Jump to content
Undead Medic

Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"

What did you think of "The Six Thatchers"?  

93 members have voted

  1. 1. Add your vote here:

    • 10/10 Excellent.
    • 9/10 Not quite the best, but not far off.
    • 8/10 Certainly worth watching again.
    • 7/10 Slightly above the norm.
    • 6/10 Average.
    • 5/10 Slightly sub-par.
    • 4/10 Decidedly below average.
    • 3/10 Pretty Poor.
      0
    • 2/10 Bad.
    • 1/10 Awful.


Recommended Posts

Yeah, some of them get a bit harsh. Doesn't reflect too well on them, imo. ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Arcadia -- I suspect you're in the right general neighborhood regarding John's motive for tracking Mary, so he's apparently human.  ;)  But I still don't think he's got a whole lotta room to criticize her for not trusting him!

3 hours ago, besleybean said:

Never bought the theory and still don't...

Can't speak for anyone but myself -- however, I've never been totally serious about the Evil Twin thing.  It's just one somewhat plausible way to explain some of what we saw in Series 4.  Kind of a game, really.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

@Arcadia -- I suspect you're in the right general neighborhood regarding John's motive for tracking Mary, so he's apparently human.  ;)  But I still don't think he's got a whole lotta room to criticize her for not trusting him!

Well, yes and no, imo … because first of all, I think her betrayal (lying to him, shooting Sherlock) was a lot greater than his (tracking her without telling her) and secondly, because I found John's "betrayal" a lot less self-centered than hers. But I accept that their motivation was about the same; each wanted to keep the other; and that could be seen as a bit selfish.

A lot of these "positive comments" that I mentioned above include shipping Sherlock and Mary (non sexually and otherwise), and some of them are almost plausible; in some ways they are more a perfect couple than John and Mary are. And you could say that John saw it, which presumably wouldn't have done much for his self esteem … which you'd think had already taken several blows from both of them. So I also have to wonder if maybe Sherlock was right about him … he likes it. Poor John, no wonder he's so messed up in S4.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank God *my* life isn't being written by the Moftisses!

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or any other scriptwriter! :D Can you imagine having a major crisis every week? I can barely survive the ones I do have. :D 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Yeah, some of them get a bit harsh. Doesn't reflect too well on them, imo. ;) 

I (think) I get it though. Mary rubs me the wrong way too at least 50% of her screen time, even though I love how Amanda Abington plays her and I think she is a very good actress. 

I still think that Mary would have worked much better as the main character of her own show. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

I still think that Mary would have worked much better as the main character of her own show.

I think you're right -- when she was on this show, it was like having two Sherlocks in the same room.  She needed her own space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, but I thought that was the whole point...

John married a female Sherlock.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't say it too loud! It could fuel certain Conspiracies! Apart from this - yepp. And I also think that Mary seemed to be better partner to Sherlock than John. They even solved crimes already!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, besleybean said:

John married a female Sherlock.

John is of course no slouch himself, but he seems to enjoy the company of quick-witted, unconventional people.  Even when Mary was pretending to be fairly ordinary, she was witty and quick on the uptake.  So in that sense, yeah.

2 hours ago, J.P. said:

I also think that Mary seemed to be better partner to Sherlock than John. They even solved crimes already!

Yup, it sure looked like John was the odd one out a lot of times.  I just wonder how well a Sherlock-Mary partnership would have worked in the long run, though.  Sherlock needs an audience (Mary presumably not so much, considering her former occupation).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

I (think) I get it though. Mary rubs me the wrong way too at least 50% of her screen time, even though I love how Amanda Abington plays her and I think she is a very good actress. 

Yeah, but you don't go around bad-mouthing her and trying to turn the rest of the fandom against her.

Not sure, but I don't think I ever really felt like Mary was another Sherlock; they're both smart, but in different ways, just like Mycroft and Sherlock are both smart but different. I did feel like John was all but missing in S3, but I don't think it was because that time was given to Mary, was it? The story just became more focused on Sherlock, instead of Sherlock-and-John. Or so it seemed to me.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 I did feel like John was all but missing in S3, but I don't think it was because that time was given to Mary, was it? The story just became more focused on Sherlock, instead of Sherlock-and-John. Or so it seemed to me.

It felt to me like John was not so much missing as ignored in S3.  It would be interesting to compare how much dialog he has in S3 vs S1 and S2.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think if I had seen the first two episodes first (instead of seeing S2 first), I might have thought John was the lead character! Then after that they were pretty equal, until ...

Remember when Moftiss said S4 would be about consequences? But consequences of what? I read an interesting "meta" (if anyone's interested, I can try to find it again); I didn't agree with everything in it, but I liked the basic premise; that the consequences were for Sherlock faking his death in TRF. Which I still think was a massive betrayal of John's trust, for which he never quite forgave Sherlock. Even in T6T he's sort of distant, isn't he? Off in the kitchen with Mrs. H and leaving a balloon in his chair, things like that. Maybe that's part of what we're sensing; a certain disengagement on John's part? He's there, he enjoys Sherlock, but he's no longer as invested in their partnership? Besides, he's got what he thinks he wanted all along … Mary. So maybe he's not being ignored so much as deliberately remaining on the sidelines, until TFP. Maybe we're supposed to miss him?

Nah. That all seems far too complicated for Moftiss. But I still like the idea. :smile: 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I think if I had seen the first two episodes first (instead of seeing S2 first), I might have thought John was the lead character! Then after that they were pretty equal, until ...

Remember when Moftiss said S4 would be about consequences? But consequences of what? I read an interesting "meta" (if anyone's interested, I can try to find it again); I didn't agree with everything in it, but I liked the basic premise; that the consequences were for Sherlock faking his death in TRF. Which I still think was a massive betrayal of John's trust, for which he never quite forgave Sherlock. Even in T6T he's sort of distant, isn't he? Off in the kitchen with Mrs. H and leaving a balloon in his chair, things like that. Maybe that's part of what we're sensing; a certain disengagement on John's part? He's there, he enjoys Sherlock, but he's no longer as invested in their partnership? Besides, he's got what he thinks he wanted all along … Mary. So maybe he's not being ignored so much as deliberately remaining on the sidelines, until TFP. Maybe we're supposed to miss him?

Nah. That all seems far too complicated for Moftiss. But I still like the idea. :smile: 

Dunno if it's too complicated... But I agree, The Fall has reverberations until the end of The Lying Detective. That's where I think John finally forgives Sherlock - truly forgives him, not just says so or intends to. Which may be why I feel like the series ends there and The Final Problem is more of an epilog. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

I read an interesting "meta" [....] I liked the basic premise; that the consequences were for Sherlock faking his death in TRF. Which I still think was a massive betrayal of John's trust, for which he never quite forgave Sherlock.

I agree that it took some time, but I think they were genuinely reconciled after the best-man speech.  John could tell it was heartfelt (after some initial goofing around), and The Hug looked very genuine to me.

I think the resentment that lingered well into S4 was from the way Sherlock and Mary ganged up on him in HLV -- and then tried to lay the blame on John.  That could have reawakened a bit of residual Fall resentment, but I think mainly he was sore over the HLV guilt trip.  (I sure would have been!)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, besleybean said:

TFP remains my favouite episode.

Really? Cool, I thought most people hated it. Care to elaborate? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I agree that it took some time, but I think they were genuinely reconciled after the best-man speech.  John could tell it was heartfelt (after some initial goofing around), and The Hug looked very genuine to me.

I think the resentment that lingered well into S4 was from the way Sherlock and Mary ganged up on him in HLV -- and then tried to lay the blame on John.  That could have reawakened a bit of residual Fall resentment, but I think mainly he was sore over the HLV guilt trip.  (I sure would have been!)

That may be too. But the fake suicide would bother me more, I think, so naturally I project that onto John. :D 

9 hours ago, besleybean said:

Eurus 😍

I like Eurus too, I find her interesting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/28/2018 at 7:52 PM, Arcadia said:

A lot of these "positive comments" that I mentioned above include shipping Sherlock and Mary (non sexually and otherwise), and some of them are almost plausible; in some ways they are more a perfect couple than John and Mary are. And you could say that John saw it, which presumably wouldn't have done much for his self esteem … which you'd think had already taken several blows from both of them. So I also have to wonder if maybe Sherlock was right about him … he likes it. Poor John, no wonder he's so messed up in S4.

I guess I see why Moftiss had to off Mary in some way, but the S/J/M triad (sexual or not) has always been my preferred solution, once Mary was on the scene.  Just admit that the three of them make a half-way sane "couple" most of the time.  Three Continents can have the physical part of the marriage, and Sherlock can have an accomplice in crime-solving.

That and the fact that the only realistic way I see for working people to raise a child well is to have three or more adults in the family who rotate being at home with the kid.  :-)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well there are plenty of single dads, who manage just fine with the help of friends.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Boton said:

I guess I see why Moftiss had to off Mary in some way, but the S/J/M triad (sexual or not) has always been my preferred solution, once Mary was on the scene.  Just admit that the three of them make a half-way sane "couple" most of the time.  Three Continents can have the physical part of the marriage, and Sherlock can have an accomplice in crime-solving.

That and the fact that the only realistic way I see for working people to raise a child well is to have three or more adults in the family who rotate being at home with the kid.  :-)

That would have been an interesting, practical and humane solution . . John, Mary and Sherlock in a pluralistic domestic arrangement where the strengths of each contribute to the partnership of three and the well-being of Rosie.  Mary had her own skill set besides just the domesticity front, but she would have brought a feminizing touch to the man-cave of Baker Street and could have kept the books and maintained the website and been the office manager of the whole enterprise.  Sherlock's too busy, plus bookkeeping is boring.  John is more organized personally but he types with two fingers and doesn't really seem the Webmaster type.  Had Moffiss elected to go this route, the show could have run on for several more years in a one would have thought lighter-hearted vein.  How bad do I want to see a picaresque episode called 'Uncle Sherly Babysits'?

Obviously Moffatt and Gatiss are far less whimsical than I am and weren't having any of that.  More's the pity--their scripts were *always* at their best in the moments that displayed the lighter, domestic side to the Holmes and Watson partnership.  The same could be said of Conan Doyle.

It's Canon that Mary had to die prematurely, and in this Moftiss were faithful.  Their envisioning of Mary as a top-secret trained assassin for hire and all that meant essentially mashed together the characters of Mary Morstan and Col. Sebastian Moran from the stories.  An uncomfortable blend to say the least,  far from being a helpmeet and opposite number for Sherlock, Moran was his #2 nemesis after Moriarty, and actually the more dangerous of the two given his facility with long-distance air rifles.

Mary's whole existence was meant to be as 'The Woman' for John Watson--the perfect wife and helpmate who was a quintessential Victorian lady, but who also managed to be a bit more than met the eye in terms of her internal resources.  Mofftiss rectified an oversight of Conan Doyle's in envisioning a more meaningful role for Mary in the preceedings but even they only took it so far . . and into a bizarre direction that didn't go far enough, in my opinion.  The Mary of TEH and TSo3 was a cool, witty smart chick in her own right, before we ever had to know she was a killer in a previous life.  I think they erred fatally with their conception of Mary, but only if they intended to keep the show going and/or tethered in something resembling reality.  Obviously they didn't.

  • Like 2
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 36 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of UseWe have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.Privacy PolicyGuidelines.