Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, besleybean said:

Oh heck I have never had any issue which would see me even getting close to a report button...mind you, I wouldn't let somebody get me that way!

No, this place is Heaven compared to some of my other hang outs...

I just get used to being the holder of the most unpopular views...but at least I know somebody somewhere in the world agrees with me!

I do sometimes find it odd what people will bring to a FAN site(and for me, the clue is in the name!).

As I have said in my other place...if you ain't enjoying it anymore, just stop watching!

Some of us still love it.

I have occasionally taken myself away from a site, for a short period...but would never tell anyone, wouldn't give them the satisfaction!

If it helps any … even when I'm being critical, it's more to do with me and how I react to the show, than it is an actual criticism of the show. If that makes sense, and if you will allow that T6T is the exception that proves the rule.  

I don't usually get this passionate about a TV show, especially not to the extent of discussing (debating? ) it with other people. Part of the joy for me is being able to pick at the little nits with like-minded souls. But it doesn't mean I don't still love the show. Quite the contrary; if I weren't still a fan, I'd go poof and disappear! 

Also I just enjoy a good argument.  

[bedelia1984]

41 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Well, I think that's one of the reasons I have problems with her "lying" … because I can't believe the warm, twinkly, cat-loving Mary we were first introduced to is a self-portrait of someone who kills other people for money. 

I admit, I've mostly gotten around the Mary issue by assuming that when Moftiss uses the word "assassin," it's just for dramatic effect and what they really mean is that she's a heroine for hire. After all, the only thing they show us from her past life is a rescue mission … a far cry from assassination, imo!

It's a tricky one though isn't it? I can see why you would read her assassin-life that based on what they show of her career, and yet the whole business of her and John's residual tension hinges on her past being more seriously a dark secret- something that she withheld that might have cast her in a bad light/ caused John to rethink the marriage.

I always thought her story stemmed from old school Moftiss logic, rooted in HLV, that notion some people out there deserve to be assassinated, and that Mary killed mostly that variety.

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Is that the same as boiling a lobster? I'm not familiar with that analogy, but I assume it means someone being lulled into complacency until it's too late to save themselves?

I don't know … I sort of think John "forgave" Mary in HLV because he thinks that's what a good man is supposed to do (egged on by no less than his hero Sherlock. ) Not that I think he wasn't sincere; I'm pretty sure he was. But  after TLD, I just have to wonder if he talked himself into it because that's the kind of man he thought he wanted to be (forgiving), and not because that's the kind of man he actually is? Which is A-Okay by me, actually, because I like the man he seems to want to be. I think it speaks well of the "real" him that he wants to be that way. Assuming there is actually a difference between the two, which I sort of doubt.

 

Yes exactly, I think it's a way of cooking a frog in France, but that's the concept.🐸

Oh yes Sherlock always taking Mary's side- I do think most of this is Sherlock's innate narcissism- he sees much of himself in Mary, and therefore thinks like himself she is especially deserving of forgiveness and also it's for this reason that he thinks that she will make a good match for John.

After TLD, one does doubt his forgiveness. Though maybe it isn't even about forgiving the lies- it's more the not knowing who she really is any more. Surely the comfort and intimacy of their relationship have to have been affected by her double life- I could see that making John feel quite lonely and lost.

 

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I get this vibe a lot too … that the John we see in S4 is far more guarded and less -- patient? caring? -- than the one we're used to. But I find I don't really mind that much, I still think he's basically a decent guy who's probably too hard on himself for not being perfect.

ETA … and I too feel like he's not been given enough to do, I hope that will change.

 

In general, I don't mind less John because I'm mostly there for Sherlock.

However in terms of the structure of the show, they do start off with John's story of meeting Sherlock, they start with his efforts to find friendship and love, and his loyalty to Sherlock. So to the extent s4 was an ending, there could have been a little more of John's personal journey and where he has settled as a person, just to make teh show feel more whole. I hope there is still time and I do appreciate that some storylines may have been rushed together especially Mary's death, which made it necessary for John to stall a bit.

Also, even though he has a daughter we don't get any impression of the significance of that relationship or even the sort of Dad he is. I feel like we were so much closer to John in the early years, we would have known much more about that side of his life back then.

I would like them to try and re-balance some of this if there's more.

[Arcadia]

14 minutes ago, bedelia1984 said:

It's a tricky one though isn't it? I can see why you would read her assassin-life that based on what they show of her career, and yet the whole business of her and John's residual tension hinges on her past being more seriously a dark secret- something that she withheld that might have cast her in a bad light/ caused John to rethink the marriage.

Well.... frack. You're right. So I'm going to have to perform some more mental gymnastics, wahhhh!  

17 minutes ago, bedelia1984 said:

I always thought her story stemmed from old school Moftiss logic, rooted in HLV, that notion some people out there deserve to be assassinated, and that Mary killed mostly that variety.

And that, I find wholly reprehensible. Hence my above-mentioned mental gymnastics … I have to find a way to explain why I still love a show that offends my core beliefs! Arrrghhhh!

20 minutes ago, bedelia1984 said:

In general, I don't mind less John because I'm mostly there for Sherlock.

Er, eh …. true. But don't let Carol know we think that.  

[Artemis]

The frog-cooking thing: The idea is that if you put a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will jump out.  So you have to put it in cold water, and then slowly turn up the heat, so it won't notice.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I just enjoy a good argument.  

She really does, you know. 

 

[Arcadia]

Hey, I take exception to that! Wanna fight about it?

[Artemis]