just thought it was a nice fiendish little mental puzzle.

 

But lets move on then, shall we. John. Hmmmm, John... Okay, this should be less depressing: What so you all think John will be like as a father?

 

Me, I predict he'll be one of the best dads ever and not half as emotionally constipated with his little girl as he seems to be around grown-up people.

[sittything]

Mofftiss, if you're here...

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Triple post

 

Any time that you accidentally post more than one copy of the same thing, you can always hide the extra(s) by clicking the Hide button (to the left of the Quote buttons).  The advantage of Hide over Delete (which is not available to regular members anyhow) is that if you accidentally hide the wrong thing, any staff member can retrieve it for you.

 

Yipe, I don't even want to think about John having to choose between Sherlock or Mary. Either choice would break my heart. Hm. I think John would try to sacrifice himself instead ... or either Mary or Sherlock would. But if absolutely forced ... I guess Mary, for the sake of their child. But then I think he'd  kill himself.

 

And what the hell good would that last part do for anybody?  :P  Grand dramatic gesture and all, but I give John more credit than that for common sense.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

 

 What so you all think John will be like as a father?

Me, I predict he'll be one of the best dads ever and not half as emotionally constipated with his little girl as he seems to be around grown-up people.

 

 

I think he'll be good as well.  Might have the usual new dad nerves and the likes at first. And he'll likely do everything in his power to keep Sherlock at a safe distance for the baby's safety.

[J.P.]

I don't know. If Sherlock would be as serious about John's baby as he was about his wedding, he could turn into the best educated nanny in the history. At least when it comes to the technical competence. But we have explored this topic already :P

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I don't know. If Sherlock would be as serious about John's baby as he was about his wedding, he could turn into the best educated nanny in the history. At least when it comes to the technical competence. But we have explored this topic already :P

 

Yes we have.  There is always the science experiment side of Sherlock that could come showing its head after the baby is born.  Before that point I expect him a bit like he was when helping John & Mary plan for the wedding.

[Experimental]

If a villain ever wants to really torture John, he'll make him choose between Sherlock and Mary. I sincerely hope the story never, ever goes there because it would be so awfully tasteless and stale and over-the-top melodramatic, and I am pretty confident Moffat, Gatiss and Co know better. But in theory, it would be the worst thing you could do to him, if you ask me.

 

Ahaha as it turns out I actually wrote a tasteless, stale, over-the-top melodramatic fanfiction about that, which basically consisted of John tearing himself apart, and Sherlock calmly, instructively telling him to save Mary and how best to do it [while Sherlock was dying, I might add] The thing is, if Mary is pregnant, that's also an element to consider. It's very difficult for the average human being to let their spouse and unborn child die, I'm just sayin'.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Experimental
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