Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"

[J.P.]

Read it as a quotation of other perston's post on tumblr.

 

But now when Mary is dead, there is no obstacle anymore. The way for JL is free.
 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Caya
moved and un-spoilered as per forum policy; also, it's *t*umblr, no editorials please ;)

[J.P.]

Before reading the whole thread:

My first thought of Sherrinford was: it's the Sherrinford Pizza Service. :D

 

And yes, I was also thinking Latin not Spanish. It's the same. It might be a password or something similar.

[Caya]

Well pizza delivery service played an important role in the central deduction of the first Torchwood episode, so there's precedence and you might be onto something there. :lol:

[Fantasy Lover]

Read it as a quotation of other perston's post on tumblr.

 

But now when Mary is dead, there is no obstacle anymore. The way for JL is free.

 

Seriously? I ship Johnlock too, but for the love of God let the man grieve.

[bedelia1984]

 

Sorry, I'm new to this, anyone understand what's with the girl on the bus and John?

Well, it was certainly implied that he had an affair with her, although it probably didn't go very far. But you never know. It might turn out to be completely different and the writers were just fooling us there. We shall see...

 

If he was indeed cheating on Mary, and during that particular time in their lives, too, I don't think Sherlock will be very happy if he ever finds out. He always seemed to have quite old-fashioned morals and to disapprove of marital infidelity in particular.

 

Their ideas about each other will certainly need to change. John has had brutal proof that the great Sherlock Holmes is in fact not almighty and could not keep Mary safe and Sherlock might find that John Watson isn't quite as good a man as he always thought. It will be very interesting - if they go there.

 

 

I think this may all be part of a set up that makes the episode ultimately pay off quite well. It seemed like this girl on the bus is up to something, she's working for an agent of Moriarty. I say that because she's this peculiar blend of the nice girl type John likes, who is also hellbent on a affair- so I think she definitely isn't all she seems, it is just too convenient.

 

So, Mary of course knows what has been happening, has investigated this girl, knows the kind of trouble John is in and has asked Sherlock to step in and save him, because now she can't. - Also, Arcadia, this might be how Sherlock does get dragged into it all, despite it originally not being his business- when he figures out that John betrayed Mary and Mary knew about it, this will really affect how much respect he has for John I think.- but he will, of course try to save him.

 

 

The tight demands of time made it look a bit wobbly, not the script itself.

 

 

I agree with this, I think you could see some fun scenes got sliced up very thin, to make room for all the AGRA plot (which I would have liked less of personally.)

 

Okay, I'm glad someone else nailed them for this before I did. I agree; I thought Mary's dying speech was horrible; cliched and maukish. So much so that I immediately began to suspect that it was all faked and she'll reappear in a later episode, alive, well and in hiding. The last few scenes of the episode rather belied that, though.

 

 

I find this interesting, and see more things to support it than shut it down- was there a hint of a cremation (to prevent an autopsy?), her saying that she enjoyed 'being Mary Watson'- is she just leaving a persona behind? It is hard to reconcile that Mary would willingly leave her family for good- without ever being able to protect her daughter again. But if this was somehow faked, was she also working with Vivienne? And the John/ Mary relationship would be over in either way, but then maybe it already was if she knew of his affair.

[jadpdr]

In Entertainment Weekly today Mr Moffat explicitly said that Mary is dead, that they had debated whether to kill her off in Ep. 1 or Ep. 3. Their tradecraft is decidedly below par, as scriptwriters, but then it's Sherlock, not Smiley. The girl on the bus seemed to be waiting for a chance to give Dr Watson that slip of paper,kept twisting it in her hands. Also, just E? And the whole nocturnal texting could be with someone else.

What jarred is Sherlock's arrogant attitude being slowly eroded by sentiment. We shall see.

P.S. @Caya: you have never before seen 'trice' mentioned above, because it should be spelled 'thrice' , that's autocorrect for you )

[Dorian]

 

I liked it a lot - plenty of plot, lots of nods towards ACD, and Benedict on top form as ever. I was not at all surprised by Mary's death, as I'd always predicted she would die saving Sherlock's life, thus supposedly redeeming herself. I'm glad they got rid of her character early on and I hope that, when he gets over being an idiot, John will resume his rightful status as Sherlock's BFF. (Of course, he'll still have to look after the baby, but presumably they'll work that into the plots.) Excellent performance by Amanda, though.

My only criticism is that they've made Sherlock a little bit too soft. I know the writers felt he should be wiser and kinder now but I liked his arrogance and his snarky remarks. Oh, well. You can't have everything.

And didn't we all expect 'the other one' to be called Sherrinford? Didn't expect him - or her - to be reachable by phone, though

What the heck is ADC?

Arthur Conan Doyle, you seem to have flipped the D & C yourself by mistake.

[nicbro]

"Trice" noun: a very short time; an instant.

Yes, I fear they have moved on but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a very odd 'mistake' to have made. Also, without wishing to make too big a thing of this, AJ simply pushed the memory stick into the bottom of the Thatcher bust and a) it would have fallen out as soon as the bust was picked up but b} why did all the busts need to be smashed if it had miraculously not been discovered on wrapping /unwrapping?

[sherlockandjohn]

Hiya! Been a while. Glad to be back, if only temporarily

 

I liked the episode as a whole, though it's not among my favorites. However, it didn't shock or upset me like HLV did. In fact, I thought it followed up very well on the consequences for Mary. I actually like her better now than I ever did. Thought it was pretty amazing what she did for Sherlock, and she showed real remorse for the happenings in HLV. That was satisfying for me. But I don't think we're done with the consequences... Mary hints at it in her message to Sherlock, that he should remember that living a dangerous life will catch up on him.

 

I wasn't a big fan of the style of the episode, in that it feels very sober, not unlike HLV. Don't think the show will ever be what it was - fun, light, adventurous - not to the same degree, anyway. Also, Sherlock has become humanized, and - oh my - the shock when I saw him at the therapist!

 

John Watson will be beating himself up later on, I imagine. He might already be doing that, and only using Sherlock's "failure" to keep his vow as an excuse.

[J.P.]

I was trying to find the right word for this and I'm still not sure if it fits.

 

Too much.

 

The whole episode felt overdone.

Too much comedy (would Mycroft really fight with Sherlock over his telephone? Would Sherlock be SO high given the circumstances?)

 

Too much of a drama (Mary's dying scene, and above all John's reaction - they should have done it in Martin's subdued way, I can imagine a bunch of interpretations that would work much better)

 

Too much editing - it's not only the Skull print, the whole episode had a big fat WRONG! popping up in my head, it feels A LOT like a dream, even more than TAB. Honestly, TAB LOOKS more like Sherlock than TST.

 

Too much feeling for Sherlock. It's the day or two after he's back from the airplane, but not only 221B has changed - also his personality. His words about instinct could be my own, but talking about it doesn't fit. At the beginning, him reading the story in the background doesn't fit…

 

The aggressive flirting of the woman in bus does not look natural. BUT she's the lady in red we see later, and there is a piece of the poster with Toby Jones' face on it visible in the scene, so maybe she's not what she seems to be.

 

It did move me. Even the dying Mary managed it, despite the cheesy lines. But I need to watch it again, to take in the story itself. Apparently I was too ocupied with the "WRONG!s" in my head.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

The best scene ever though was definitely this:

 

“As ever Watson, you see but do not observe. To you the world remains an impenetrable mystery whereas to me it is an open book. Hard logic versus romantic whimsy, that is your choice. You fail to connect actions to their consequences. Now, for the last time, if you want to keep the rattle, you do not throw the rattle.” (Thanks to radiotimes.com, where I found that quote.)

 

:D That was definitely the funniest bit in the episode! So Sherlock-y!

[sherlockandjohn]

As some of you, I think Sherlock is getting too soft. It makes the show more sober, less fun - which is alright for most shows and movies, but for 'Sherlock' it makes it less exciting. However, it's not all bad. It does make for some really beautiful scenes. A really good one of that sort was between him and Mrs. Hudson, when he said to her, very soberly: "If you ever think I'm becoming a bit full of myself, cocky or over-confident, would you just say the word 'Norbury' to me, would you? ... Just that. I would be very grateful". That kind of broke my heart.

 

Love that scene, although I think it's a bit funny how he is wording it... I mean, it's not like he is "becoming" any of that; he's been like that forever

[Redbeard]

In Entertainment Weekly today Mr Moffat explicitly said that Mary is dead, that they had debated whether to kill her off in Ep. 1 or Ep. 3. Their tradecraft is decidedly below par, as scriptwriters, but then it's Sherlock, not Smiley. The girl on the bus seemed to be waiting for a chance to give Dr Watson that slip of paper,kept twisting it in her hands. Also, just E? And the whole nocturnal texting could be with someone else.

What jarred is Sherlock's arrogant attitude being slowly eroded by sentiment. We shall see.

P.S. @Caya: you have never before seen 'trice' mentioned above, because it should be spelled 'thrice' , that's autocorrect for you )

 

I am happy to hear that Moffat said Mary is dead for real.  I was really hoping it wasn't going to be a fake out.  The precedent is there, with Sherlock's elaborate "death", though if she did it I am sure it would be with John's knowledge since she would not intentionally put him through all that again.  When she said something like the best way to protect her family is to be far away from them, that's what made me wonder if she may have faked her death.  But, real death works even better I guess, so in a way her sacrificing herself to save Sherlock was maybe more than just a way to save Sherlock, but in that split second she determined it would ultimately protect John and the baby as well. 

 

Personally I am glad she's dead not because I disliked Mary (well, I kind of did) but mostly because I couldn't reconcile Sherlock Holmes and John Watson taking a known criminal / assassin in as one of their friends.  Made them hypocrites to me.  Glad she is gone, and glad she went honourably. 

 

Edited to add:  I also am hoping there is more to the John / girl on the bus thing than we think.  It seems to be an affair but things aren't always what they seem, right?  It felt very icky when that was happening, Mary didn't deserve that.  So I hope there is something different than we are lead to believe there.  That would be a tough one to accept. 

[Arcadia]

S&J, welcome welcome back! You have been missed!!!!!
 

"Trice" noun: a very short time; an instant.

Yes, I fear they have moved on but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a very odd 'mistake' to have made. Also, without wishing to make too big a thing of this, AJ simply pushed the memory stick into the bottom of the Thatcher bust and a) it would have fallen out as soon as the bust was picked up but B) why did all the busts need to be smashed if it had miraculously not been discovered on wrapping /unwrapping?

I thought the same thing ... why didn't the stick just fall out when someone picked up the bust? But maybe Ajay forced it in there more securely than it looked.
 
I assume those were not the completed busts (didn't get a good enough look), and that more plaster would have been added to them later, which would have covered the opening. That's why they had to be broken open.
 

I was trying to find the right word for this and I'm still not sure if it fits.
 
Too much.
 
The whole episode felt overdone.

Yep-p.

I've seen it three times now and I don't hate it as much as I did on first viewing (except for the "high on life" scene, that gets worse with each viewing ... that's not Sherlock being high on life, that's Benedict acting!!!!! :( ) ... but it will never be a favorite episode, either. Maybe my expectations were too high, although I really thought I didn't have any. Well, many.
 
Okay, I guess I still need to wait until I see the rest of the series to really have at it. Don't want to become a lead balloon.

[Bellona]

As some of you, I think Sherlock is getting too soft. It makes the show more sober, less fun - which is alright for most shows and movies, but for 'Sherlock' it makes it less exciting. However, it's not all bad. It does make for some really beautiful scenes. A really good one of that sort was between him and Mrs. Hudson, when he said to her, very soberly: "If you ever think I'm becoming a bit full of myself, cocky or over-confident, would you just say the word 'Norbury' to me, would you? ... Just that. I would be very grateful". That kind of broke my heart.

 

Love that scene, although I think it's a bit funny how he is wording it... I mean, it's not like he is "becoming" any of that; he's been like that forever

 

Again, from radiotimes.com:  they mention this as a reference, which I didn't knew about and found quite nicely done:

 

"(...) In Conan Doyle story The Adventure of the Yellow Face, Holmes rushes too quickly to a conclusion and misses the exact solution to the case, which lies in a cottage in the town of Norbury, south-west London. Afterwards, he tells Dr Watson, "if it should ever strike you that I am getting a little overconfident in my powers, or giving less pains to a case than it deserves, kindly whisper 'Norbury' in my ear, and I shall be infinitely obliged to you."

[sherlockandjohn]

S&J, welcome welcome back! You have been missed!!!!!

 

 

Thank you I have missed you guys too!

[J.P.]

Oh, yes, this really bothered me:

How comes that Sherlock, after decucting the „Maggie“ password in HOB suddenly doesn‘t know who she is. Has he deleted it?

[Fantasy Lover]

Apparently.

[hann156]

I have been a bit lazy to write anything here, but now because of the new episode I have to crawl back from my cave and say something "wise" about the new episode. Still feels like .....

 

As a whole, the episode was a solid start for the new season. It had humor, tragedy, Sherlock being his lovely little self, newborn baby etc. Still I have to say, that this wasn't the best episode I've seen. It was only decent. However, I have felt in every season that the first episode hasn't been the best, so with S4 I'm expecting to see some development in the next episodes. I desperately want to know what on Earth is Moriarty's role in this whole mess.

 

Why I was so shocked about this episode is the grimness of it. It was a bit funny at the beginning, but it started to change to a darker style towards the end. I'm not sure whether it's good or not. After I watched the episode, I felt a bit anxious and confused. Now I'm really concerned for John! What the heck, don't be angry to Sherlock...I feel that something really nasty is going to happen to him and the bus lady is acting a huge role in that nastiness.

Even though I wasn't a huge fan of Mary, what happened to her was horrifying. It was very audacious from the writers to kill a main character right in the start of the new season. Still don't know what to think. Mixed feelings.

 

Looking forward for the next week!

Edited January 2, 2017 by Caya
no need for spoiler boxes in this thread, so I removed them, but thank you anyway :)

[Van Buren Supernova]

Whew, I didn't expect it to be shown that early (I woke up thinking there were some hours to visit the forum before it aired somewhere, and found that it had been aired/discussed!).

Of course I scrambled madly (madly!) trying to find... ahem.. a way to watch it. Not my fault, if I had to stick with proper way, I would only able to watch it when the DVD's out!). It was difficult, but I managed, obviously. Hope it stays the same for the next two weeks.

 

Anyway, mixed reviews from you all, which I feel the same for now, however, I will wait until I have watched all to comment on the overall story line.

 

 

Couple of comments on others:

 

- Regarding comment about needing to smash statues instead of just taking USB out, I believe the statues were only half finished when he put it in, therefore the USB was buried.

The statue story line seems very familiar to me. Did I read it somewhere in the forum, or is it in the book? (If yes, I probably had read more Sherlock than I thought?)

 

- It ... doesn't feel as familiar as other episodes to me. Not sure why. Probably because it's a bit jumpy and different. Actions, baby.. and hair.

What is wrong with everyone's hair??? I hate John's the most. It is... not John. Why they change it?

Sherlock's hair looks different too, I think it's BC's natural hair but not as long as Sherlock in the beginning? Luckily it gets better second half of episode, he looks more muscular, yes, of course because Dr. Strange, his shirts are a bit different too, not as tight, I suppose.

 

- He looks significantly tan around the scene when he thought about the statue.

 

- There is a shadow of girl in the bus on John's plane window.

 

- Mycroft's interior is very weird. The tile choice, the wall material, the fridge position. It doesn't look like Mycroft's at all. Looks almost like a temporary place he goes to or rents. His bolt hole?

 

- What disturbs me the most, why on earth noone shot that woman when she revealed her gun? There was time. I thought 'okay, it's safe now', when Mycroft and Lestrade appeared. But no, no one bother to take precaution and just stood there when a just-exposed-mastermind pointed a gun. It's..gah! Bothers me the most..idiots!

Okay, let me continue a big more. Yah, as a trained assassin, agent or whatever, the only way to save someone is by jumping in front of him? Knock him out of bullet way! Something else..! This part just.. doesn't make sense to me.

 

- A bit bum with John's storyline as well. I get that he has trust issue with Mary, but I believed him when he said that her future is his privilege. After all that, and baby, how could he even considers flirting. Hope I'm not watching soap. Huh.

And I believe strongly that bus girl has agenda. A plant. Something important.

 

- The vow thing.. said too many times, played too much.

 

- Like Sherlock's interaction with baby.

- Like 'greg'

- And Molly

- And Mycroft. What would I do without you?? There were countless of times when I wasn't sure what to say when someone showed me a baby. THANK YOU!

 

- I kind of like Sherlock kicking ass.

 

- saw it coming that Sherlock was the one with the therapist, and when he said he doesn't function that way, something along that line, it hits me.

 

Mixed feeling, but I'm so very happy Sherlock is back. :cowdance:

 

Oh, newbiesss... if you guys just make use of us as support group for S4, how dare..!! .. well, there is nothing much I can do about it! :p welcome!

 

Eta:

- ammo said Moriarty's line: why would anyone do(does?) anything?

- how Mary died is almost exactly how I predict Molly's death (based on nothing spoilery as I know none), that she dies to save Sherlock who indirectly causes her death), but in my prediction, Sherlock would grieve intensely and retract from everything

[Caya]

I know little and less about guns, but knocking someone out of harm's way is probably one of those things that sounds a lot easier than it really is. For starters, Sherlock's probably heavier than Mary, so she'd have to pack some serious oomph into it, even more so because he'd probably reflexably tense and/or defend himself from a supposed attack. Also, it can't be easy to determine where exactly the bullet will travel - what if you tried to help and knocked the victim into harm's way instead? Try explaining that you were only meaning well after that, especially with Mary's backstory. Jumping in front of someone to take the bullet for them is probably one of the more failsafe ways to keep them from harm (if a bit hard on yourself).

[hann156]

Oh, yes, this really bothered me:

How comes that Sherlock, after decucting the „Maggie“ password in HOB suddenly doesn‘t know who she is. Has he deleted it?

 

- It ... doesn't feel as familiar as other episodes to me. Not sure why. Probably because it's a bit jumpy and different. Actions, baby.. and hair.

What is wrong with everyone's hair??? I hate John's the most. It is... not John. Why they change it?

Sherlock's hair looks different too, I think it's BC's natural hair but not as long as Sherlock in the beginning? Luckily it gets better second half of episode, he looks more muscular, yes, of course because Dr. Strange, his shirts are a bit different too, not as tight, I suppose.

 

- He looks significantly tan around the scene when he thought about the statue.

 

I thought I was taking notice to useless details, but I also noted that Sherlock's hair was shorter (or different in another way), and he was tanned. Tan didn't suite Sherl very much because I think he's a bit "nerdy" guy hanging in his apartment solving crimes rather than going to a vacation to sunbathe.

 

I have to say that I liked John's new hair...   But as one of my friends once said, (who loathes Benedict! :D ) there's no arguing in the taste of men, because it differs so much.

[sherlockandjohn]

So now we know that Mary isn't the one in the hospital, whom John visits in a scene from the trailer. Maybe it's Sherlock, seeing as he apparently gets shot (also in the trailer). Could be anyone, I suppose, but I really hope it's not the baby. That would be too cruel.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

The rub is, possible unpopular opinion but I am tired of seeing John moping. I could kind of do without that, and the estrangement, for the next two episodes. I hope there is some way to put things back together a bit more quickly, I don't want to have to wait for another season for them to be friends again!!

 

I don't think we need to worry. The trailer for 'The Lying Detective' sees Sherlock and John apparently working together again.

[J.P.]

 

- And Mycroft. What would I do without you?? There were countless of times when I wasn't sure what to say when someone showed me a baby. THANK YOU!

Hall, YES.

I'm going to write to Mark about it. It's so beeping me!