The Political Thread

[Van Buren Supernova]

On 2/13/2021 at 4:37 AM, T.o.b.y said:

It seems to me that it's this which makes the pandemic so hard to deal with. Well, part of it, anyway. 

I don't know about any of you but I was very much raised in a culture of "live and let live". Each to their own, including risk assessment and management. You want to drink? Fine, as long as you're aware of addiction and liver failure, go ahead. You want to smoke? Sure, we'll print pictures of lung cancer on the packages and if that doesn't stop you, your problem. You refuse to get vaccinated? OK, whatever, you're an adult, it's your choice. Etc etc etc. I mean, I live in a country where we can't have speed limits on all highways because the free people of car land have the right to risk their own necks. 

But now, say you have a nursing home and one resident says he'd rather have his family visit him even if he could potentially die in the case that one of his relatives passes on The Virus. But another resident says I am not ok with that risk and I live here too and if you get sick you can infect me. And we need to decide, whose right is more important? Person A's right to see their family or person B's right to protect their health? 

And we aren't used to that. We also aren't used to making individual choices based on community benefits (or losses). Not my generation where I live anyway. We were all going to follow our dreams and go our own way, tolerating and not bothering each other. It wasn't discussed what happens when all our wants and dreams are incompatible. 

This is where I find that 'right' could be the double-edged sword.

I support right as long as it doesn't harm others, as George Constanza waving his hands in the air frantically "Because we live in society!!!

That is why I support rules, reasonable rules, because, sadly, most humans seems to be incapable of not endangering themselves and others. I used to have higher opinion.. before Trump and pandemic. 

 

On 2/16/2021 at 2:59 AM, besleybean said:

Yes, I keep imaging something akin to the bra burnings, of the old womens' libbers!

🙃

Holy guacamole!!! That would be a fun day to hang around! 😋

[besleybean]

I sense a viral video!

[Arcadia]

7 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

That is why I support rules, reasonable rules, because, sadly, most humans seems to be incapable of not endangering themselves and others. I used to have higher opinion.. before Trump and pandemic. 

👍

[Van Buren Supernova]

Hi all,

It is happening and I can't fathom it, we never learn from mistakes, are we? How stupid we are?

What breaks my heart is seeing citizens of both countries, trying their best to survive and reject the war.

Those who declare war should be on the front line.

I don't know how this would affect you all, but please stay safe and well.

[besleybean]

There was a Ukranian Sherlock fan girl in Kiev, crying out to us all onTwitter...heartbreaking.

[Fantasy Lover]

Two of my roommates are Russian, they are horrified.

[Carol the Dabbler]

18 minutes ago, Fantasy Lover said:

Two of my roommates are Russian, they are horrified.

Yeah, all too often it's the so-called leaders (sitting safely far away from danger) who decide that a was would be a good idea.  The "common folk" (i.e., normal people) rarely agree.

In my opinion, the only excuse for war is defense against an invader, so the people of the Ukraine have my sympathy.

 

[besleybean]

Fighting with idiots on another forum, who think Putin is a living Saint and if the UK was attacked, would kill their whole family- rather than fight a war for the elite.

[Arcadia]

I just spent the past two hours catching up on this thread. Got started and couldn't stop.

I no longer have access to live television, and not much time to read the newspaper, so I'm not able to keep up with news the way I once did (or tried to). What I do see scares me to death, so maybe it's just as well. What's going on in Ukraine is sad and frightening. I hope they survive with their country intact. I hope we all survive.

But I'm curious ... now that a great deal of investigation has gone into the past US election, does anyone here still believe that the vote counting was illegitimate? I.e., that there's something suspicious about Biden winning?

Having been an election official in my past life I know how difficult it is to actually commit voter fraud. Everything I've read indicates there weren't any more attempts than usual, and that those attempts were just as useless at changing the outcome. As Carol likes to say, most people are decent ... there's not that many that actually resort to voter fraud. It distresses me to see that some people believe that, just because their person lost, that must mean the rest of us are cheating.

The funniest story I read about it (and as usual, I forget the details) was a case where the Republicans successfully forced a review of all the votes, and discovered there had indeed been some illegal ones ... and they were all for Trump.  

And since I'm commenting on past discussions, I have to make it known (because that's the way I am) that I have always supported Biden, even when he ran in previous elections. I think he's a sensible, capable, and moderate politician (and no, I don't believe "politician" is a slur) and a decent human being, not at all nasty. I'm sad to see him so poorly regarded in polls, so I feel like at least one person has to say something nice about him. So there you go. My civic duty done. 😛 

[Carol the Dabbler]

6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

now that a great deal of investigation has gone into the past US election, does anyone here still believe that the vote counting was illegitimate? I.e., that there's something suspicious about Biden winning?

There hasn't been (and isn't likely to be) much official investigation into the 2020 election, simply because the party accused of cheating is currently the party in power.  There have been a few independent audits in certain states, and as I understand it, those did uncover enough obviously fraudulent votes (e.g., the address given for the voter did not actually exist) to raise serious doubts.  But they did not do actual recounts (which would be a massive undertaking on the state level).  So yeah, I think it's entirely possible that if only legitimate votes were counted, Trump might have won, but of course we'll never know for sure.

I would very much like to see all states offer free voter ID cards (like Indiana currently does) and require that they be shown at the polls.  I also like Indiana's current system of allowing people to vote ahead of time by simply coming to the courthouse.  And I do not see how the new type of mail-in ballot is any more fair than the traditional absentee ballot, plus they're clearly much easier to fake, so I'd like to see those done away with.

6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

As Carol likes to say, most people are decent ... there's not that many that actually resort to voter fraud.

I do say that, yes, and I mean it.  But as the other saying goes, it only takes one bad apple.

6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

It distresses me to see that some people believe that, just because their person lost, that must mean the rest of us are cheating.

To some extent, that's simply human nature, isn't it?  Though it does seem to have gotten worse over the past 20 or 30 years.  I think some Democrats are still talking about the "stolen election" of 2000.

6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I have always supported Biden, even when he ran in previous elections. I think he's a sensible, capable, and moderate politician (and no, I don't believe "politician" is a slur) and a decent human being, not at all nasty.

I won't argue with you.  I've never met him, of course, but he does come across as a fairly decent human being.  If I had to choose between him and Trump to be sitting next to on a trans-Atlantic flight, I'd pick Biden for sure.  But that's not how I decide who to vote for.

I think most of the current sentiment against him is due to two things: disagreement with his policies and questions about his current level of competence.

 

[Caya]

3 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

There hasn't been (and isn't likely to be) much official investigation into the 2020 election, simply because the party accused of cheating is currently the party in power.  There have been a few independent audits in certain states, and as I understand it, those did uncover enough obviously fraudulent votes (e.g., the address given for the voter did not actually exist) to raise serious doubts.  But they did not do actual recounts (which would be a massive undertaking on the state level).  So yeah, I think it's entirely possible that if only legitimate votes were counted, Trump might have won, but of course we'll never know for sure.

That's a very serious accusation, Carol, and sorry but I'd take it a lot more serious if there were, like, any evidence at all, but so far nobody seemed able to produce any. And no, just like with the alleged Antifa involvement in the Capitol attack, absence of evidence is definitely not evidence of absence.

[Carol the Dabbler]

2 minutes ago, Caya said:

That's a very serious accusation

I'm not accusing anybody, merely saying that I think it's possible.

 

3 minutes ago, Caya said:

I'd take it a lot more serious if there were, like, any evidence at all, but so far nobody seemed able to produce any.

There have been several eye-witness accounts (which could of course have been misinterpretations or even outright lies) plus at least one suspicious video (which could of course have been misrepresented).  But as I already mentioned, the current administration has a less-than-zero incentive to look into any of that.  So if by "evidence" you mean officially-designated evidence, there won't be any, at least not any time soon.

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

I think sh*t has escalated quickly. Someone is throwing a tantrum because he is not allowed to break a toy.

I sincerely hope nuclear wouldn't happen, it shouldn't happen, my feeling is no. But then again I never thought Trump would be elected, and people would be so dumb during pandemic. I don't trust myself anymore, I have underestimated human's stupidity, violence tendency and self-destruct.

Do what you need to do to stay safe all, especially those who are near.

If I remember correctly, J.P is in Poland and Caya Austria, and Fantasy is not far as well? Sorry if I get it wrong. Be safe!

[J.P.]

I'm from Poland but living in Germany.
Not panicking yet, but I get my share of chills and deja vu's from the eighties. Sting's "Russians" runs in the radio.

I didn't expected that. At least not on that scale (there is a war since 2014 in parts of Ukraine that is still running). Many people think Putin went mad and I can understand this, especially as he looks a lot like a paper tiger - so far. Unless this is a trick too.

I wonder if that was the reason behind Russia supporting Trump - they wanted to have an ally in the USA.

[Fantasy Lover]

10 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

If I remember correctly, J.P is in Poland and Caya Austria, and Fantasy is not far as well? Sorry if I get it wrong. Be safe!

I'm European yes, but I'm from Belgium. Far away from the war.

[Caya]

Austria is one country (Hungary) removed from the Ukraine, so unless Putin really decides to go to war with the EU, we're safe here. Worried about coworkers with family closer to that horror, though. Incredibly impressed by the Ukrainians' bravery and how quickly and well their neighbors,  Poland especially, reacted to the refugees streaming in. 

And I'm with J.P. here in that I could definitely have done without those 80s flashbacks. 

[DistantView]

I have a friend who lives in Ukraine. I haven't spoken to him since Wednesday so hopefully he's still okay. 

He managed to speak with a couple of Russian soldiers and was told that many of the Russian troops don't even know why they are there/ why they invaded. 

This is really Putin's war, and many others are just being dragged along. I hope it ends soon; some of the photos I've seen are heartbreaking. 

 

Eta. Got a friend in Budapest too, so hopefully it doesn't extend that far. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

1 hour ago, DistantView said:

This is really Putin's war, and many others are just being dragged along.

Most wars are like that, I think.  Even WWII, which I've frequently seen referred to as a justifiable war, was basically Hitler's war, and the "justifiable" part was other countries' (quite understandable) reaction.

 

[DistantView]

15 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Most wars are like that, I think.  Even WWII, which I've frequently seen referred to as a justifiable war, was basically Hitler's war, and the "justifiable" part was other countries' (quite understandable) reaction.

 

Yes, most certainly.  I was speaking with my father about current events yesterday and we both made comparisons to Hitler, with regards to Putin's actions. 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

I hope this mindless craziness ends soon. 

I'm impressed by the courage of many, Zelensky puts Ukraine on the map and inspires many all over the world. Not all reality TV stars turn politians are created the same. Civilians are going head to head with armed enemies with their bare hands, snake island, stopping the tanks..

It's encouraging to see many come together from around the world, I hope it's consistent and not only current hype. Even hackers and billionaire join in.

Great effort by Poland, J.P. It's long way to go and future is unclear but doing what it can now is very admirable.

Glad you guys are in safe distance, anyway, at the rate of this is going, everyone could go down together. 

[J.P.]

It looks like Putin became the first "leader" who implemented the idea from Ender's War. "Just tell them it's a drill".
I'm taking the disinformation war into consideration, but it still looks like Vlad has lost his mind.

[Arcadia]

On 2/27/2022 at 1:26 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:

On 2/27/2022 at 10:55 AM, Arcadia said:

It distresses me to see that some people believe that, just because their person lost, that must mean the rest of us are cheating.

To some extent, that's simply human nature, isn't it?

Er... no? Not in the world I occupy, at least.

But ... one thing the Trump era taught me ... I live in a different world than a lot of people. I always knew the gulf was there, but I never knew it was so great. I genuinely fear he has "legitimized" attitudes that will eventually destroy this country.

[Fantasy Lover]

I don't know how things are in other countries, but Belgians offered their places for people freeing Ukraine with the hashtag spot free and people are donating their stuff to be sent to Ukraine. It warms my heart to see so much solidarity but at the same time my cynical side agrees with this article: https://www.funx.nl/news/funx/e8efe7fe-5fa0-4022-b516-064a851860a9/waarom-krijgt-de-oorlog-in-oekraine-meer-aandacht-dan-die-in-andere-landen

 

I'm not going to translate the entire article, but only the gist of it. It wonders where the solidarity was for the people in Syria or Afghanistan. Is it because its closer than the aforementioned countries? Is it because the inhabitants of the countries are people of colour? Is it because those countries are "uncivilised"? 

[Carol the Dabbler]

5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

one thing the Trump era taught me ... I live in a different world than a lot of people. I always knew the gulf was there, but I never knew it was so great. I genuinely fear he has "legitimized" attitudes that will eventually destroy this country.

As with most such things, my impression is that what you're seeing is simply the noisy minority who give the group a bad name.  Admittedly, I don't get out much these days, what with Covid plus living in the boonies, but from what I've seen here in Indiana, people with those extreme attitudes are relatively rare, and are very unpopular with everyone else.

Most of the people I know who voted for Trump did so simply because he was the only major alternative to Biden (and Harris).  And I suspect that most people who voted for Biden did so because he's not Trump.  So what worries me is how some Democratic-Party politicians keep moving further to the left while some Republican-Party politicians keep moving further to the right -- leaving the average voter stranded somewhere in the middle.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

5 hours ago, Fantasy Lover said:

It wonders where the solidarity was for the people in Syria or Afghanistan. Is it because its closer than the aforementioned countries? Is it because the inhabitants of the countries are people of colour? Is it because those countries are "uncivilised"? 

It may boil down to "unfamiliar," as compared to the people in the country right next door.  As an analogy, I'd be more likely to help someone I know than someone I don't know.