Metacommunication

[T.o.b.y]

Yep! What we are obsessing about is a series of a modernised version created by two self-confessed fanboys, ergo, NOT the real thing, at all, a pastiche of the real McCoy, which is fun to watch, but definitely candy floss in seriousness of handling material and content!

 

If this is your opinion, Inge, that's fine, but may I request you word it as such? I get that you don't like BBC's Sherlock as well as other Sherlock Holmes adaptations or the original books, but for me (and, I think, many other people who post here) it's really my favorite TV series ever. Probably even my favorite thing to watch. I don't think it's "candy floss" at all, in fact, I think it's brilliantly done and a very high quality production in many ways. When you insist on the show's inferiority in such an absolute manner, you're basically telling me (and other people who think like me) that we have awful taste. It can sound a bit insulting.

 

Again: you are perfectly entitled to your own opinion and your own taste and to talking about it. All I'm asking is that you make clear it is just your opinion and that there's room for others.

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear TOBY, of course it's my personal opinion! Who else's could it be? I come here for the great sense of belonging to a group of sane fans, I have said so repeatedly! Who has been helping SherlockedCamper bring up Baby Watson, in a manner of speaking? However, if you go to ShadowDweller's numerous quizzes, you'll see that I always end up being BC as Sherlock; namely, forthright, abrasive, rubbing people the wrong way. And I couldn't abide THIS Dr Watson's "a bit not good", so there you have it!

Turnabout: you have repeatedly proclaimed that you avoided watching any Sherlock Holmes adaptations before this one, just in case they ruined your perfect imagery from the stories: I have watched anything Sherlock-connected all my life, so, purely as a viewing critic, whose opinion should count more? The introverted bookworm's (I'm that, too, by the way,) or the one's who has been there, watched that? In all fairness, no insult intended!

Define high-quality: they must take the fandom as a collection of numskulls if what Dr Watson did at the end of TRF didn't bring him before a Magistrate's court, at least, and I have repeatedly railed about Magnussen's security detail lapse in not checking the intrepid duo at Appledore for any kind of offensive weapon, let alone a barely hidden firearm. Definitely sloppy thinking, wouldn't you agree?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Dear TOBY, of course it's my personal opinion! Who else's could it be? <snip>

Turnabout: you have repeatedly proclaimed that you avoided watching any Sherlock Holmes adaptations before this one, just in case they ruined your perfect imagery from the stories: I have watched anything Sherlock-connected all my life, so, purely as a viewing critic, whose opinion should count more?

 

Inge, it's not a matter of whose opinion counts, because opinions are not facts.  Everybody has an opinion, and they all count (at least to the individuals who have them).

 

I believe what T.o.b.y meant was that when you give your opinion on internet forums, it's generally considered appropriate to label it as such.  This is such a common practice that there are even abbreviations for the purpose, such as IMHO ("in my humble opinion"), though it's even better to say something in plain English, such as "I think" or "in my view."  Otherwise, a person could inadvertently come across sounding as though they were confusing their personal opinion with actual fact.

 

We all get carried away now and then and forget to do it, but acknowledging that we're merely stating our personal opinion is a point of internet etiquette.

[Inge l-w]

Thank the forum for the edit button!

I do humbly grovel for my lack of netiquette and for offending the fragile sensibilities of any particularly sensitive fellow members! Previous post now sports the appropriate abbreviation, so that the matter can be laid to rest and we can go on arguing about the possible content from the meagre information provided by the two trailers and by Mr Moffat's teasing: "Moriarty is dead, or is he?" as he announced at the convention on 24 October.

(Dear Carol, you meant well, for which I am doubly thankful, as will become evident in any future posts!)

[Boswell]

<Mods, would you kindly delete this post if it is irrelevant and/or damaging to the forum>

 

Inge, despite your express wish to have this matter laid to rest, I couldn't resist wading in to say this somehow reminds me of Sherlock's rant from Reichenbach "God forbid the star witness should come across as intelligent." ;)

 

Carol, I personally believe that if we were to decorate every post with redundant 'IMHO's (btw i always thought the H there stood for 'honest', rather than 'humble'... what may we deduce about me from that? :D) and apologies-in-advance and generally stand on ceremony all the time, then this could soon become like any of the other, boring, forums out there - and I don't just mean Sherlock related ones - which are cluttered with perceived/actual insults, complaints, and apologies, sidelining any actual content.

The first thing that had struck me about our forum is the unapologetic frankness and genuine camaraderie that makes it feel like a close-knit group and allowed me the comfort I needed to say what I thought about the show. I believe that Inge's post, and the response to it, are examples of the kind of unadulterated "mind-dump" stuff that makes this forum interesting, makes it a place worth coming back to day after day as a patch for the drug withdrawal we all experience in Sherlock's absence. 

 

While most of us need a nudge now and then to keep us civil while being frank, let's not get bogged down by niceties and political correctness here - God knows we have more than enough of that to deal with out in the real world. 

And yes that is my own honest opinion, which everyone here is in turn entitled to criticise. I might end up sulking on the sofa, but what the hell! :D

 

[Shadow Dweller]

Manner is what greased social interaction, Boswell. Without it then a gathering of people will quickly degenerate into chaos and that's not enjoyable. Frankness is welcome but it is not a permission to disrespect other people's right for civilized exchange of ideas. Phrase your opinion in the manner that suit a place where you are then when other participants accept and take it as something worth to be discussed, they also accept you as one of them.

 

Note: I detect a passive-aggressive post today. Not necessarily yours but please, don't use that kind of thing here if you want to be respected by others. Don't play stab other people on their back and expect no one will notice such cowardly tactic.

[Arcadia]

In lieu of Carol, you get me, I'm afraid. I think you both have good points, Boswell and SD, and I don't actually see any conflict between your points of view, or between yours and what Carol said. We certainly encourage both humble AND honest opinions ... this would be a pretty boring place if we didn't ... but we also encourage expressing them in a way that doesn't demean or diminish the opinions of others.
 
I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this forum intentionally insult another member, for example. (Except in jest.) But I have seen members who have felt they've been insulted. Language is a subtle and slippery thing, it can turn suddenly and say something you didn't intend. Often it's a matter of tone: there is a world of difference, for example, between saying "You're wrong" and "I think you're wrong". Obviously those are both the writer's opinion; how could they be anything else? But the first one sounds mean and high-handed, and the second one ... doesn't.
 
All I'm saying is, I think it's possible to honestly express your ideas and at the same time keep your audience in mind. You can walk into a party for frogs disguised as a garter snake; but it would pretty much ruin the party, and eventually the snake would be the only one left. Better, it seems to me, to go as another frog, and let the party continue.
 
And no no no, I am NOT implying that anyone here is a snake!!! :D I'd search for another analogy but I have to go to work (dratted work.) Your post is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, Boswell; you had your say, but you didn't trash the room on your way in or out. Well done. And now I'm mixing metaphors. I really have to go. IMHO, of course. :P

[T.o.b.y]

I decided to create a new thread for this discussion, because I think it's good to talk about these things, but wanted to clear up the Christmas Special thread a bit in case anyone came there looking for, you know, posts related to said special.

 

I haven't got much to add to Arcadia's comment, but since I am afraid I was the one who brought the matter up originally, I feel kind of obligated to participate in it's further discussion.

 

I would really like this forum to be a place where everybody is comfortable, the blunt and the polite, the shy and the bold, the people with fragile sensibilities and those with thicker skins. That might require a few compromises all round, but it's worked out pretty well so far, so I'm confident we'll manage just as well in the future.

[Arcadia]

I decided to create a new thread for this discussion, because I think it's good to talk about these things, but wanted to clear up the Christmas Special thread a bit in case anyone came there looking for, you know, posts related to said special.

 

What a concept!  :d

 

Seriously, good idea, Toby.

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear fellow members, netiquette isn't such a burden as real-life etiquette, especially when one has to deal with people: fragile egos and easily-bruised personalities are common currency where I work, so why shouldn't it be on a public forum?

I declare forthwith, that IMHO stands for In My Honest Opinion in all future posts. If TOBY finds my views perfectly abhorrent, I am still allowed to express them, (shades of M. Arouet, better known as Voltaire), while any easily-offended fellow member can respond in a logical, thorough manner, not invoking sentiment but well-grounded, factual objections to my views. And from what I have seen so far of the trailers, the Special is IMHO a candy-floss, soufflé-light variation on the three ACD Gothic stories with a straw Holmes somewhere in there. The moment this version of Dr Watson said :You are Sherlock Holmes, wear the b***** hat, shades of Michael Caine flitted across my mind's eye.

And may I reiterate that as a viewing critic, purely amateur, of course, (no such luck as getting paid for watching the seventh art's productions), the one who has watched everything available in a particular genre should be considered more knowledgeable than the one who has watched only one version, albeit repeatedly?

[sittything]

It seems I've missed some stuff.

[Carol the Dabbler]

[...] I declare forthwith, that IMHO stands for In My Honest Opinion in all future posts.

We'll be sure to bear that in mind!  :D  (I see, thanks to Google, that it can also mean "Is My Hearing-aid On?" -- but I doubt that will cause any confusion.)

 

If TOBY finds my views perfectly abhorrent, I am still allowed to express them [....]

Of course.  Anybody is allowed to express any Honest (or Humble) Opinion whatsoever (well, short of insults and insinuations, which are against forum rules).

 

And may I reiterate that as a viewing critic, purely amateur, of course, (no such luck as getting paid for watching the seventh art's productions), the one who has watched everything available in a particular genre should be considered more knowledgeable than the one who has watched only one version, albeit repeatedly?

It sounds to me like you're describing the difference between a specialist and a generalist, in which case they may each be equally knowledgeable, but in different ways.  For example, even though a general practitioner presumably knows a good bit more about most medical areas than a brain surgeon does, the brain surgeon had damn well better know far more about brain surgery -- which is why the GP would defer to the surgeon in that one area.

 

That said, even a rank newbie can have interesting insights.  A friend who has never read Conan Doyle and had never seen Sherlock before watched an episode at our house and pointed out several things that I had never noticed.  (Maybe those dozens of viewings had made me too familiar with the show.  )

 

We may feel quite free to deny one another's fact-oriented statements (e.g., the earth goes around the sun) because (as you mentioned earlier) we can politely back up our own statements with evidence, while remaining open to the other person's counter-evidence.  But one can neither prove nor disprove an opinion, because they're personal.

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Apparently I miss something too.

 

Anyway, I am a BBC Sherlock watcher, only, I don't have time yet to check the other works, beside no time, I haven't had desire to. I also don't follow any news, publications, even the DVD I bought just two months ago still left unplayed, so I don't know about the extra or commentary as well.

Which is, Inge, make me at the lowest tier in opinion quality, by your way of evaluation. Well, that is your opinion. I don't have all the king's horse to make you think otherwise.

 

But, same, you don't have king's horse to make me think otherwise,I also love horses and quite an animal whisperer, told by unreliable sources I don't require you to believe. (I might be able to convince them to be friendly with me just in case ). Because I disagree with your logic, that because you watch more, you observe more, your opinion is more valid. You can say that if I go to Other Sherlock adaptation subforum and talking without knowing anything. But in BBC Sherlock, Is My Hearing-aid On, it's fair game.

 

I value yours or other's opinion higher, if you convince me, not because you say you watch more.

 

Back qualifications don't really mean much to me as I learn in real life, at least I'm trained to appreciate and analyze what I see more than 'paper' qualification. Don't just trust qualifications appear in the resume or confession when you do interview. It's just a piece of paper acknowledged by someone who wants to impress you. Look at them and see if the actual person impress you, or technically, call those reference number, but, number are manipulatable too.

 

But again, that's my opinion. You see how different we view things. If you just pointing out your opinion should have higher ground just because you watch more, nah sorry I don't buy that logic. If you think what I say across the forum ridiculous, or wrong, please, call me out, counter me, debate with me, convince me with logic and reasons, I enjoy that. That I appreciate.

 

Anyway I like the diversity of forum with different personalities, I actually find it's interesting about how you view, convinced and unbudged, with certain way of thinking, just because.

 

However, I often wonder, to be honest, in a forum that is clearly dedicated to specific version, is it not tiring to be a purist of a work that had been adapted, hmm, maybe, hundreds of version? (But what do I know, I only watch one?)

[Arcadia]

At the risk of making this look like a Facebook page, I hereby offer up a little food for thought:

 

 

Alas, I often find myself lacking in the empathy department. I'm not proud of that. Working on it, maybe someday ....

[Van Buren Supernova]

Whuattt..if you are lacking in empathy department, then what am I? ..I am..I am....King of England..!?

Come on now, of all things you might be lacking (I don't know btw ), empathy is not one of them, don't talk rubbish XD. That's my opinion. He he.

[Boswell]

At the risk of making this look like a Facebook page, I hereby offer up a little food for thought:

 

 

Alas, I often find myself lacking in the empathy department. I'm not proud of that. Working on it, maybe someday ....

Yeah, but that's just Bill's opinion, isn't it? ;) :D

[Arcadia]

Touché, Boswell!!  That's what I get for attempting to be profound! :D
 

Whuattt..if you are lacking in empathy department, then what am I? ..I am..I am....King of England..!?

ARE you the King of England? That could explain quite a lot, actually .... :P
 
I have some empathy for certain people, but I know others who are far better at it than I.  I aspire to be more like them someday ... (I'm told it's good to have aspirations.... )

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yeah, but that's just Bill's opinion, isn't it? ;) :D

, :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

ARE you the King of England? That could explain quite a lot, actually .... :P

That I only exist when Sherlock is drunk? :lol2:

 

I have some empathy for certain people, but I know others who are far better at it than I.  I aspire to be more like them someday ... (I'm told it's good to have aspirations.... )

Okay got it. Let me aspire to be as empathetic as you first. (People told me I'm not ambitious enough anyway XD)

[Arcadia]

 

ARE you the King of England? That could explain quite a lot, actually .... :P

That I only exist when Sherlock is drunk? :lol2:

 

I was thinking more that it explained why I feel like I'm living in Wonderland half the time, but I like your explanation better, so yeah, let's go with that. :D

[Inge l-w]

Well, In My Honest Opinion, creating a mountain out of a molehill is definitely fun to read, especially those views couched in a generic form of international English

What's the whole point of this exercise in futility, In My Honest Opinion, when we are all counting down days?

After it airs, we can reconvene, foregather and analyse the Special to our heart's content!

Whereupon, any weaknesses and strengths will be put under the microscope, analysed and evaluated.

[T.o.b.y]

Taking this here because I like the question, but didn't want to hijack the BC news thread:

 

Why are so many people down on being politically correct? I for one am glad certain words have been expunged from polite society. That's all being "PC" is -- being polite. I don't get it.

 

I have a few ideas about this.

 

Political correctness doesn't necessarily have anything to do with real respect for any group of people or consideration of anybody's feelings. It's just an ever-changing social convention that can very well be used to mask intolerant attitudes rather than to combat them. It's a case of fighting the symptoms instead of curing the disease. At its worst, it lets people believe their racist / sexist / homophobic ideas are just fine and dandy as long as they avoid certain words when talking about them and use others instead.

 

Because it has this fake taste to it, political correctness is seldom taken entirely seriously. It's often carried to ridiculous extremes and lends itself to creative exploration (like coming up with terms such as "vertically challenged" for "short"). Or people get annoyed and complain they are being forbidden to "speak their mind".

 

I don't think being PC is the same as being polite. Real politeness is how we acknowledge that everybody deserves to be treated with respect and human decency, no matter how little we might like them or agree with their views. Political correctness is just a prim blouse you can throw over your tank top so that your mom will let you out of the house.

[sittything]

I demand that I be referred to as space-efficient, not vertically challenged.  I'm not challenged;  I'm efficient!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I demand that I be referred to as space-efficient, not vertically challenged.  I'm not challenged;  I'm efficient!

 

Oh!  Can I be horizontally space-efficient, instead of scrawny?  I take up less room than average on the bench!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I'm definitely not space efficient. Although I'm definitely not all that large either.

[Van Buren Supernova]

One of my many weakness is overestimating that everyone can be connected through logic and reasons. Not everyone is wired at the same frequency apparently, or perhaps if I try to polish my poor English... oh wait, new mountain in town to climb..! Off I pop.

 

Can I also demand to be referred as 'Brain-efficient' than gramatically-challenged? I prefer to fill my brain with so many things, to jam any practical knowledge that can help me go through with life, having fun and being adventurous. I am not going to Buckingham Palace, use English daily or earn a living from that. A couple of messy foreign languages are enough for me, I am happy to just able to communicate ala The Terminal's Viktor Navorski can I have a bite to eat? Eat to bite?

 

Political correctness is just a prim blouse you can throw over your tank top so that your mom will let you out of the house.

Very fitting analogy.

It's very tiring to wear the prim blouse though. More often than not I am caught without that and get into trouble I couldn't fix. Because fixing PC trouble needs more PC..! Luckily in constant situation like work, people learn to get used to you. So I can actually get away more and more with tank top.