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Episode 4.2 "The Lying Detective"


Undead Medic
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What Did You Think Of "The Lying Detective"?  

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    • 10/10 Excellent.
    • 9/10 Not quite the best, but not far off.
    • 8/10 Certainly worth watching again.
    • 7/10 Slightly above the norm.
    • 6/10 Average.
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    • 5/10 Slightly sub-par.
    • 4/10 Decidedly below average.
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Rant warning. 

 

Okay, I haven't read anyone else's comments yet, and normally I like to mull things over before discussing it (I still haven't ventured into the episode one thread yet) but I have to comment on this episode because it really, truly bothered me. I'm normally not really bothered or affected by stuff on TV, but I found this really sick, and wrong, and horrific. And not for any of the reasons we were meant to find it disturbing. Despite all of the bluster about how Culverton was 'the worse villain yet' and how Toby Jones was 'terrifying' I didn't feel much about him one way or the other. The big reveal at the end about the sister, I felt a case of mild surprise, but that was it. 

 

No, what bothered me, what I think they completely misjudged and has left me with a sick feeling in my stomach, is the relationship between Sherlock and John. That beating scene in particular... I'm not sure I can even express how not okay I am with that. It was like witnessing some horrific domestic violence incident and the wife looking up at the end and saying 'it's okay, I deserved it.' They have made that whole relationship into something so toxic and so warped, and if it was addressed properly maybe I could accept it, but it's not! It's shrugged off, like oh they're guys, sometimes guys fight, it's fine. NO, IT IS NOT FINE. Something like that is never FINE. I would be okay with the first slap, I do think Sherlock needed something to try to snap him out of the track he was stuck on with the scalpel. I could maybe even accept the first punch. But the punches after that? The kicks? The way John kept slamming him into the wall before he dropped? The way that Sherlock looked up, with blood streaming down his face, and John put the verbal boot in too and acted like everything he'd done was fine? It really sickens me. The only hint we get that John even has the slightest inkling he's done something bad is when he says to Greg that he hit him hard. God. And I know Sherlock was trying to get John to 'save him' but I don't think even he expected something like that. He probably thought there might be a punch or two thrown, but nothing as violent as what happens here. When he first gets slammed into the wall he looks alarmed and scared, like even in his drug addled state he knows things are about to get bad.  

 

Which brings me to my other issues about it, that it's obvious to everyone what happened, what John did, that it wasn't a quick punch out of a flash of rage but a sustained attack - and no one seems all that bothered. Greg doesn't call him out on it. Mycroft clearly doesn't care. Hell, Culverton looks more bothered when he's watching it happening than Greg does when he's hearing about it. It's the epitome of an abusive relationship and EVERYONE ACCEPTS IT.

 

And what really, really makes me feel sick is how Sherlock accepts it, and his entire psyche in this episode. Not only is he willing to 'go into hell' and literally almost overdose himself to try to get John's attention, to 'save him', to make amends for something he didn't do, but no one even attempts to help him. He's falling to pieces, the only person who even seems to remotely care is Mrs Hudson, and she does the worst thing possible by taking him to John. 

 

These people need to be split up - Sherlock is not blameless, he's done some bad sh*t in the past, but John has warped into the worse kind of abusive friend. He doesn't seem concerned Sherlock is literally dying before his eyes, no he uses it as an excuse to lay into him. Even later, he never accepts it was messed up, never apologises - no, he's too busy apologising to his hallucination of his dead wife about texting another woman rather than his 'best friend' whom he beat the sh*t out of. Sherlock and John need to be kept apart - this is not a healthy relationship for anyone, and the way it's written, the way it's shrugged off and ignored, it repulses me. There comes a point you, as a friend (meaning Sherlock), have to walk away, and if you're too messed up to do that and get stuck in a cycle like this then other people have to step in and break it. I tuned in to watch something I expected to be dark, a bit violent, and if anyone else had attacked Sherlock like that it would be okay. Hell, if John apologised or Sherlock defended himself it would be okay. But the twisted emotional component behind it, the way Sherlock doesn't fight back, accepts he 'deserves it.' I just... I don't feel I can even convey just how much that bothers me.

 

I'm lucky enough I didn't grow up around that kind of violence, I've never had to experience it first hand, but I wouldn't be surprised if a hell of a lot of people who have been victims or experienced domestic violence were triggered by it. It's not what was expected, it's the worst kind of not okay. 

I feel like I stumbled across some sick fic on Ao3, (which I know to be wary of because 'here be dragons'), in fact I've actually read something fairly similar in the past and even that was addressed more healthily than the episode was. 

 

The other thing that bothers me, which I would imagine most people either didn't notice or shrugged off, is the whole Irene Adler conversation, where John tries to cajole Sherlock into texting her back and having a relationship. Bear with me on this one. Now personally I've always viewed Sherlock as either gay or asexual (or a mix of both). Not everyone agrees with that, everyone has their own views and opinions on it, and that's fine. But I think what everyone can agree with is that Sherlock is not someone who is ever going to find a nice girl, settle down and start a family. He clearly isn't wired like everyone else, doesn't feel or view things the same way, and THAT IS OKAY. John knows that about him, has told him from the start that 'it's all fine.' Suddenly there is this pressure to be like everyone else. I know I brought a lot of my personal feelings into this little scene, that was meant to be throw away, but it also disturbed me to the point I thought if Sherlock suddenly admitted he had had a relationship with Irene, or that he would text her back in an attempt to start something, I don't know if I could accept it. I've always appreciated that Sherlock is Sherlock without needing to have a romantic interest, with his sexuality being kept ambiguous, and if that suddenly switched up and had him being a perfectly square, 'normal' heterosexual character it would really bother me. I can only imagine how gay people may have felt watching that scene, the entire opinion on Sherlock's sexuality has always been set by John from the first episode with his statement of 'everything is fine,' but now, because he's lost his wife, he's pressuring Sherlock into something, and for a horrible, horrible moment I thought it would happen. Again, to a lot of people watching that was scene was nothing, perhaps just friendly teasing, but I hated it almost as much as I hated the beating. Possibly not for what actually happened in it, but for the implication Sherlock would be 'better' if was involved with someone, that he wasn't 'whole' being alone, and that he 'should' text her back with the aim of instigating something. Luckily, though he said he had texted her, it didn't get into that, was left ambiguous, and for that I am thankful. 

 

I'm sure there is plenty more I want to say about other parts of this episode, and I still want to comment on episode one, but I woke up really, really needing to get all that off my chest. I haven't read the other comments yet, so perhaps everyone else had a totally different reaction to it, but there is my feelings on the matter. Perhaps my views will change on a second viewing, perhaps they won't. 

 

So, apologies for the long post, apologies for the slight stream-of-consciousness element of it, and congratulations Moftiss, you have finally succeeded in destroying the spirit of a friendship that has been unbreakable for over a hundred years. Even if John does move back into Baker Street eventually, they do start going on 'normal' cases again, you can never erase the fact that John is a guy messed up enough that he thinks beating his best mate to a pulp is fine, nor the fact that Sherlock is messed up enough to accept it as his due. It's sickening. 

 

 

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Rant warning.

 

Okay, I haven't read anyone else's comments yet, and normally I like to mull things over before discussing it (I still haven't ventured into the episode one thread yet) but I have to comment on this episode because it really, truly bothered me. I'm normally not really bothered or affected by stuff on TV, but I found this really sick, and wrong, and horrific. And not for any of the reasons we were meant to find it disturbing. Despite all of the bluster about how Culverton was 'the worse villain yet' and how Toby Jones was 'terrifying' I didn't feel much about him one way or the other. The big reveal at the end about the sister, I felt a case of mild surprise, but that was it.

 

No, what bothered me, what I think they completely misjudged and has left me with a sick feeling in my stomach, is the relationship between Sherlock and John. That beating scene in particular... I'm not sure I can even express how not okay I am with that. It was like witnessing some horrific domestic violence incident and the wife looking up at the end and saying 'it's okay, I deserved it.' They have made that whole relationship into something so toxic and so warped, and if it was addressed properly maybe I could accept it, but it's not! It's shrugged off, like oh they're guys, sometimes guys fight, it's fine. NO, IT IS NOT FINE. Something like that is never FINE. I would be okay with the first slap, I do think Sherlock needed something to try to snap him out of the track he was stuck on with the scalpel. I could maybe even accept the first punch. But the punches after that? The kicks? The way John kept slamming him into the wall before he dropped? The way that Sherlock looked up, with blood streaming down his face, and John put the verbal boot in too and acted like everything he'd done was fine? It really sickens me. The only hint we get that John even has the slightest inkling he's done something bad is when he says to Greg that he hit him hard. God. And I know Sherlock was trying to get John to 'save him' but I don't think even he expected something like that. He probably thought there might be a punch or two thrown, but nothing as violent as what happens here. When he first gets slammed into the wall he looks alarmed and scared, like even in his drug addled state he knows things are about to get bad.

 

Which brings me to my other issues about it, that it's obvious to everyone what happened, what John did, that it wasn't a quick punch out of a flash of rage but a sustained attack - and no one seems all that bothered. Greg doesn't call him out on it. Mycroft clearly doesn't care. Hell, Culverton looks more bothered when he's watching it happening than Greg does when he's hearing about it. It's the epitome of an abusive relationship and EVERYONE ACCEPTS IT.

 

And what really, really makes me feel sick is how Sherlock accepts it, and his entire psyche in this episode. Not only is he willing to 'go into hell' and literally almost overdose himself to try to get John's attention, to 'save him', to make amends for something he didn't do, but no one even attempts to help him. He's falling to pieces, the only person who even seems to remotely care is Mrs Hudson, and she does the worst thing possible by taking him to John.

 

These people need to be split up - Sherlock is not blameless, he's done some bad sh*t in the past, but John has warped into the worse kind of abusive friend. He doesn't seem concerned Sherlock is literally dying before his eyes, no he uses it as an excuse to lay into him. Even later, he never accepts it was messed up, never apologises - no, he's too busy apologising to his hallucination of his dead wife about texting another woman rather than his 'best friend' whom he beat the sh*t out of. Sherlock and John need to be kept apart - this is not a healthy relationship for anyone, and the way it's written, the way it's shrugged off and ignored, it repulses me. There comes a point you, as a friend (meaning Sherlock), have to walk away, and if you're too messed up to do that and get stuck in a cycle like this then other people have to step in and break it. I tuned in to watch something I expected to be dark, a bit violent, and if anyone else had attacked Sherlock like that it would be okay. Hell, if John apologised or Sherlock defended himself it would be okay. But the twisted emotional component behind it, the way Sherlock doesn't fight back, accepts he 'deserves it.' I just... I don't feel I can even convey just how much that bothers me.

 

I'm lucky enough I didn't grow up around that kind of violence, I've never had to experience it first hand, but I wouldn't be surprised if a hell of a lot of people who have been victims or experienced domestic violence were triggered by it. It's not what was expected, it's the worst kind of not okay.

I feel like I stumbled across some sick fic on Ao3, (which I know to be wary of because 'here be dragons'), in fact I've actually read something fairly similar in the past and even that was addressed more healthily than the episode was.

 

The other thing that bothers me, which I would imagine most people either didn't notice or shrugged off, is the whole Irene Adler conversation, where John tries to cajole Sherlock into texting her back and having a relationship. Bear with me on this one. Now personally I've always viewed Sherlock as either gay or asexual (or a mix of both). Not everyone agrees with that, everyone has their own views and opinions on it, and that's fine. But I think what everyone can agree with is that Sherlock is not someone who is ever going to find a nice girl, settle down and start a family. He clearly isn't wired like everyone else, doesn't feel or view things the same way, and THAT IS OKAY. John knows that about him, has told him from the start that 'it's all fine.' Suddenly there is this pressure to be like everyone else. I know I brought a lot of my personal feelings into this little scene, that was meant to be throw away, but it also disturbed me to the point I thought if Sherlock suddenly admitted he had had a relationship with Irene, or that he would text her back in an attempt to start something, I don't know if I could accept it. I've always appreciated that Sherlock is Sherlock without needing to have a romantic interest, with his sexuality being kept ambiguous, and if that suddenly switched up and had him being a perfectly square, 'normal' heterosexual character it would really bother me. I can only imagine how gay people may have felt watching that scene, the entire opinion on Sherlock's sexuality has always been set by John from the first episode with his statement of 'everything is fine,' but now, because he's lost his wife, he's pressuring Sherlock into something, and for a horrible, horrible moment I thought it would happen. Again, to a lot of people watching that was scene was nothing, perhaps just friendly teasing, but I hated it almost as much as I hated the beating. Possibly not for what actually happened in it, but for the implication Sherlock would be 'better' if was involved with someone, that he wasn't 'whole' being alone, and that he 'should' text her back with the aim of instigating something. Luckily, though he said he had texted her, it didn't get into that, was left ambiguous, and for that I am thankful.

 

I'm sure there is plenty more I want to say about other parts of this episode, and I still want to comment on episode one, but I woke up really, really needing to get all that off my chest. I haven't read the other comments yet, so perhaps everyone else had a totally different reaction to it, but there is my feelings on the matter. Perhaps my views will change on a second viewing, perhaps they won't.

 

So, apologies for the long post, apologies for the slight stream-of-consciousness element of it, and congratulations Moftiss, you have finally succeeded in destroying the spirit of a friendship that has been unbreakable for over a hundred years. Even if John does move back into Baker Street eventually, they do start going on 'normal' cases again, you can never erase the fact that John is a guy messed up enough that he thinks beating his best mate to a pulp is fine, nor the fact that Sherlock is messed up enough to accept it as his due. It's sickening.

If you like, I can write a longer reply to this tonight, just wanted you to know someone read it and you do sound quite upset - understandably so!

 

I agree that the boys' relationship is pretty warped at this point. I was actually thinking last night about how it has come to a point where it could be called abusive.

 

This affects me in a different way because I see it from a perspective that has very little to do with reality, but you have every right to feel this differently and be upset.

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Well...wow.  A lot to process in this episode.  First of all though, I honestly loved it.  I watched with a grin on my face (hate to have seen my expression while watching the previous one lol).  

 

I loved Sherlock in this one, loved his deductions, his personality, his brilliance, his humour.  Glad to see it all back. 

 

I thought Culverton Smith was a good villain, I thought his reveal that he wanted to kill "anyone" was really creepy.  

 

I hated that for one split second, I thought Mary was actually alive and I was ready to turn off the TV!   I felt so relieved when I realized she wasn't really there, but still thought they over used her in this episode.  Let's move on already.  Actually didn't she say something like that to John "Time to get on with it" or something to the effect of its time to move on....I hope we move on from Mary now.  

 

Also a bit let down that the 3rd Holmes is a sister.  They already made John's sibling "Harry" a woman, why do the same reverse again?  But I hope they at least go somewhere interesting with her. 

 

What's this?? Is Mycroft considering a relationship (or even just a physical encounter) with Lady Smallwood?  Wow.  

 

As to John beating Sherlock, Pseudonym, I see your point but I didn't find it as bothersome.  Sure John went overboard, but we have seen in past episodes that Sherlock can FIGHT.  I think it would bother me if Sherlock were somehow defenseless or weak, but the fact that we know he can fight back kind of lessens the emotional harm for me.   Sherlock's body is only a vehicle for a brain after all, wounds heal....but his friend needs to let out a lot of guilt and anger and rage.  Seems that is how their relationship works, Sherlock pummels John emotionally and John pummels Sherlock physically lol.    I don't find their relationship toxic though.  I see this as the laying the foundation for that more relaxed and trusted relationship they grow into in the future.  

 

Sherlock comforting John...actually gave me a lump in my throat.  

 

I can't wait to re-watch this one.  I really can't wait. 

 

Last episode I was thinking this show had lost its way.  What a difference an episode makes.  I feel excited again. Sorry Moftiss!  All is forgiven.  :applause:

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If you like, I can write a longer reply to this tonight, just wanted you to know someone read it and you do sound quite upset - understandably so!

 

I agree that the boys' relationship is pretty warped at this point. I was actually thinking last night about how it has come to a point where it could be called abusive.

 

This affects me in a different way because I see it from a perspective that has very little to do with reality, but you have every right to feel this differently and be upset.

 

 

Ok ta. 

Reading everyone else's comments I feel like I watched an entirely different show. It's actually weird it did bother me so much because I'm kind of infamous in my family for not being disturbed by anything I watch on TV (documentaries notwithstanding), whilst my mother has to regularly turn things off because they bother her. 

I don't know what it was about this since I know it's not real. Perhaps it reminded me of something I've seen or something, but I still feel physically sick thinking about it. 

 

 

As to John beating Sherlock, Pseudonym, I see your point but I didn't find it as bothersome.  Sure John went overboard, but we have seen in past episodes that Sherlock can FIGHT.  I think it would bother me if Sherlock were somehow defenseless or weak, but the fact that we know he can fight back kind of lessens the emotional harm for me.   Sherlock's body is only a vehicle for a brain after all, wounds heal....but his friend needs to let out a lot of guilt and anger and rage.  Seems that is how their relationship works, Sherlock pummels John emotionally and John pummels Sherlock physically lol.    I don't find their relationship toxic though.  I see this as the laying the foundation for that more relaxed and trusted relationship they grow into in the future.  

 

 

That's part of what bothers me though. That he can fight back, he is perfectly capable of doing so, but he doesn't. He lets it happen, is willing to let John carry on if he wants to, because he feels he's deserved it. That's just so screwed in the head. 

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I don't necessarily think Sherlock allows it because he thinks he deserves it though...I think he knows its really not about him at all.  But I don't want you to think I am arguing with you, your take is interesting and I hope to hear more about it.

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So this popped up on Twitter.  I'm not going to call it a spoiler since it is speculation.

 

  https://twitter.com/BakerStBabes/status/818402146186051584

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Wow, so much to respond to!!! And I can't do much, I have a full day. :(

 

But first ... Pseud, I completely agree with your feelings about the beating, and that may have been the hardest scene I've ever had to watch on this show. But a couple of things ... I think that line of Sherlock's about Mary's death giving his life value is very telling. We've noticed before that Sherlock himself doesn't seem to place much value on his own wellbeing, haven't we? On some twisted level, he's never thought he was worthy of being treated like a human being.

 

I think this was just the most visceral expression of that; and I expect we'll see he's learned to expect more for himself from this point on. Because that's what this season's mostly been about so far, I think ... Sherlock learning that he's not superhuman, and never can be ... and that it's okay. (Even Mycroft at the end is thinking about forging a friendship, which I NEVER expected! :D)

 

And also, John and Sherlock never been entirely good for each other. Getting high on solving crimes? That's not exactly a healthy way of looking at it, but that seems to have been what both of them were mostly in it for. (Now I finally understand why Moftiss insisted John was an adrenaline junkie.) I suspect now we'll see (if there are any more series after this one) them solving crimes more for the right reasons; to right wrongs, comfort the afflicted, etc.

 

So that's why I think that scene was in there, although I agree it went too far. And unlike most people, it seems, I don't want to see John moving back into Baker Street anytime soon. I think those two need to learn to live their own lives first ... deserve to, actually. And I think they've amply demonstrated that it's possible for John to raise a child and still spend plenty of time with Sherlock .... enough time to go on cases and celebrate each other's birthdays and just hang out. But I also think they need some time apart from each other so they can get on with their own lives.

 

PS ... My latest prediction ... the reason this is the last one "for awhile" is because they'll borrow from the ending of Seven Percent Solution. Go look it up if you want to know what I'm referring to. ;)

 

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One more little thing, quickly:

 

PBS did crazy credits with this episode as well.  It took the re-watch to be able to get it written down: Once more into the breach.  I'm assuming that means 1 more episode this series.  Can't wait until next week.

 

Possibly, but it's also the opening line from the Henry V speech that Sherlock was quoting while he was waving his gun around. This is the same speech that ends with the line "The game's afoot."

 

I love this show. :wub:

 

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Yes - wow!

 

That was a hell of an episode. Puzzling, brutal, shocking and grimly funny. I particularly enjoyed Mrs Hudson"s role. The writers might need calling to account for some of their female characters but they've created an icon for older women in Mrs H. I love her.

 

As for John.... This incarnation of Dr Watson had always been different from the selflessly loyal and honourable Watson created by ACD. The character development in the last series - the concerns which some of us felt about the way the character was evolving - reached its logical conclusion in John's attack on Sherlock. We knew already that John had a lot of pent- up rage and a capacity for violence, and that he was self- centred in some ways (turning a blinds eye to Mary's past to save his marriage, blaming Sherlock for her death), but hopefully now his redemption will begin. As for Sherlock, it's always been clear that he suffers from low self esteem, beneath that arrogant façade. He seems to think it is okay for people to hurt him. What sort of childhood must he have had?

 

Culverton Smith made me think of the late Jimmy Savile, a monster who hid in plain sight. The scene where he boasts that he can go anywhere in the hospital and brandishes the keys given to him at an awards ceremony - surely that was drawn straight from the revelations about Savile's crimes. Made me shudder.

Edited by Undead Medic
Corrected autocorrect! :)
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Okay, are you sure Mofftiss isn't on this forum?

Was I the only one constantly thinking they used some of our ideas and thoughts?

I wouldn't be surprised.
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John should have recognized the therapist as the bus woman immediately.  I didn't buy that for a second.  And I don't buy that Sherlock didn't recognize his own sister (in the form of the therapist) even in his somewhat drug addled state (perhaps his sister is where the 'premonitions' in the first episode came from though?  Her hand in things - or her appearance somewhere we weren't shown or didn't notice).

John can hardly tell ppl apart. He didn't recognize that the woman who brought him to the meeting with Irene in ASIB wasn't Anthea.

 

Sherlock probably doesn't know he has a sister (twin?)

Or he thinks she's long dead.

He haven't seen her as an adult person, so he cannot recognize her.

And he cannot deduce her properly, not only because he's high, but also because she's better then both of him and Myc. Also she might be the real sociopath, and Sherlock just picked up the term in his childhood from the adult's conversations about E.

 

There is a very good observation online: If E is the East Wind, what a creepy way is for Mycroft to torment his little brother.

 

If E is a true sociopath, then Myc is the high functioning sociopath and Sherlock - the only emotionally normal (albeit a bit of a genius) person in this trio. He's just totally messed up by how Mycroft have raised him - even if it "came from a place of love".

 

Still don't like the COINCIDENCE that the ONE woman John 'cheated' with was the Sister.  That is bad writing.

It wasn't a coincidence. She was after him. She knows him somehow or can deduce what he likes.

 

PBS did crazy credits with this episode as well.  It took the re-watch to be able to get it written down: Once more into the breach.  I'm assuming that means 1 more episode this series.  Can't wait until next week.

This is actually a clue. That line is from Henry V. Here is more about it

http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=7222

Sorry for cheating, but it's 3:30 PM already and I didn't even started to write my own thoughts.

 

Now personally I've always viewed Sherlock as either gay or asexual (or a mix of both). Not everyone agrees with that, everyone has their own views and opinions on it, and that's fine. But I think what everyone can agree with is that Sherlock is not someone who is ever going to find a nice girl, settle down and start a family

 

It's not about love affair in the traditional way. Surely not. She is actually gay, remember? And not a person to settle down and have a family with. They could meet and play escape games. Or cluedo. Or have text-sex on their phones. :D

 

We've noticed before that Sherlock himself doesn't seem to place much value on his own wellbeing, haven't we? On some twisted level, he's never thought he was worthy of being treated like a human being.

This. He might also feel an enormous guilt for not being able to safe Mary. Plus, it reminds me of TSOT - and the way he trew himself into his role of the Best Man, up to a level of self-abandonment.

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I like the idea that maybe this had to happen, that John and Sherlock's relationship had to hit this low point in order to improve and evolve into something better and healthier, for John's redemption as Slithy said, and I hope that's right. The way it is ignored and not dealt with later doesn't give me much confidence though, John's not going to learn from it because he doesn't feel he did anything wrong, and Sherlock... the point about his low self esteem, and not being worthy of being treated well, I think that's exactly it, he's never going to be angry about it because he doesn't seem to expect to be treated any better. 

 

The Savile hospital point is pretty chilling. 

 

I keep thinking there's something weird about Wiggins, were it not for the fact John encountered him in the crack den last season I'd think he was a hallucination of Sherlock's.

 

Oh and I loved the window/noteboard scene. And I agree with the earlier speculation that the sister did something disturbing to Redbeard that meant be had to be put down. Always thought it was a bit weird Sherlock would be that hung up over the whole thing if the dog was just put down due to old age or disease. 

 

The point was made again in the last episode that it's never twins. Do you think the sister might be Sherlock's twin? 

 

 

Edit:

Oops, cross post, I see the twins point has been bandied around before?

 

Also wanted to add, to Arcadia's point about them living together  - I don't want John anywhere near Baker Street right now, I certainly don't want them living together anytime soon. I can pretty easily see that deteriorating into something even more emotionally destructive than it is now. 

 

Also, where was Rosie all episode? Since John seemingly has no friends, and Mrs H and Molly were both at the therapists with John and Sherlock where was Rosie?

 

And Irene, it's not that I'm saying him and Irene would settle down together, I'm saying Sherlock clearly just isn't interested in being involved like that. And John knows that. 

If Sherlock was though... he's an attractive, intelligent bloke who can read other people's wants and needs just by looking at them, he'd be lethal ;)

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More about the Water motif relating to Death.  I wonder if it somehow is related to Mycroft as well, given the meaning of his name:

"Mycroft is an English last name too. It comes from the Old English roots mýðe, literally meaning 'mouth of the stream', or mype, meaning 'the function of water', and croft, meaning 'an enclosed, small field'. It basically means farming with water."

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Well, last night caused a realization.  As much as I love Mycroft, I watch this show for Molly.  lol   WHERE WAS SHE?!    I was really hoping she was getting more screen-time this season.  Seems not.

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So this popped up on Twitter.  I'm not going to call it a spoiler since it is speculation.

 

  https://twitter.com/BakerStBabes/status/818402146186051584

I'm going to have to say it qualifies as a spoiler, because it fits so well:

 

 

...with the speculations I made about the Sister and Redbeard.  And I knew that her texting she was a vampire (as opposed to an innocent night owl) was telling, but I didn't realize HOW telling. 

 

 

WOW.

 

Another connection (from 4.1) to that same story:

 

"Holmes mentions to Watson the case of the Giant Rat of Sumatra, identifying it as "a story for which the world is not yet prepared".

 

It would appear the writers have morphed that into the alternate version of Appointment in Sammara which Sherlock supposedly wrote as a child with the name Sumatra in it.

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I'm rewatching the episode soon, so will wait with any extensive comments until after. Just wanted to say that I also felt the beating scene was brutal. I cried, got angry with John, but I guess I feel that "all is well that ends well". More or less.

 

Am very excited for the rewatch, as it was so confusing last night. I wonder if I'll like the episode just as much after a rewatch, since it overwhelmed me yesterday, and a big part of my excitement was absolutely due to the emotional impact the episode had on me.

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Well, I loved it even more on the second viewing, so I have high hopes that this one will be a keeper! :smile:

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"Okay, JP, take a slow breath… You don’t have to read everything, comment everything, write all your thoughts NOW. The internet won’t run away. The world won’t run away (at least until 20th of January) TAKE IT EASY, for beep’s sake, or your brain start to seethe and will blow up like a beeping boiler, leaving a hole in the ground and shattering windows in the neighbourhood."

"But… but… I HAVE to be the first one!"

"Show-off!"

"Who? Me?"  :angel1: 


———————

Moriarty theory: Jim was indeed an actor hired by E.

———————

First impressions, actually from last night:
(sorry for the chaos and bad English, it’s really the best I’m capable of now. Ask if I’m babbling nonsense or sherlocking too much.)

I have to say if first - the performances put everything I’ve seen so far (on Sherlock and elsewhere) into shadow.

This. Was. Amazing.

Otherworldly.

There is no award in the world to give them - you need a whole new one. Like a Nobel Prize for acting or something.

It was physically painful to watch Sherlock ruining himself (BC made me forget the title of the episode, so I didn’t thought for a second it might be a deception).

Even if Mary being a ghost is a bit cheesy as an idea, IMO Amanda made it into something… true.

And MF… I did tell you, he’s best when his emotions seem to escape his iron self-control just a little bit. When he explodes he’s damn scary for a „little angry man“.

——————————

I still think I will like the episode less when I watch it again with the brain turned on. And I think my main problem will be this:

I’ve had the impression that Moffat’s writing works so well on me, because he DOES NOT give me what he made me to want (like the guys finally TALK to each other, or a hug at the tarmac scene…) Him doing this now, felt like cheating.

Then, he gave me what I surely didn’t want. The very human, fluffy Sherlock openly showing his love (despite it being so heart-wrenching and heartwarming at the same time, that even my goldfish started to cry).

Or Mycroft deciding to keep the card. Okay, it still might be something different than I think, but I was indeed yelling at him: NOOOO, don’t do it! DON’T!!!

I mean, for me, one of the reasons for loving this show, is it having two characters, who’s description in S1-3 made me feel understood and affirmed in my weirdness. I don’t want them to show me I’m wrong, to kill my idols. It’s not a valid point of criticism, nor I think it’s bad writing. I just feel let down here. :(

————————

I like that they are continuing the subtext of reality vs wishful thinking or fiction (John’s blog, Watson’s stories). Now it seems that John not only tries to write Sherlock into a hero, he also tries to „write“ himself into a better version of him. There was something about it in the final scene, I’m waiting for the transcript.

All the characters struggle with their self-portraits. Mary wants to be a wife and mother, John wants to be a good father and husband, Sherlock wants to be like Mycroft, Mycroft wants to be a machine. Now their wishful-thinking persona start to crumble like the Thatcher statues.

————————

I surely don’t like that this episode being visually so different from the first. I think I have to blame Rachel for the the unusual feel of TST, sorry. And Arwel will have a lot to answer about the weird set design and changes.

—————————

I also find it a bit disappointing that despite quite clear message, they still left something, TLJC-ers can cling to. It’s somehow understandable, that they don’t want to loose the part of the audience - in the end, it’s a matter of survival for the show - if they indeed intend to go on with it in any form.

 

But I'm tired of the ambiguity here.

 

At first sight „It is what it is“ sounds a bit like trying to make peace between the fractions, by saying the relationship is something so exclusive, it doesn’t fit into any definition. Here is a nice text about it*:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindbloggling/201405/the-hidden-meaning-it-is-what-it-is

BUT
the makers have to be aware of this (standard-love) poem:

What It Is (E. Fried, english translation)

"It is nonsense
says reason
It is what it is
says love

It is calamity
says calculation
It is nothing but pain
says fear
It is hopeless
says insight
It is what it is
says love

It is ludicrous
says pride
It is foolish
says caution
It is impossible
says experience
It is what it is
says love"


…which is very johnlock-ey piece of writing. And then there is even a John-Locke-y one :D http://gosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/155618826016/jeslock-nice

I remembered another story, don’t know if Mofftiss is aware of it:

The story is of an old farmer in a remote village in China. He was the only man in the whole area who was given a horse to help work the fields.
“This is good!” said the neighbors.
“Maybe good, maybe bad,” replied the farmer, “It just is.”
One day, the horse got free and ran away.
“This is bad!” cried the neighbors.
“Maybe good, maybe bad,” replied the farmer, “It just is.”
Adjusting to work without the horse, everyone was surprised when a few days later the horse returned, bringing another horse with him.
“This is good!” exclaimed the neighbors.
“Maybe good, maybe bad,” replied the farmer, “It just is.”
Hoping to train the new horse, the old farmer’s son got up to ride the horse and fell and broke his leg.
“This is bad!” cried the neighbors.
“Maybe good, maybe bad,” replied the farmer, “It just is.”
The very next day, the Chinese government sent officers to the small farming village to conscript all the young men into service to fight a terrible war. The farmer’s son was the only young man spared, since his leg was broken and he could not fight.
“This is good!” exclaimed the neighbors.
“Maybe good, maybe bad,” replied the farmer, “It just is.”
And so it goes…

 

(in the German translation the farmer's words were "it is what it is", that's why I remembered it.

 

 

This one is about acceptance, which seems to be a big theme in S4 so far. TST was about trying to escape the fate, TLD is about acceptin/facing/embracing it.


*now we are at quantum physics. God, I love this!
 

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I don't know that Sherlock was really entirely doing it as a ploy. I think it was partly that, and definitely started as that, but then he lost control to the point it began to become real - I definitely think he really was on the verge of an overdose at any moment. I know she didn't specifically say about drugs but God it's selfish of Mary to tell him to practically kill himself to save John.  :angry:

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Okay, part of the fun for me is replying to everyone's comments, and I've got a short break, so here goes ....
 

I LOVED Ms. Hudson and I HATED the ending but I knew Sherringford is a woman.

Which ending did you hate? The apparent shooting of John? Or before that?
 

Do you guys think she really did shoot John at the end? Kill him, I mean? If so, no wonder they couldn't continue the series right away... Being dead never stopped anybody from playing a big part on Sherlock, so John could be in the next episode anyway even if he was diseased or in a coma. I'd hate that, but it's possible.

Nope. :) 
 

Okay, are you sure Mofftiss isn't on this forum?
Was I the only one constantly thinking they used some of our ideas and thoughts?

No, not really. There's no new stories under the sun, after all, only different ways of telling them. They're bound to overlap with other people's ideas from time to time. The "other one" being a sister, for example; people were speculating about that almost as soon as HLV ended.

I do wonder if they deliberately played up the photo shoots with Hiddles though, just to throw us off the scent. Heck, they may have even started the rumor that he was in it! :D

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Just nipping back to the beating point - it's definitely the normalisation of it that gets me. I just think if that scene had happened to a female character it would have been handled very differently or there would have been uproar - but because Sherlock is male it's okay?

 

The bit about John getting shot - we had a preview of next weeks episode after the credits and John was definitely up and about. 

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I do wonder if they deliberately played up the photo shoots with Hiddles though, just to throw us off the scent. Heck, they may have even started the rumor that he was in it! :D

 

Especially that he was Henry V in the Hollow Crown. :lol4:

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More responses (I'm never going to catch up, am I? :D
 

John should have recognized the therapist as the bus woman immediately.  I didn't buy that for a second.  And I don't buy that Sherlock didn't recognize his own sister (in the form of the therapist) even in his somewhat drug addled state (perhaps his sister is where the 'premonitions' in the first episode came from though?  Her hand in things - or her appearance somewhere we weren't shown or didn't notice).

He probably should have noticed, but I guess he's not the only one who wasn't really looking ... I didn't recognize her either, even after she revealed herself. I only understood what was going on because of the dialog, not because of her appearance. So to me, that was highly believable because I was experiencing it in the same way John was. (I am famously bad at recognizing people.)
 
There was a nanosecond when I thought she was going to wipe off her makeup and reveal the face of Moriarty. I saw a glimpse of him for just a moment. Photoshop or just really good acting? It was unnerving, at any rate. :smile:
 

Speaking of a cheat, I don't like the fact that through ALL the walking he was doing with fake 'Faith', the government could NOT tell if he was with someone (and thus prevented Mycroft from seeing the sister and having her game ruined.)  That just is not possible given all the walking they did and all the different forms of surveillance used.  Again, that is bad writing.

I think the implication is that Euros (or someone) was messing with their surveillance system, that's why it wasn't working properly. I find that a bit of a stretch, but then I found the whole Moriarty broadcast a bit of a stretch as well; and this could be the same kind of thing. We'll see if they bring anything out about it in the next episode.
 

Still don't like the COINCIDENCE that the ONE woman John 'cheated' with was the Sister.  That is bad writing.

I doubt if there was any coincidence at all.

 

I love how the Bond expectation of Sherlock emerging from the Aston Martin is subverted.

Yes, that was brilliant! Best laugh so far.
 

Why did the Sister want Sherlock to take the Smith case?

Hmmm, good question. Maybe it's just "a game" to her the way it was to Moriarty? And it's still not clear in my mind how she obtained the notes from Smith's daughter.
 

I HATE the phrase "It is what it is".  Always have.  It represents a form of helplessness and acceptance of determinism/fate.

I have to chew on its meaning in the context in which it was used - and how it might be a much more mundane way of saying the same thing as Samarra.

I've never liked it either. But there are some times, I think, when it's true. Some things really can't be fixed, you just have to move on. The trick, I guess, is to know when to fight, and when to give in. Some people use that concept as an excuse to never try to make anything better. At any rate, I think it's clear that Sherlock doesn't like it either, but is wise enough to know that some things, you just have to accept or make things worse. And Mary's death is one of those things.

 

I think we were able to trust the characters and especially Sherlock more here because, ironically, we suspected we were being played by Sherlock - and suspected we knew WHY we were being played by him - his love of John (and Mary).  So because we knew the truth (that a deception WAS likely afoot) and had it confirmed in the end, what worked AGAINST emotional involvement in the last episode actually worked FOR emotional involvement in this one.

Excellent point.
 

Could the fact that his sister is behind things be why Sherlock fixated on and made the whole TAB situation about the women in his life - and about a plot by women?

I have no idea, but I'm increasingly realizing that TAB really does tie in very closely to this season! It really wasn't a stand-alone, the themes about women and ghosts connect it to these three episodes. Neat.

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Just want to say I feel genuinely bad for Martin and Amanda in John and Mary's scenes, without knowing or wanting to know any details or making any assumptions, because those are not my business, or anyone's, but just for the fact Martin and Amanda are separating.

 

It must be tough for them, then and now.

 

It occurred to me that the "I don't want to die" scene must have been a tough one for BC as well, since he actually experienced a moment like that in real life. What actors will go through, just to entertain us .....

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