Rooftop scene - how is Moriarty persuaded so quickly?

[LemonCheesecake]

And with only a few flowery lines from Sherlock? So vague, no threats. I don't see how he could actually have made Moriarty do anything - Moriarty had the gun after all! What could Sherlock have threatened him with? And we saw that Moriarty held up well to torture, so the threat of a beating wasn't the final straw.

 

Apologies if this has been discussed to death, I'm new and still looking around, but I was rewatching this scene, and the only way it makes any sense to me is if there are things they both knew that we were not party to, and which will be revealed in the next season.

 

The only thing that makes sense to me, if it was all just as it was and nothing more, is that Moriarty was so unhinged that Sherlock could take advantage of that, and use his volatility and the fact that he was so 'changeable' to agitate him into making a fatal mistake. But again, it just seems... not enough. This was a man who had his fingers in many impressive criminal pies, we saw throughout season 1 and 2 the kind of people he was dealing with - 'criminal web with a thousand threads and he knows exactly how each of them dances'. It does make me think that the two Moriarty's theory is possible - one logical mastermind, and one 'not wound too tight' showman - to be sacrificed when needed?

[Arcadia]

And with only a few flowery lines from Sherlock? So vague, no threats. I don't see how he could actually have made Moriarty do anything - Moriarty had the gun after all! What could Sherlock have threatened him with? And we saw that Moriarty held up well to torture, so the threat of a beating wasn't the final straw.

 

Apologies if this has been discussed to death, I'm new and still looking around, but I was rewatching this scene, and the only way it makes any sense to me is if there are things they both knew that we were not party to, and which will be revealed in the next season.

 

The only thing that makes sense to me, if it was all just as it was and nothing more, is that Moriarty was so unhinged that Sherlock could take advantage of that, and use his volatility and the fact that he was so 'changeable' to agitate him into making a fatal mistake. But again, it just seems... not enough. This was a man who had his fingers in many impressive criminal pies, we saw throughout season 1 and 2 the kind of people he was dealing with - 'criminal web with a thousand threads and he knows exactly how each of them dances'. It does make me think that the two Moriarty's theory is possible - one logical mastermind, and one 'not wound too tight' showman - to be sacrificed when needed?

 

Hi there, and good question!

 

Speaking only for myself ... in scenes like that, I think I always allow a little latitude for dramatic purposes .... things don't happen in dramatic time at the same speed they would in real time, for example. And two geniuses who seem to think they are the mirror of one another understand each other without talking. Stuff like that.

 

I think what we are supposed to believe is that they understood each other very, very well ... so much so that when Moriarty looked into Sherlock's eyes, he saw whatever he needed to see to make him believe that Sherlock would defeat him in the end. In real life this would involve a lot more shouting or talking or bullying, of course, but in the magical world of Sherlock, they can practically read each other's minds.

 

So what did Moriarty see? I think it was remorselessness ... Sherlock convinced him he was a cold, heartless, rational machine, capable of doing anything to get what he wanted. I also think Sherlock is a pretty good actor, because nothing he has ever said or done in the show has convinced ME that he is, in fact, that remorseless. (Although I do think when the show began that he would like to have been.) But whether it's the actor's own decency shining through, or  Cumberbatch's conscious decision to portray the character that way, I think Sherlock appears to be a lot gentler than he wants anyone to believe he is.

 

Although shooting Magnussen went a long way towards changing my mind. I still sincerely hope that's an aberration, and not the new normal. I like thinking Sherlock has a marshmallow in him somewhere. :D

 

And I like the two Moriartys theory too. We shall see, we shall see! Possibly soon?

[J.P.]

This scene... Actually it works better at the first view, when you don't know that Sherlock has a plan. Now I still have a feeling I won't understand it properly as long as I won't know what's in the heads of those two.

 

Don't have time right now, but before I forget: Sherlock says: I'm not my brother... What could he do that Mycroft couldn't?

[Slithytove]

That is a good point. Mycroft's power, due to his job, is far greater than Sherlock's, and he is supposedly the Ice Man. What could Sherlock do that is more icy than his brother's actions?

[J.P.]

Make Jim into shoes? But they can't talk...

[Van Buren Supernova]

That is a good point. Mycroft's power, due to his job, is far greater than Sherlock's, and he is supposedly the Ice Man. What could Sherlock do that is more icy than his brother's actions?

Maybe because of that, Mycroft's ability is limited. As in end of HoB, he could only do basic interogating torture, and Moriarty treats it as child's play. Mycroft also dislike direct involvement.

 

Sherlock, on the other hand, is much more skillful and hands-on in human anatomy. I wouldn't be surprise if he knows certain nerves and joints that inflicts the most pain and he is willing to get his hands dirty. And he also capable of finding non-physical torture that would get to Moriarty more, pressure point, weakness, kryptonite, mental torture (hallucination, consciousness, losing mind control etc that is more frightening than merely physical torture).

 

I bet all my money that Sherlock is much more capable to make Moriarty talk.

 

 

Oh. And hi.

[Slithytove]

Hi!  I do take your point, but I would think Mycroft is actually capable of quite sophisticated cruelty.  It seems to be implied not only by his manner and his reputation, but also by the fact that he can sit and calmly watch his own brother being tortured and can send him off on a one-way mission to his death.  (And God knows what befell "the other one!")

 

My guess is that it is emotion which gives Sherlock the edge.  Sherlock, despite his claims to the contrary, experiences powerful emotions and Jim evidently does as well.  In fact, he seems at times to be teetering on the verge of barely-suppressed rage, particularly in the swimming pool scene.  It is not only their genius and their boredom which makes them alike.  If anyone knew how to manipulate Jim's weaknesses - his anger, his vanity, his ambition - it would be Sherlock, rather than Mycroft, because he experiences them too.

 

That's my guess, anyway.  Though I suppose that the real reason was that Jim had to capitulate quickly and then top himself, to move the story on.  Credibility isn't something which bothers the writers too much, I think.  At least, it bothers us a lot more than it bothers them!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Or perhaps Moriarty knows that Sherlock is capable of being both cruel and emotional?

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

My guess is that it is emotion which gives Sherlock the edge. Sherlock, despite his claims to the contrary, experiences powerful emotions and Jim evidently does as well. In fact, he seems at times to be teetering on the verge of barely-suppressed rage, particularly in the swimming pool scene. It is not only their genius and their boredom which makes them alike. If anyone knew how to manipulate Jim's weaknesses - his anger, his vanity, his ambition - it would be Sherlock, rather than Mycroft, because he experiences them too.

 

Yes, well put.

I think it's summed up by Sherlock 'I am you.'

 

Imagine believing someone who is so much like you, think alike and experience what you do and maneuvering the way you do.

 

It is scary.

It's like someone who can read your mind.

 

And if Moriarty can drive Sherlock to the edge, so is the other way around.

[Arcadia]

Also I think Mycroft has societal constraints that he is more unwilling than Sherlock to put aside. Like those law things.