The Political Thread

[T.o.b.y]

3 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I think the impeachment process is confusing to everyone, (even those in congress!) but as I understand it, the end game is to prevent Trump from ever running for office again. Which is nice, but frankly I'm far more terrified that he will start his own media empire and continue to foul the world with his lies and bombast. Oh well, I guess that will happen anyway, whether or not Trump is on the loose ... the genie's out of the bottle. Maybe it's useful to have a public face to tie it to. I don't know, I just know I wish he would cease to exist.

My personal unqualified impression is that Trump and his presidency are mostly symptoms of much greater and deeper-rooted problems than causes of such. So unfortunately, even if he retired from politics and the public life completely, the people who gave him power will simply find the next leader to follow and the next movement to join.

[J.P.]

Absolutely. Even though I wouldn't call him a leader.
More of a puppet, he is so full of himself he must be quite easy to manipulate.
But in the end nobody knows and maybe won't ever know.

[Carol the Dabbler]

13 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Many times I found myself ready to try to indulge with counter reasonings, but then I stopped myself because I could picture which and which reasoning of mine that you would pick up and question, which, in my humble opinion, only send us to spiral discussion that I have to go back to my point again, after going around the forest.

I blame it on my INTJ and your INTP, I have an INTP friend and while we are both normally very quiet species, people could find us talking for hours about all kind of nonsenses and like you, he always wants to look and question any, every, every, and every single angle....

I feel the same way (only the other way round, of course).  I hate politics, so I originally created this thread specifically so I would know where the political discussions were and could readily avoid them!  But then I happened to notice that the "discussions" weren't really discussions -- there was basically only one point of view being represented here.  It occurred to me that this could very easily discourage new members from joining unless they happened to be on that side of politics -- which is ridiculous for a forum about a television show!  So I took a deep breath and spoke up.

I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative, but I live among conservatives and agree with them on certain issues, so I've been doing the best I can to represent the other side.  I do not expect everyone to agree here!!!  (Hell has not yet frozen over.)  But at least things have been less one-sided lately, and there have been some actual discussions.

As for your points regarding Mr. Trump, I understand what you're saying and agree to some extent.  I think he's made some very poor decisions.  But I think the Democrats are going WAY overboard in response, which is why I'm disagreeing with some of what you say.

6 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

My personal unqualified impression is that Trump and his presidency are mostly symptoms of much greater and deeper-rooted problems than causes of such. So unfortunately, even if he retired from politics and the public life completely, the people who gave him power will simply find the next leader to follow and the next movement to join.

I agree, he merely tapped into a segment of the population that had been feeling increasingly marginalized.  I think the root of the problem is the growing polarization in the US (perhaps in the world at large).  Used to be, Republicans and Democrats agreed on a good many things, and when they didn't agree they could often discuss their differences and work out a solution acceptable to both.  Nowadays there seems to be very little effort to communicate, and a large amount of energy spent on vilifying the other party.  The media have become polarized as well.

My theory is that this started with the fall of the Soviet Union.  Republicans and Democrats no longer had a common external enemy to focus on, so they started seeing each other as the enemy.  This has also led to each party making its positions more extreme.  And even when there's basic agreement on what needs to be done, the other party is vilified because they favor that action "for the wrong reason."

Another theory (from a sociology professor) is that the internet has caused the polarization, and this also seems plausible.  (Perhaps both are contributing factors).  People have always tended to associate mostly with those they are in basic agreement with.  But in real life someone who agrees with you on one thing is likely to disagree with you on something else, whereas the internet has so many forums, chat rooms, etc., that a person with just about any point of view can find a place where just about everybody agrees with them on virtually everything.  Plus Google does its best to show them only things that they'll agree with.  So there are apparently an awful lot of people who rarely encounter disagreement in their personal life.  Thus when they see people in the news who disagree with them in any significant way, it comes as a major shock that such horrible people could exist.

 

[besleybean]

Interesting points of view.

Yes, as ever it boils down to the same thing:

the worldwide web is both a blessing and a curse!

[Carol the Dabbler]

10 hours ago, besleybean said:

the worldwide web is both a blessing and a curse!

Indeed!

[J.P.]

23 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

But I think the Democrats are going WAY overboard in response, which is why I'm disagreeing with some of what you say.

Would you elaborate a bit? I agree that both sides are quite aggressive and loud.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, the most obvious example right now is the whole impeachment thing, when he's got less than a week left in office anyhow.  Plus they know darn well they aren't likely to get the 2/3 majority it would take to remove him from office.

 

 

[J.P.]

How should they react? Accept the unacceptable? Pence didn't want to invoke 25. Amendment. What else could they do to show their stance?

Remember what the subject of Impeachment was in Clinton's case?

If they get him impeached, he cannot run for 2024. He would lost his salaries and other costly privileges.
As for the majority: I'm not so sure any more. Once Trump got irrelevant, many of the Reps might change their minds to save their faces, like those who "realized" the coup "was too much" for them. Also - it might be the matter of how massively they are threatened by their own electorate and how they react to it.

[T.o.b.y]

 

15 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Well, the most obvious example right now is the whole impeachment thing, when he's got less than a week left in office anyhow.  Plus they know darn well they aren't likely to get the 2/3 majority it would take to remove him from office.

 

 

As far as I understood, the idea is to prevent him from running for office again. As for the majority, it seems unlikely to me too but who knows. We'll see...

Even if the whole thing goes through, I am far from optimistic though. First of all, like Arcadia pointed out earlier, there's still nothing stopping him from influencing public opinion and future political movements through social and other media, and besides, even if he disappeared completely, the people who gave him power in the first place wouldn't.

As for the loss of compromise and nuanced discussion, imho that became next to impossible when people stopped agreeing on basic facts and began to live in at least two completely separate realities. You need some kind of common ground after all. Also, the extreme ends of the spectrum seem to be getting louder and louder and I think we all have a point beyond which we aren't willing to go.

[J.P.]

The only hope is that he's disappointed his base by not showing up at the Capitol and (even iv half-heartedly) condemning the violence. Maybe also other of his supporters could jump off, as soon as they realized they could not make money or increase their influence with him any more. Or if they stop fearing his revenge.
I've had an impression that as soon as Biden won, the EU stopped to treat anything he did or said as relevant. Maybe he stopped being THAT relevant in the US too.
It's interesting times, sigh.

[Carol the Dabbler]

8 hours ago, J.P. said:

If they get him impeached, he cannot run for 2024.

Technically, he's already been impeached (that merely means being "put on trial" so to speak), but I know what you mean.  And yes, I just checked the Constitution, and the Senate does have the power to not only remove him from his current office but also to impose "disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States."  That may need to be two separate votes, each requiring a 2/3 majority.

8 hours ago, J.P. said:

Once Trump got irrelevant, many of the Reps might change their minds to save their faces, like those who "realized" the coup "was too much" for them. Also - it might be the matter of how massively they are threatened by their own electorate and how they react to it.

Umm -- coup?  It looked to me like a demonstration that got out of hand.  Trump should have realized that could very easily happen, of course, thus my comments about extremely poor judgement.  As for the Republican Senators, a lot of them have never liked Trump, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'd vote for his removal.  My impression is that most people who tend to vote for Republicans think the Democrats' motivations in this matter are basically political, so they would not look favorably on any Senator who voted against Trump, even if those voters don't personally like Trump.

4 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

As for the loss of compromise and nuanced discussion, imho that became next to impossible when people stopped agreeing on basic facts and began to live in at least two completely separate realities. You need some kind of common ground after all. Also, the extreme ends of the spectrum seem to be getting louder and louder and I think we all have a point beyond which we aren't willing to go.

Yes, exactly.  So far, I think most people are capable of halfway rational, fairly civil discussion of such matters (even if they disagree), but the closer you get to each end of the spectrum the less possible that is.  The politicians and the rabble seem roughly incapable of it.  Are you seeing the same sort of polarization in Europe?

4 hours ago, J.P. said:

It's interesting times, sigh.

*sigh*

 

[T.o.b.y]

5 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Are you seeing the same sort of polarization in Europe?

 

I'd say yes, definitely. In almost all European countries. What do the other Europeans around here think? 

[J.P.]

Absolutely. Especially after Trump's rhetoric became "fancy". All the neo-nazi-zombies crawled out of their holes feeling validated at last, happily adapting all possible conspiracy theories, with T as the saviour of our world.

Poland's ruling party had it's head so deep in T's a** that they didn't see the light anymore. They seriously wanted to take the troops moved from Germany and build a big, new, beautiful military base called Fort Trump. I'm really curious what the current theocratic government will do now. The whole country is torn between two factions which seem to remind those in the USA, AFAIK.

PS: To me it didn't look like a demonstration that went out of control (and as I mentioned, I was watching the whole thing almost in the real time). Why there were hardly policemen at site, even though EVERYBODY knew the mob would appear, wearing guns and looking for trouble. Why the mob was let in? Where was the Nat. Guard - during BLM protests they were called long before anything happened. Why it took so long to send out the orders calling them?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sorry, when I said "the same sort of polarization," I meant:  In Europe are liberals becoming increasingly more liberal and conservatives becoming increasingly more conservative?  (I didn't intend to ask about European reactions to what's going on in the US.)  We've been seeing this trend here in the US for at least 20 years, so I was wondering if it's also been occurring over there.

 

[J.P.]

Everything that happens in Europe is more or less a reaction on what happens in the USA.

It is hard to compare the political systems and names, the most of the EU have numerous parties, the bigger ones have a representation in parliaments - and "liberal" means something else here.
I don't see a political shift to left, but a very strong shift to right. We have Neo-Nazis walking streets and waving flags, politicians threatened and one of them killed. They might not become more right, but surely more visible and present in the politics, while the "left" presents ideas that are not left at all.

[J.P.]

Who is the guy with the black uniform?
https://twitter.com/annabotting/status/1350939358464012288?s=20

[Arcadia]

On 1/17/2021 at 6:41 PM, J.P. said:

Who is the guy with the black uniform?
https://twitter.com/annabotting/status/1350939358464012288?s=20

I can't see it. The Capitol police wear black, is it one of them?

Did anyone watch the inaugural? I expected to be bored, but I actually found it quite moving, instead. It was ... dignified. Something that's been sorely lacking for the last four years. My friend, who normally doesn't show any interest in politics, suddenly announced that she felt as if a great weight had been lifted from her shoulders. Aye to that. I hope the feeling lasts.

 

[J.P.]

I did watch, kind of while working. It felt… hard to find a word for this - no nonsense, not more than necessary. Was really moved watching Kamala's beaming face.
And it felt like an end to a long and annoying cramp.

I'm not expecting Biden to be an angel, I know for many people he is only the less of two evils. But I'm okay with this.

BTW, it seems I was right so far about the MAGA movement dropping Trump after January 6th. I hope you can see the article, it was behind the paywall so I had to save it elsewhere.
https://221cblog.files.wordpress.com/2021/01/e28098a-total-failure-the-proud-boys-now-mock-trump-the-new-york-times.pdf

[J.P.]

On a lighter note: What seems to be the most memorable thing from the inauguration is the photo of Bernie Sanders. The memes are taking over the world.

[Fantasy Lover]

I find those memes hilarious, here is a link with some of the memes https://amp.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/30-best-bernie-sitting-at-inauguration-memes-storming-the-internet/86556582/

[Caya]

Some of them are quite well done, imo:

And he's a good sport about it too, his store already has a "Chairman Sanders" sweater, with all proceeds going to Meels on Wheels Vermont.

Honorable mention:

[Fantasy Lover]

I saw that, I also saw that the lady who made his mittens is flooded with requests, I also saw this cute crochet doll https://www.etsy.com/nl/listing/933832118/bernies-mittens-crochet-doll-pattern-pdf?ref=shop_home_active_1&crt=1 unfortunately, you can buy the pattern and not the actual doll, but I'm sure it will be a matter of time before you can buy the actual doll on etsy.

[Artemis]

 

[J.P.]

This ☝️ is absolutely the best. There were also some with Sherlock, btw

[Arcadia]

22 hours ago, J.P. said:

BTW, it seems I was right so far about the MAGA movement dropping Trump after January 6th. I hope you can see the article, it was behind the paywall so I had to save it elsewhere.
https://221cblog.files.wordpress.com/2021/01/e28098a-total-failure-the-proud-boys-now-mock-trump-the-new-york-times.pdf

I hope that's true, but I wonder ... it seems awfully convenient. But then, I can't figure out how anyone ever believed in Trump to begin with.

The Washington Post has kept track of every lie and misleading statement Trump made while he was president ... the total was over 30,000. Why do people think he would lie that much about some things, but not lie to them? *sigh*

18 hours ago, Fantasy Lover said:

I find those memes hilarious, here is a link with some of the memes https://amp.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/30-best-bernie-sitting-at-inauguration-memes-storming-the-internet/86556582/

Thank you! I saw the one with the Edward Hopper painting and couldn't figure out what the joke was! I guess I didn't notice him at the inaugural. But that is pretty funny.