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Undead Medic

Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"

What did you think of "The Six Thatchers"?  

93 members have voted

  1. 1. Add your vote here:

    • 10/10 Excellent.
    • 9/10 Not quite the best, but not far off.
    • 8/10 Certainly worth watching again.
    • 7/10 Slightly above the norm.
    • 6/10 Average.
    • 5/10 Slightly sub-par.
    • 4/10 Decidedly below average.
    • 3/10 Pretty Poor.
      0
    • 2/10 Bad.
    • 1/10 Awful.


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That was definitely my favorite scene in the whole episode.

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On 10/2/2018 at 12:27 PM, Hikari said:

Mary's whole existence was meant to be as 'The Woman' for John Watson--the perfect wife and helpmate who was a quintessential Victorian lady, but who also managed to be a bit more than met the eye in terms of her internal resources.  Mofftiss rectified an oversight of Conan Doyle's in envisioning a more meaningful role for Mary in the preceedings but even they only took it so far . . and into a bizarre direction that didn't go far enough, in my opinion.  The Mary of TEH and TSo3 was a cool, witty smart chick in her own right, before we ever had to know she was a killer in a previous life.  I think they erred fatally with their conception of Mary, but only if they intended to keep the show going and/or tethered in something resembling reality.  Obviously they didn't.

I think the whole Mary-as-assassin thing started off with ACD canon and then took a turn for the stupid.  I think they wanted to replicate the fact that ACD CAM was dispatched by one of the women he wronged with Holmes watching.  So far, so good.  But instead of stopping there (and then going into the triad relationship where Sherlock has these two friends who will both shoot bad guys he's pursuing), they had to make her into an Amazon.  She's not just a woman - she loves cats, and bakes bread, and has 12 separate identities, and has been freelancing as an assassin for MI6.  See, we write strong female characters!  We do!

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Hey, nice to see you again, Boton!  :welcome:

 

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19 minutes ago, Boton said:

See, we write strong female characters!  We do!

After seeing how they handled  both  Irene and Mary (and now Mrs. Hudson too, though so far that's funny), I'm starting to think they don't know the difference between strong and bizarre.  Molly, who was apparently introduced as basically a doormat, is developing into the sort of strong female character that I enjoy watching -- but that's reportedly due at least in part to Loo Brealey's ideas.

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4 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

After seeing how they handled  both  Irene and Mary (and now Mrs. Hudson too, though so far that's funny), I'm starting to think they don't know the difference between strong and bizarre.  Molly, who was apparently introduced as basically a doormat, is developing into the sort of strong female character that I enjoy watching -- but that's reportedly due at least in part to Loo Brealey's ideas.

Totally agree here.  Molly has become a realistic woman and thus a pleasure to watch.  I think even the ACD Irene was always a little bit of a cliche,  so I don't mind if they turned it up to 11 for this.

But Mary was a complete waste, because, if they didn't do the "die tragically off screen" thing, they could have done anything.  And they went with...assassin.  I would have rather seen John not marry at all, and just gift him with an ex-wife or something who's mentioned once and never heard from again.

I'm actually a little annoyed with Mrs. Hudson.  Yeah, OK, maybe the woman does have a sports car, and maybe she did pay for 221 with drug money.  But the woman I watched for three seasons does not clean house to death metal and hold Sherlock Holmes at gunpoint, even when she's sure he's high.

Actually, come to think of it, are Molly and Janine the only women so far that haven't held someone at gunpoint? Because if that's the Moftiss formula for "strong woman," I think they're setting the bar pretty high.

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5 minutes ago, Boton said:

... are Molly and Janine the only women so far that haven't held someone at gunpoint?

I don't think Connie Prince did -- but then she was dead.

7 minutes ago, Boton said:

... the woman I watched for three seasons does not clean house to death metal and hold Sherlock Holmes at gunpoint,

Agreed regarding the music.  What would her rebel side listen to -- "Rock Around the Clock" and "Don't Be Cruel"?

1 hour ago, Boton said:

I would have rather seen John not marry at all, and just gift him with an ex-wife or something who's mentioned once and never heard from again.

Right -- or who pops up every now and then, played by AA.

My bewilderment is why they did a version of Sign of the Four (not TSo3, which has nothing from the original except a couple of character names -- but rather TBB, which has a good bit of the plot) -- the only Doyle story that features Mary -- without Mary.  (Sarah was Mary-esque, but didn't fit into the plot the same way.)

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13 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:
15 hours ago, Boton said:

... are Molly and Janine the only women so far that haven't held someone at gunpoint?

I don't think Connie Prince did -- but then she was dead.

:rofl:

15 hours ago, Boton said:

I'm actually a little annoyed with Mrs. Hudson.  Yeah, OK, maybe the woman does have a sports car, and maybe she did pay for 221 with drug money.  But the woman I watched for three seasons does not clean house to death metal and hold Sherlock Holmes at gunpoint, even when she's sure he's high.

Aw, I actually rather enjoyed that. She's always been a bit of a flake, and at the same time made of stronger stuff than she looks, imo. I loved seeing that side of her brought to the fore. Although, oddly enough, I thought the car was a bit much … but worth it, just for the joke of seeing her step out of it. :wub:   I think it's possible that TLD is my favorite episode, and I think Mrs. H's role in it is one of the reasons why. 

The longer I live with (or without :() this show the more I realize what I appreciate most about it is the humor. Okay, scratch that … ONE of the things I appreciate most. :D I hope I never forget my reaction when Ben tore that damn scarf off his neck in Scandal; I was half off the couch, screaming (internally) "who IS this guy!"

 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

[Mrs. Hudson has] always been a bit of a flake, and at the same time made of stronger stuff than she looks, imo.

Agreed.  She's even stood up to Mycroft at least twice.  And she's always been a bit mysterious, with her murdering husband.

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Plus, what "normal" person would put up with Sherlock? As everyone seems to be constantly reminding John....

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What they did with Mrs Hudson in series 4 was certainly over the top, but I've got to admit that I enjoyed it. And the car was the only real surprise for me. The music - why not. Holding Sherlock at gunpoint - sure, makes sense, like she says, he isn't her first drug addict and she had to learn how to protect herself. But where has she been hiding that damn car all this time? 

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35 minutes ago, T.o.b.y said:

... where has she been hiding that damn car all this time? 

She lives in central London, so she rarely needs a car -- and judging by how she handles it, rarely drives that one.  Probably enjoys the occasional spin (sometimes literally) in the country plus visits to her sister, and the rest of the time it sits in a high-security garage.

What I want to know is, how did John know where to find it?

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5 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

She lives in central London, so she rarely needs a car -- and judging by how she handles it, rarely drives that one.  Probably enjoys the occasional spin (sometimes literally) in the country plus visits to her sister, and the rest of the time it sits in a high-security garage.

What I want to know is, how did John know where to find it?

I have decided that (offscreen) John asked her the same question Toby just did. :D 

Either that, or it just sits out in the street and John never noticed it. :rolleyes:  Clearly Sherlock knew about the car, or his plan wouldn't have included it. Poor John, always the last to know.... 

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And/or maybe John asked if he could at least sit in it, so she took him to the garage.

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I ran across this quote: https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2017-12-18/amanda-abbington-reveals-details-of-lovely-deleted-sherlock-scene/
 

Quote

 

"There was a really lovely dinner scene with John and Mary, when they have this really lovely talk about how scared she is about being pregnant or having a baby and that they're drifting apart," Abbington told Radio Times.

"It's a lovely three-page dinner scene that we did and we loved it and it never made it, I think because it was running about four hours and they had to get it down to an hour and a half.

"They'd just come back off the plane – or Mary was just about to go off on her journey – and she was just saying that she's flying out of control and she doesn't feel like she's grounded because she's trying to tell him who she really is and she can't and he's drifting off and they're not really communicating.

"It's a really lovely scene but it never made it and I know why because sometimes you don't need that – less is more. But we loved doing it."

 

And it got me to wondering again: early on in TAB, while Sherlock is thinking, John and Mary are shown arguing. Then towards the end, we have John saying he thought he was losing Mary. And in between are a few implications that John is a bit sexist, chucking Mary under the chin and things like that.

Now, all of this is in Sherlock's head: so are we to believe that Sherlock thinks John and Mary argue a lot and are drifting apart, and that John's a bit sexist? (Pot, kettle, black, Sherlock? :D )

But in T6T, I don't see any "drifting apart", until John's little dalliance with "E" is revealed. (Which Sherlock knew nothing about until the end of the next episode. In fact, I was always under the impression that he had a rather idealized view of John and Mary's relationship.) But based on Amanda's remarks above, I'm thinking now that we were supposed to see it. Or at the very least, Mark had it in mind when he wrote the script.

And it seems an odd choice to me; in an episode that's ultimately about John's devastation at Mary's loss, we're supposed to think he was falling out of love with her in the first place. I have to assume some irony is meant, but somehow it just doesn't hold together. For me.

Maybe it's just another example of the "compression" of ideas I think I detect in S4; that six stories were collapsed into three. 

I also wonder if they are condemning John a bit, for expecting Mary to be a certain, decidedly feminine, way, and getting upset with her for turning out to be something else. Which doesn't seem fair to me, because to me the pertinent point is: Mary lied about who she was. That was a huge breach of John's trust; imo, he had every right to be angry with her, just as he did with Sherlock and his lies.

Or is lying considered to be not that big a deal in some circles? My sis and I had a conversation about that once, and we agreed that there's little that makes us angrier than being lied to. But maybe that's just us?

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Let's be honest, neither John or Mary were coventional characters in  a 'normal' relationship...

I think we have to allow a bit of poetic licence, too.

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54 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

And it seems an odd choice to me; in an episode that's ultimately about John's devastation at Mary's loss, we're supposed to think he was falling out of love with her in the first place. I have to assume some irony is meant, but somehow it just doesn't hold together. For me.

It might add to John's feeling of guilt, which is so strong that he projects it on Sherlock. Plus they needed something for John to confess to Sherlock at the end of TLD. And maybe they wanted to introduce Eurus. BTW - do we really needed E for the story development? It actually made Eurus less believable at the end, she had enough creepy talents already.

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

My sis and I [...] agreed that there's little that makes us angrier than being lied to. But maybe that's just us?

Depends on who's lying to me, and about what.  If I'm lied to "for my own good," for example, I'll be indignant.  If i find out that someone has lied to me in order to make themselves "more interesting," I'll be bewildered.  In either case I'll find it very hard to trust that person again.

But I can't think of any time when being lied to has sent me into a screaming rage.  Maybe I've just been lucky.  Or gullible.  Or maybe it depends on what you mean by "angry."

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7 minutes ago, J.P. said:

... do we really needed E for the story development? It actually made Eurus less believable at the end, she had enough creepy talents already.

It does seem that running Sherrinford would be a full-time job!  What she does as E and as Faith, though, is not just fool John and Sherlock, but to actually make fools of them.  Maybe that's what the writers were going for.

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11 hours ago, besleybean said:

I think we have to allow a bit of poetic licence, too.

Oh, of course. But sometimes I like to play Carol's game of making sense of things "In universe."

10 hours ago, J.P. said:

It might add to John's feeling of guilt, which is so strong that he projects it on Sherlock. Plus they needed something for John to confess to Sherlock at the end of TLD. And maybe they wanted to introduce Eurus. BTW - do we really needed E for the story development? It actually made Eurus less believable at the end, she had enough creepy talents already.

I don't know if we "needed" E … I agree that they dropped that storyline like a hot potato once Eurus made herself known. But I kind of like seeing that Eurus is capable of portraying someone like E, it makes her more interesting to me. (If somewhat straining my credulity at the same time. :smile:

I agree about the guilt, though. I've thought that from the start … John's anger is as much (or more) with himself as with Sherlock.

10 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Depends on who's lying to me, and about what.  If I'm lied to "for my own good," for example, I'll be indignant.  If i find out that someone has lied to me in order to make themselves "more interesting," I'll be bewildered.  In either case I'll find it very hard to trust that person again.

But I can't think of any time when being lied to has sent me into a screaming rage.  Maybe I've just been lucky.  Or gullible.  Or maybe it depends on what you mean by "angry."

Well, I don't mean a screaming rage. :smile: Perhaps "deeply annoyed" would convey my feelings better. 

10 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

What she does as E and as Faith, though, is not just fool John and Sherlock, but to actually make fools of them.  Maybe that's what the writers were going for.

That, and showing how scarily smarter (and colder) she is than her siblings, methinks.

I guess I can't decide how much I think TAB matters to the rest of the story. I remember when it came out that some people we're saying that it foreshadowed S4. Or was it that it explained S3? Whatever, I couldn't ever see how they could be so sure about that, and I'm even less sure now that it fits into the overall story line at all. Probably what I need to do is a rewatch.

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16 hours ago, Arcadia said:

My sis and I [...] agreed that there's little that makes us angrier than being lied to.

 

4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Well, I don't mean a screaming rage. :smile: Perhaps "deeply annoyed" would convey my feelings better

 

So "deeply annoyed" is about as angry as you ever get?  How mellow of you!

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1 hour ago, besleybean said:

When were we ever lied to?

Not us, John.  Arcadia was talking about Sherlock and Mary lying to him.

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One thing I still have trouble wrapping my head around this episode is the fact that it started off with a mystery which involved a kid getting burned to his death. That felt too gorey for me. It felt out of place. It didn't look like the initial mystery of the missing kid was anything other than plot device so I saw no need for Mofatiss to make it so dark.

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