Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"

[jufloara]

After eating a bit of comfort food and yelling into my pillow I think I'm quite ready to give my review

 

4/10 - Decidedly below average

 

I feel like Mary's death was poor writing. ACD dealt with her by barely mentioning her, but by the way this series wrote itself it was impossible to do the same with her here. Mary has a dangerous past, she is still a dangerous person. They needed to address her. Do we embrace her as part of the crew? She has the experience of a hired assassin/spy, she could be useful. She genuinely loves John even though she lies to him a lot. She doesn't depend on anyone, but doesn't give that vibe of a forced "strong female character." She is crafty and has a bit of humour to her that I find quite tasteful. But the fans don't like her. No one forgave her after she shot Sherlock. Shippers hate her for the simple matter of her character following ACD canon and marrying John. Moffiss normally don't rely to the fandom for directions. They thrive on doing their own thing, and even though we gripe about it we still respect them for the twists they pull. But instead of exploring her character, we get this. A mess of an episode, with a debatable OOC John and a rushed Redemption Arc that obviously ends with Mary's death. She deserved better.  I know that many fans were claiming her head. Well now you have it. What the fans wanted but never, ever what this series needed. I thought it was above that. I guess not. 

 

Just a little note: the editing this episode was weird. I don't know if it was the water reflected on unnecessary scenes, or just the awkward camera angles but it didn't have the mastery of the early seasons. 

[J.P.]

So, spill the beans, dear J.P. , as our American members might say!

It's not AMMO. It's amo.

Like in Te amo.

[Pseudonym]

I'm not staying to join in the discussions yet, but overall I thought that was brilliant. 

[jufloara]

 

So, spill the beans, dear J.P. , as our American members might say!

It's not AMMO. It's amo.

Like in Te amo.

 

Yeah I think the official twitter made a statement like that. I don't think it was some hidden secret/future twist that will be revealed at the end of the season. It was implied and anyone who speaks Portuguese/Spanish would notice it.

 

If it affects the I love you scene in the trailer I think it only cheapens it. A cop out if you will. I'm not speaking as a shipper but as someone who expected a bit more from a key trailer scene than just a translation of the AGRA code

[jadpdr]

The AMO thing was discussed between the two brothers, when Sherlock asked Mycroft about his Latin. It was the code name of the operation in Georgia, when the AGRA team was engaged to free the British ambassador, Operation Love, that led to Lady Smallwood being suspected. To whom does Sherlock say 'I love you'?

And we were right, all the time, in SherlockedCamper 's Baby thread about Mycroft having known about Mary and having used her services before, not to mention kinder to her by making her run off, not having her killed by a mole! (very LeCarre and Bond-like).

[kaoss1990]

Did anyone notice that the audio overlay of Mary’s clip that Sherlock was mulling over in the taxi was a different take to the one he watched in the office. a more emotional performance.



deliberate or just sloppiness?

[Caya]

Hello kaoss1990 and welcome to the forum! And good question, that one.

[kaoss1990]

Hello!

[jufloara]

Sherrinford does indeed exist! If it's a brother, older or not, is up for debate. But Mycroft confirmed his existence in today's episode

Edited January 2, 2017 by Caya
Moved the post here, spoiler policy

[Ozgood]

I liked it a lot - plenty of plot, lots of nods towards ACD, and Benedict on top form as ever. I was not at all surprised by Mary's death, as I'd always predicted she would die saving Sherlock's life, thus supposedly redeeming herself. I'm glad they got rid of her character early on and I hope that, when he gets over being an idiot, John will resume his rightful status as Sherlock's BFF. (Of course, he'll still have to look after the baby, but presumably they'll work that into the plots.) Excellent performance by Amanda, though.

 

My only criticism is that they've made Sherlock a little bit too soft. I know the writers felt he should be wiser and kinder now but I liked his arrogance and his snarky remarks. Oh, well. You can't have everything.

 

And didn't we all expect 'the other one' to be called Sherrinford? Didn't expect him - or her - to be reachable by phone, though

What the heck is ADC?

[Redbeard]

I am liking this episode the more I digest it...I was never a fan of Mary and I didn't think they would kill her off so I am so glad they went there.  I think it frees up the show to focus on Sherlock and John, as it should be.  This episode was a bit too Mary-centric for me, but the pay off made it worth it.  She atoned for her sins so I can forgive her now lol. 

 

John being mad at Sherlock (yet again, ho hum) struck me as very unfair, but then his anger is coming from a place of guilt.  Like when he yelled at Sherlock "You made a VOW!" It was clearly him yelling at himself, for disrespecting the vow HE made to marry by getting "friendly" (or whatever happened there) with the girl on the bus.  John has his own demons and Sherlock is a convenient person to blame, but I am sure that John will realize that soon enough. 

 

Loved the mention of Sherrinford...intriguing.  

 

My first impression was that it wasn't the strongest of episodes, but it seems like one that would hold up / get better on repeat viewings, depending on how the rest of the season plays out.  

 

Also, on a shallow note - what was up with Sherlock's hair?  It didn't looks its best.  His hair is nearly a character all on its own isn't it?  Should have been longer, or shorter, or something... lol. 

[sittything]

I have to process a bit and come back, probably tomorrow after I get home (long drive home from the holidays), but:

 

 

We got to meet Sherrinford!!!!  I'm excited.  It's not Hiddles, but I'm still excited.  

 

I nerded out over the Amo, Amas, Amat... yay, Latin.  I too wonder if the 'I love you' Is going to tie into this.

 

Mycroft just gets better and better, or should I say Mark?  Glad we got to see so much of him.  The Holmes brother dynamic is as delightful as ever.  Seeing Mycroft in his kitchen with his empty fridge and take-out menus humanized him even more.

 

More Molly would have been nice, but this was essentially Mary's episode so I can live for now.  Molly and Sherlock at the church were too cute as godparents.  Glad to see Molly still feels like she can 'check' Sherlock; that she doesn't back down or shy away.  I still ship it (I know you're all shocked), delusional as it ever is.  She looked beautiful at the church.  

 

A shame how Mary went.  I wasn't particularly fond of Mary, but I think Amanda did a swell job, and I will miss her as part of the cast.

 

John, I'm not too sure how I feel about you right now.  The noises he made when Mary died, however, broke my heart.

 

Bless innocent Greg thinking Sherlock remembered his name.  He's too good, too pure for this world. 

 

Mary was in Norway.  There is a Hell, Norway.  Too direct?  I saw this mentioned on Tumblr.

 

 

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Initial reaction:

 

Glad I have this --> 

for bed tonight.  Need to re-watch the episode again.  Thankful PBS is re-airing it at 6:30pm CST next week before ep. 2.  Will post more thoughts later.  Might try reading this thread later.

[kanscram]

Sorry, I'm new to this, anyone understand what's with the girl on the bus and John?

[Arcadia]

Well.

 

First of all, welcome to all the new members! Glad to have you aboard, and happy to see you jump right into the discussion!

 

Also glad to see that most of you really like it. Alas, the best I could give it was a 3. As I feared, they have gone all James Bond-y, and I hated that aspect of it. There's lots, lots more I didn't like about it, but I'm not going to focus on that now. I've already seen it twice, and admit I got more out of it the second time ... so maybe I'll become reconciled to it over time.

 

My favorite bit was Sherlock getting the rattle tossed in his face. And I liked the bit where he was taunting Ms. Norbury to try to draw her ire to himself ... I thought that was well done, especially when Mary realized what he was up to and tried to stop him. But the moment the woman pulled the gun, I knew Mary would die trying to save Sherlock, and that John would blame him for it.

 

I loved the bit where they're all watching the dog do nothing in the daytime. :d

 

Sooo ... there's that. *sigh* Hope I can sleep tonight.

[T.o.b.y]

Sorry, I'm new to this, anyone understand what's with the girl on the bus and John?

Well, it was certainly implied that he had an affair with her, although it probably didn't go very far. But you never know. It might turn out to be completely different and the writers were just fooling us there. We shall see...

 

If he was indeed cheating on Mary, and during that particular time in their lives, too, I don't think Sherlock will be very happy if he ever finds out. He always seemed to have quite old-fashioned morals and to disapprove of marital infidelity in particular.

 

Their ideas about each other will certainly need to change. John has had brutal proof that the great Sherlock Holmes is in fact not almighty and could not keep Mary safe and Sherlock might find that John Watson isn't quite as good a man as he always thought. It will be very interesting - if they go there.

[Specul8or]

I hope this is the right place for this, but with some sort of Moriarty reprise being dangled I think it's worth mentioning that the Morrocan policeman who shoots Ajay just as they're figuring out Ammo looks an awful lot like you know who.

[Surelock]

 

I liked it a lot - plenty of plot, lots of nods towards ACD, and Benedict on top form as ever. I was not at all surprised by Mary's death, as I'd always predicted she would die saving Sherlock's life, thus supposedly redeeming herself. I'm glad they got rid of her character early on and I hope that, when he gets over being an idiot, John will resume his rightful status as Sherlock's BFF. (Of course, he'll still have to look after the baby, but presumably they'll work that into the plots.) Excellent performance by Amanda, though.

 

My only criticism is that they've made Sherlock a little bit too soft. I know the writers felt he should be wiser and kinder now but I liked his arrogance and his snarky remarks. Oh, well. You can't have everything.

 

And didn't we all expect 'the other one' to be called Sherrinford? Didn't expect him - or her - to be reachable by phone, though

What the heck is ADC?

 

 

I think he said 'ACD'.

 

ACD = Arthur Conany Doyle (author of the Sherlock Holmes books)

[Arcadia]

Yeah. I know I said a million times around here that I didn't believe they would kill her, certainly not so soon, but I can't say I am shocked they did, more like disappointed, because this was so very, very, very predictable and I guess I expected something much cleverer.

Yeah. Same here. :(

 

I too had this feeling of irritation when Sherlock showed up at Mary's hiding place/ destination, and with his whole I'm-the-only-one-who-can-protect-you spiel, as well as John's ultimate throwing his vow in his face- because both attitudes assume Mary to be passive and more like property, when she was really such an independent character.

I admit, that was one of the best laughs in the whole episode for me. It's a bit of a shaggy dog tale; here Mary goes to all this trouble to disappear, adopts all these disguises, and they film all these locations and show this arduous journey ... then there's Sherlock and John just sitting there waiting for her. I thought that was great. It's one of the two times I burst out laughing. And then it ends rather poignantly, with Sherlock saying they need to go back to London because it's the only place he can protect her ... and that's when I began to suspect Mary was going to die in this episode after all.

 

After eating a bit of comfort food and yelling into my pillow I think I'm quite ready to give my review

 

4/10 - Decidedly below average

 

I feel like Mary's death was poor writing. ......

 

Just a little note: the editing this episode was weird. I don't know if it was the water reflected on unnecessary scenes, or just the awkward camera angles but it didn't have the mastery of the early seasons.

Okay, I'm glad someone else nailed them for this before I did. I agree; I thought Mary's dying speech was horrible; cliched and maukish. So much so that I immediately began to suspect that it was all faked and she'll reappear in a later episode, alive, well and in hiding. The last few scenes of the episode rather belied that, though.

 

And I thought the editing was a complete muddle. There was no flow to the episode; it lurched from one scene to the next, I seldom had a sense of it being in a real place, etc. The shot of Vauxhall Bridge with those horrible cookie cutter buildings behind it ... that could have been anywhere. Ak. I'm not sure if the blame lies more with the editor or the director, but I rather suspect the latter.

 

Did anyone notice that the audio overlay of Mary’s clip that Sherlock was mulling over in the taxi was a different take to the one he watched in the office. a more emotional performance.

 

deliberate or just sloppiness?

My guess is, deliberate. I thought it was a nice touch, actually. Drew more attention to Mary's final act of love.

 

What the heck is ADC?

The initials for Arthur Conan Doyle. Most of us are too lazy to type out the whole name. :D

 

Sorry, I'm new to this, anyone understand what's with the girl on the bus and John?

The implication is that John had an affair with her, or at least was willing to entertain the possibility of having one. I think it's deliberately left open to each viewer to decide for themselves how far their relationship went. I'm curious to see if she reappears.

 

I'm not sure what I feel about this aspect of the story. It was the most unexpected development, that's for sure. And possibly the saddest development, as well.

 

ETA: Sorry, cross-posted with a couple of people there. Story of my life. :d

[Arcadia]

Their ideas about each other will certainly need to change. John has had brutal proof that the great Sherlock Holmes is in fact not almighty and could not keep Mary safe and Sherlock might find that John Watson isn't quite as good a man as he always thought. It will be very interesting - if they go there.

I can't think of any other good reason for them to introduce that side of John into the story, tbh. If they just drop it there, there's not much point to it except to diminish John in the eyes of the audience. And I can't think of a decent reason for them to do that unless it's for the sake of the plot.

 

On the other hand, I can't see Sherlock thinking it's any of his business. I suspect it will affect John himself more than anyone else.

 

Was there ever an estrangement between John and Sherlock in canon? I remember the Mr. Holmes movie alluded to it, but I figured they just made that up. Did they?

 

I hope this is the right place for this, but with some sort of Moriarty reprise being dangled I think it's worth mentioning that the Morrocan policeman who shoots Ajay just as they're figuring out Ammo looks an awful lot like you know who.

I didn't notice, and why would Moriarty interfere on Mary's behalf? Although I thought that was a really awkward scene, so it would be nice if it turned out to be more than just a random policeman turning up at the "right" moment.

[Inge l-w]

After rewatching it, to make sure of some things, I believe it is the best Mark Gatiss script to date. The tight demands of time made it look a bit wobbly, not the script itself. No one can overlook the Bond moments, but they are to be expected in a world where Mary Watson is a retired Mrs Smith, ex-assassin for hire.

The estrangement may be part of an overarcing plot line to defeat Culverton Smith later on.

Mary's repeated plea to save John Watson may harken back to TEH but also be part of another key code.

The editing is not so much to blame as the filming, in the first place: water is a definite background theme here, perhaps to pacify the JohnLockers who aren't going to get their wish in this series, at least.

What we may end up with is Two Men and a Baby, in which case Rosamund Mary should be called Sheralyn.

The cookie-cutter building was the headquarters of the British Security Services, but dear Arcadia doesn't seem to have watched any Craig Bond, and the over abundance of projectile weapons in this episode may have negatively influenced her. In that sequence, when Sherlock realised that it wasn't Lady Smallwood who betrayed the mission, but the unassuming secretary, he was literally running to Mycroft for help.

Since Dr Watson let Mary leave first for the same location, he can't very well lay all the blame on his alleged best friend.

Mind Palace probably not functioning properly, since in HOB Sherlock even counted Thatcher's biographies and correctly deduced the password to be Maggie. In TST, he seems to have completely deleted the information. Mind you, the same scriptwriter wrote both episodes! What's the matter, Mycroft? Are you slipping up?

Almost four years after HOB and TRF, like a true son of the North, Dr Watson is wearing the same chequered button down. In fact, he also wore it in HLV. Costume department getting lazy, or this is a true marvel: the indestructible shirt!

The elaborate joke of the dog obviously refers to both The Sign of the Four Toby, and to Silver Blaze, and it was light entertainment before getting into darker waters (pun intended).

[sfmpco]

Well, I have seen it twice now.  Wondering if I need to wait to comment until I have seen all three because of the story arcs.

[Alexako4]

Am I the only one who is not feeling particularly shocked at all?

 

Yeah, I didn't expect them to kill her, but it's not like it was unforeseeable. I did expect her to react like she did when she learned an enemy had caught up with her - shake off Sherlock, write John a note and run. Stupid boys. They should have just let her do her thing.

 

When the gun appeared at the Aquarium, I pretty much knew what was going to happen. Sherlock wasn't going to be shot in slow-mo again so very soon, so it was obvious whom the bullet was going to hit instead.

 

Can't say I particularly liked the second half of the script. But the acting was great. Ms Abbington is amazing!

I wasn't shocked at either, I mean really, she to much of an interesting character to stay in the show.

 

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[nicbro]

Am I the only one who thinks that any member of a hit squad (AGRA) who carries around with him a memory stick which, if it fell into enemy hands, would bring down all the other members of the squad in a trice, is an idiot? It's nor like a cyanide pill which you can bite on if capture is inevitable. How on earth was he going to get rid of it if he was cornered or simply killed?

 

I feel like I'm missing something here because it looks like such a glaring hole in the plot. Yes, I understand how it fits in with the earlier storyline but, even so, please tell me that there is going to be an explanation for this ridiculous behaviour in one of the next 2 episodes.

[Caya]

Hi nicbro and welcome to the forum! And thanks for helping my fulfill my Daily Learning Quota (never heard "trice" before). ;)

 

Might be explained yet but my gut feeling / experience with Moftiss and plot holes is that the Mary story arc is over and they'll move on.