Episode 4.1 "The Six Thatchers"

[BLS_Pro]

 

... that's why she came equipped with the means to knock out Sherlock when she met with him.

One of the MANY things which bothered me about this episode is the DIS-service it does to Mary's character.  She is a 'super-agent', as the example above is supposed to indicate.  Yet she always carried evidence on her which must never fall into the enemies hands because it would betray all four of them disasterously?  She isn't smart enough to even check for a tracker in the USB (and thus her ineptitude is turned into a one liner joke I saw coming a mile away and thus turned that long travel sequence into one of TWO parts of the story I just fast-forwarded through because it was boring and the end predictable)?  And when told "It's not over" by sherlock, she doesn't come prepared to defend herself somehow (despite having come prepared to knock Sherlock out earlier)?  And SHE has to be told by SHERLOCK to not step close to Nor because she was about to pull out a gun???

 

REALLY?!?!?!?

 

SO very VERY wrong (like SOOOOOO many other things in the ep) if its NOT all just a trick (and if it is a trick, its a badly written and executed trick).

[Arcadia]

 

I see Sherlock's taunting of Ms. Norbury somewhat different than most of you seem to. I don't think that was his ego at work; I think he was deliberately trying to get her anger focused on him instead of Mary, so in case Norbury did shoot, she'd shoot him. (Being all noble again, the big git.) Mary realized what he was doing, and tried to stop him before he got himself killed; but he was determined to try and take the bullet for her, and kept going. And Mary decided to not let him sacrifice himself for her again.

 

I like that interpretation, though I am not entirely convinced, because of Sherlock saying to Mrs. Hudson that he should never get too arrogant again- which, I don't think he would see that behaviour as predominantly arrogant (but misguided, a failed attempt at trickery) if he'd intended to save Mary through it. I do like the aspect where they are confronting Sherlock's failings, though the method seems so cruel (and either way I still don't blame him). I think there might be a scenario where Mary was determined to have that woman shoot at her (she did start off as the antagonist), and Sherlock spoiled things so she had to step in.

 

Yeah, I was just thinking ... that's sort of the flaw in my argument. But then I remembered ... on first viewing, I thought the arrogance he was referring to was his belief that he could protect Mary. He's not thinking that his arrogance caused her to die, so much, but rather that he was wrong to think he had the power to prevent her death. That was sort of the theme of the episode from the start; once Death comes for you, there's no point in running away. Even if you're Sherlock Holmes.

[BLS_Pro]

 

"I see Sherlock's taunting of Ms. Norbury somewhat different than most of you seem to. I don't think that was his ego at work; I think he was deliberately trying to get her anger focused on him instead of Mary, so in case Norbury did shoot, she'd shoot him. (Being all noble again, the big git.) Mary realized what he was doing, and tried to stop him before he got himself killed; but he was determined to try and take the bullet for her, and kept going. And Mary decided to not let him sacrifice himself for her again."

I watched it again, but I don't see evidence in tone, action, or body language by either of them that this is the case.  :(

 

What I do see is EVERYONE's uncharacteristic thoughtlessness when going off to face woman whom they should NOT have been surprised had a gun.

[Detective]

I don't think this episode was necessarily bad, or actually I do, kind of. It wasn't really bad, wasn't good either. I do think we deserve much better than this though. We've been waiting so long (seriously, season three was in 2014!) and the first episode after this huge pause should have been much more satisfying! I hope the next two episodes will be better than this..

[BLS_Pro]

Another question:

Why was the text to Mary different than the one Sherlock sent at the same time to John?  The one to her was all about acting references.  His, just a summons.

[Arcadia]

2 - There was an exterior shot outside the home where the first bust was smashed (don't remember the name) and there was a beautiful shot of the house reflected in a car. There was the same kind of thing in The Great Game outside Westy's flat. Which seems odd, because isn't this a different director?

Perhaps this director admired that shot so much she decided to use it herself. They do that, y'know. Sort of an homage.

 

 

I see Sherlock's taunting of Ms. Norbury somewhat different than most of you seem to. I don't think that was his ego at work; I think he was deliberately trying to get her anger focused on him instead of Mary, so in case Norbury did shoot, she'd shoot him. (Being all noble again, the big git.)

 

Maybe... I doubt that's what the writers were going for (I'm getting the feeling we're headed for another "pride comes before a fall" storyline) but it's possible.

 

Whatever his motive was, he is not responsible for Mary's death except maybe in a very indirect way, by persuading her and John (mostly John - I don't think she was ever really persuaded) that Mary would be safest near him instead of on her own.

 

Maybe that's why John is so angry (apart from a huge projection of his own personal guilt and unresolved conflict with Mary onto Sherlock): He believed in Sherlock Holmes, as usual. Sherlock promised and he didn't keep that promise. Never mind that it was a ridiculous promise to make, like promising a child sunshine on its birthday.

 

That's my take on it ... John keeps believing in Sherlock, and Sherlock keeps proving he's only human, and that's not what John wants from him. He wants to believe in the hero image he has of Sherlock. - ?????

 

About the next episode, I wonder:

 - Will the fake illness in this version be mental illness? I.e. will Sherlock pretend he's going mad instead of pretending to have a tropical flu?

 - Or will the twist be that he really is quite ill and John just doesn't believe him because he's played too many tricks in the past and just accuses him of putting on a show for attention and getting John to talk to him again? That would be kind of tragically funny.

I think I like that second one.

 

 

"I see Sherlock's taunting of Ms. Norbury somewhat different than most of you seem to. I don't think that was his ego at work; I think he was deliberately trying to get her anger focused on him instead of Mary, so in case Norbury did shoot, she'd shoot him. (Being all noble again, the big git.) Mary realized what he was doing, and tried to stop him before he got himself killed; but he was determined to try and take the bullet for her, and kept going. And Mary decided to not let him sacrifice himself for her again."

I watched it again, but I don't see evidence in tone, action, or body language by either of them that this is the case.  :(

 

Well, the tone, action and body language is exactly what I was basing it on, as well as the chosen camera shots. But it's entirely possible I've got it wrong ... wouldn't be the first time!

[BLS_Pro]

 

Well, the tone, action and body language is exactly what I was basing it on, as well as the chosen camera shots. But it's entirely possible I've got it wrong ... wouldn't be the first time!

If Nor had the gun trained on Mary the entire time he was talking and his talking caused her to change aim, I might agree.  But Sherlock didn't need to diffuse the situation for Mary or need to cause Nor to shift focus from Mary to himself.  Almost immediately, Nor let her gun droop, taking it OFF both of them.  And she did this BEFORE he had spoken a word.  IF he was worried about the weapon and Mary's safety, he could have done SO many OTHER things to turn down the already lessening tension.  In fact, he could have simply let Nor WALK OUT - and let the police catch this obviously NOT 'master criminal' later (right IN the Aquarium, given they were there already and he knew it).

 

IF this was an attempt to protect Mary, it was a STUPID act, not a smart one.  And that just makes Sherlock an idiot (as opposed to self-absorbed and cocky, which is STILL bad writing in this context, but certainly fits what they keep saying is supposedly Sherlock's character.  And fits what Sherlock says about Nor to Mrs H.  IF his intent had been to deflect to him, and he misjudged MARY not NOR, then the comment would be 'Just say Mary'.  In other words, the reference is to WHO surprised him - ie who did he get wrong?  He is saying to Mrs H that he was surprised by Nor, NOT Mary.)

 

 

[J.P.]

Oh, gosh, that fangirling lark is a damn full-time job! It's 11PM again and I'm not even done with first re-watch.

 

Have to admit though that I spent a while at my favorite Polish blogger website - she mentioned someone else' comment that after Mary's death John looks like he is about to turn green and explosively outgrow his clothing.

 

 

And then, there is a flash of Mary's journey that's in Poland. We have a place called Hel (with one L). Someone on Twitter suggested a place called Hell somewhere in Sweden(?) Maybe go to hell is not what it seems to be. :D

[sherlockandjohn]

Sherlock promised and he didn't keep that promise. Never mind that it was a ridiculous promise to make, like promising a child sunshine on its birthday.

 

To me, when Sherlock said over and over again that he'd made a vow and he would keep Mary safe, it didn't sound so much like overconfidence as desperation.

 

Poor Sherlock. I feel quite sorry for him at this point.

 

I do too, he is obviously blaming himself while dealing with his sorrow and with having John shutting him out.

 

I don't remember who made this comment earlier, but I agree with said person that it's strange how Molly delivers John's message to Sherlock. She actually emphasizes "anyone" in that sentense. That could have been left out, imo.

 

Speaking of which, we didn't get to see the written note from John to Sherlock, delivered by Molly, did we? Wonder if we see it in the next episode.

[Fantasy Lover]

 

 

And then, there is a flash of Mary's journey that's in Poland. We have a place called Hel (with one L). Someone on Twitter suggested a place called Hell somewhere in Sweden(?) Maybe go to hell is not what it seems to be. :D

I believe it was Norway.

[BLS_Pro]

Another question:

The 'hippy chick' - is her rose necklace supposed to have some significance, especially in the context of the baby's name?

[Caya]

 

And then, there is a flash of Mary's journey that's in Poland. We have a place called Hel (with one L). Someone on Twitter suggested a place called Hell somewhere in Sweden(?) Maybe go to hell is not what it seems to be. :D

I believe it was Norway.

 

 

There's a Hell in Norway, yes, and several in the US.

 

 

[J.P.]

This is nice:

 

https://vimeo.com/197770277

[BLS_Pro]

 Maybe go to hell is not what it seems to be. :D

 

I agree.  Her words, while presented in a deadly serious tone, do not seem to have the heat of an attack or a rebuke.  Instead they are delivered more as an instruction to Sherlock.

 

[J.P.]

I wonder if there will be any canaries in S4 :D

Houston, we have canaries!

[J.P.]

And the last one for today:

 

 

:P

[Specul8or]

I hope this is the right place for this, but with some sort of Moriarty reprise being dangled I think it's worth mentioning that the Morrocan policeman who shoots Ajay just as they're figuring out Ammo looks an awful lot like you know who.

I didn't notice, and why would Moriarty interfere on Mary's behalf? Although I thought that was a really awkward scene, so it would be nice if it turned out to be more than just a random policeman turning up at the "right" moment.

 

 

I think it's been signalled in the writing in a couple of ways.

 

1. Have a look at my profile pic - it's a grab of the policeman. If you have the show on PVR go back and have another look. It's the eyebrows that do it for me - but then I suppose it is Morocco.

2. The policeman arrives on his own and just shoots taking one look at the scene. No showed warnings, not a single word, just taking a shot at a standoff. There are already two guns on Ajay. 

3. Sherlock draws attention to the missing six years and asks exactly what did he hear during this time. Ajay responds with his tale of being tortured for six years and hearing them break the back of Alex of the AGRA team which is portrayed as a shadow. No real explanation is given for the six years of captivity other than torturning Ajay for fun, feeding him a line about the English woman and then forgetting about him which allows his escape.

4. "Moriarty" is not acting to save Mary. He is preventing Ajay from talking at length about his captivity. Perhaps there is more to it than meets the eye.

5. Is it possible that "Moriarty" is either Alex from AGRA or connected to his somehow? We never see his face. A memory of someone being tortured rendered as a shadow seems to me to be a way of suggesting that events might not have transpired as Ajay thinks he experienced them.

 

I know some of these are a bit of a stretch, but I'm expecting to see Moriarty threaded through this season as is Sherlock. I think these might be fingerprints for this episode.

[Surelock]

 

 

Well, the tone, action and body language is exactly what I was basing it on, as well as the chosen camera shots. But it's entirely possible I've got it wrong ... wouldn't be the first time!

If Nor had the gun trained on Mary the entire time he was talking and his talking caused her to change aim, I might agree.  But Sherlock didn't need to diffuse the situation for Mary or need to cause Nor to shift focus from Mary to himself.  Almost immediately, Nor let her gun droop, taking it OFF both of them.  And she did this BEFORE he had spoken a word.  IF he was worried about the weapon and Mary's safety, he could have done SO many OTHER things to turn down the already lessening tension.  In fact, he could have simply let Nor WALK OUT - and let the police catch this obviously NOT 'master criminal' later (right IN the Aquarium, given they were there already and he knew it).

 

IF this was an attempt to protect Mary, it was a STUPID act, not a smart one.  And that just makes Sherlock an idiot (as opposed to self-absorbed and cocky, which is STILL bad writing in this context, but certainly fits what they keep saying is supposedly Sherlock's character.  And fits what Sherlock says about Nor to Mrs H.  IF his intent had been to deflect to him, and he misjudged MARY not NOR, then the comment would be 'Just say Mary'.  In other words, the reference is to WHO surprised him - ie who did he get wrong?  He is saying to Mrs H that he was surprised by Nor, NOT Mary.)

 

 

 

 

Also traditionally Sherlock has kept his mouth shut when his opponents had a gun. In Season 1, when Moriarty had his snipers point their guns at him and John, Sherlock kept his mouth shut. In Season 2, when those US agents had their guns pointed at him, Irene and John, Sherlock kept his mouth shut. Sherlock has never tried to be arrogant when his opponent had a gun. However he decides to do so in Season 4 and that's so out of character and inconsistent of him.

 

I think Moffat and Gatiss may have forgotten what they wrote in the earlier episodes due to the long gaps between each season.

[BLS_Pro]

 

 

Well, the tone, action and body language is exactly what I was basing it on, as well as the chosen camera shots. But it's entirely possible I've got it wrong ... wouldn't be the first time!

If Nor had the gun trained on Mary the entire time he was talking and his talking caused her to change aim, I might agree.  But Sherlock didn't need to diffuse the situation for Mary or need to cause Nor to shift focus from Mary to himself.  Almost immediately, Nor let her gun droop, taking it OFF both of them.  And she did this BEFORE he had spoken a word.  IF he was worried about the weapon and Mary's safety, he could have done SO many OTHER things to turn down the already lessening tension.  In fact, he could have simply let Nor WALK OUT - and let the police catch this obviously NOT 'master criminal' later (right IN the Aquarium, given they were there already and he knew it).

 

IF this was an attempt to protect Mary, it was a STUPID act, not a smart one.  And that just makes Sherlock an idiot (as opposed to self-absorbed and cocky, which is STILL bad writing in this context, but certainly fits what they keep saying is supposedly Sherlock's character.  And fits what Sherlock says about Nor to Mrs H.  IF his intent had been to deflect to him, and he misjudged MARY not NOR, then the comment would be 'Just say Mary'.  In other words, the reference is to WHO surprised him - ie who did he get wrong?  He is saying to Mrs H that he was surprised by Nor, NOT Mary.)

 

From the Behind The Scenes video (around 15:30), Moffat confirms this while speaking of the scene:

 

"There's a real moment of Sherlock facing his own worst enemy - and obviously Sherlock's own worst enemy is himself - is that he can't stop himself from making a series of damaging, hurtful deductions..."

 

Moments later Gatiss states:

 

"We've been here before with him, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. But now it has literally fatal consequences."  He goes on to say that its related to a Sherlock story set in Norbury where he "gets everything wrong".  And so, Gatiss states, in this story he "literally made Norbury flesh".

 

In other words, Moffat and Gatiss explicitly state their intent is that Sherlock is simply being his 'self-absorbed and cocky self' and that his uncontrolled and unintentional behavior leads to the tragedy.  

 

His attack on Nor was NOT a calculated act to save Mary, but an act Sherlock was 'helpless' to stop (despite Mary warning him twice) and heedless as to the effect it would have on Nor (and subsequently on himself or Mary).  He wasn't trying to goad Nor into shooting HIM rather than Mary.  He simply misread Nor completely.  He "got her wrong".

 

[BLS_Pro]

 

 that's so out of character and inconsistent of him.

There are SO many out of character inconsistencies throughout this episode that they hurt the story and the characters immensely.  That is why I am wondering what 'tricks' are being hidden from us to supposedly explain them.

 

Either way though, be it trickery or ineptitude, this episode has ASTONISHINGLY bad writing.  I've always disliked Gatiss' episodes as the weakest/worst of each season.  But the depths to which this has sunk are truly awful.

 

[Arcadia]

Bits and pieces of comments from the cast and crew, scattered throughout several articles/reviews.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/sherlock-shock-cast-creators-season-190337813.html

 

http://deadline.com/2016/12/sherlock-season-4-benedict-cumberbatch-interview-1201876325/ (Turns out the scene with the dog doing nothing was written on set, because the dog was doing nothing... :D )

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/sherlock-stars-writers-discuss-season-4-opener-959565

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/benedict-cumberbatch-is-directly-related-to-sherlock-holmes-author-sir-arthur-conan-doyle/ Apparently Benedict is a very distant cousin of ACD.

[BLS_Pro]

(Turns out the scene with the dog doing nothing was written on set, because the dog was doing nothing... :D )

 

 

I can absolutely believe that.  Plot-wise it certainly seemed out of place.

 

[bedelia1984]

 

I don't remember who made this comment earlier, but I agree with said person that it's strange how Molly delivers John's message to Sherlock. She actually emphasizes "anyone" in that sentense. That could have been left out, imo.

 

Speaking of which, we didn't get to see the written note from John to Sherlock, delivered by Molly, did we? Wonder if we see it in the next episode.

 

 

I was one of those that found it really odd! To me, what was odd was that Molly would choose to pass that along, in that manner to Sherlock, as I would have thought she would want to save him the hurt. It felt like the writers were really laying it on thick how terrible Sherlock has it not- like 'oh look, even Molly who was so loyal despises you now...' (and if that truly is it, then I think another out of character suggestion could be made here)

 

I wasn't sure whether she was saying it to wound him, or to make sure he knows how serious the rift really is or as some kind of hint to him as to who else he should send (Mycroft???) ? I would like to think Molly is acting as a go between to support John out of concern for them both, but I would hate to see her choose John's side over Sherlock. My best guess is that she's taking it upon herself to be the one looking out for Rosamund- because of Molly's well-established heart-of-gold.

 

I did worry when Mary and John both made the point that Molly would be left at home with the baby, because I saw a kidnapping on the cards with Molly left wounded/ dead. And I still couldn't rule that out as a future possibility, if she is left with the baby. Really, a baby in this world is now a liability, especially now she has no assassin mother to protect her. How can Moftiss play the 'Everyone he cares about is in danger' card now, without including the baby?

 

If the baby disappears this season I would call it that Mary has faked her death and taken her. Which would promptly place Sherlock and John back on the same side, and rid them of the plot obstacle of the baby.

What I do see is EVERYONE's uncharacteristic thoughtlessness when going off to face woman whom they should NOT have been surprised had a gun.

 

 

Seriously, and she was there brandishing her giant, gun-sized handbag on her lap the whole time too.

 

And about the hulk comparison- I agree, it was OTT for me. I think smaller would have worked better. Though I could say that about so many things in the episode.

 

 

[Brynwellyn]

Hello, everyone. I'm new on here. Did anyone else notice that the lady on the bus already had the note in her hand while she was sitting on the bus and was looking down at it like it had something written on it. She was there on purpose and pretended to write something on the note before giving it to John. He thinks he's texting her but is probably texting someone else- possibly something to do with Moriarty's plan or the new villain played by Toby Jones.

[Caya]

Hi Brynwellyn and welcome to the forum!

 

Good catch, that one.