Episode 4.2 "The Lying Detective"

[BLS_Pro]

I don't know what it was about this since I know it's not real. Perhaps it reminded me of something I've seen or something, but I still feel physically sick thinking about it.

 

That's part of what bothers me though. That he can fight back, he is perfectly capable of doing so, but he doesn't. He lets it happen, is willing to let John carry on if he wants to, because he feels he's deserved it. That's just so screwed in the head.

Question - did you feel the same in 3.1 when John beat Sherlock not once not twice but three separate times - with Sherlock not even trying to defend himself from Watson's assaults?

[Inge l-w]

Concerning Dr Watson, I have repeatedly said that I don't particularly like this incarnation, I even started a thread about how good a friend he is to this Sherlock, way back before the horror of what he did in TLD, and the physical violence got completely out of hand in this one. In SiB it was a ruse and a jokey adaptation of the original ACD story, with "Punch me in the face", here it went beyond any bounds of decency or morality.

[bedelia1984]

 

 

 

John's ideas about Irene were ridiculous. Irene is going to make Sherlock want to live up to his best possible self, yeah right, John. I think you have a much better chance of doing so yourself and if you insist that only a woman could do that job properly, then why don't you call Molly. Irene is a dangerous distraction, believe me. Of course she's an incredibly hot one, too. But Sherlock is totally right to compare his texting her to John texting a random shady woman on a bus rather than to John and Mary's relationship.

Hear hear. But for myself, I think I just have to accept that some men genuinely find such a woman alluring.

 

 

Oh, I find her alluring too! I just think it's absurd to believe she'd make Sherlock live up to any high moral, decent or similar standards. John was suggesting she and Sherlock had potential to become like him and Mary. No, they don't John. Irene may be as dangerous as Mary and as mysterious and adventurous, but she would never lead to him becoming a better person through trying to live up to an idealized image she has of him.

 

Sherlock is already trying to live up to the idealized image John has of him. So he wouldn't actually need Irene for that purpose anyway. And if he wanted someone to love him unconditionally just the way he is, he'd be much wiser to romance Molly.

 

 

Is that what John was saying? I'll have to wait til I see it again, then. I thought he was just saying grab love while you can, because you can't count on it being there forever. Also there was something about loving Mary made him want to be a better man. Mary didn't ask him to be a better man; it's something he wanted to do for her, because he loved her. Which could potentially apply to Sherlock, I suppose. That a very romantic (if male) p.o.v., now that I think about it. But, you know, John is a romantic.

 

 

Yes, I thought that John was saying that too, (to grab love when you can) only he got a few concepts jumbled. I think he said that he had wanted to be the man Mary believed he was (but that he wasn't him), but he also advised Sherlock to try love because it would make him 'complete'- which I think exemplifies why John had problems in his own love life- he thought love and marriage would solve his problems, and then when he still felt something was off, he was tempted to stray- always looking for that completion from outside.

 

The better bit of advice might have been for Sherlock to work on getting himself together- the drugs etc, if in the future he ever wants to be happy either alone or with anyone else.

 

I did think it was interesting when Sherlock was talking to not!Faith that he described how if she had a partner, they wouldn't let her harm herself if they knew- because that is also talking about his view of love as being a kind of care-taking. But somehow, that sounded sweeter and less demanding than what John seemed to want- to have somebody make you complete- wow! It is a lot to ask. Especially now I've seen how John reacts when you let him down.

[BLS_Pro]

Still don't like the COINCIDENCE that the ONE woman John 'cheated' with was the Sister. That is bad writing.

 

It wasn't a coincidence. She was after him. She knows him somehow or can deduce what he likes.

The coincidence I'm talking about is the fact they seek to set Watson up as not "loyal" and the one and ONLY person this is show to occur with just happens to be Sislock. It is that singularity which makes it coincidence and bad writing.

[BLS_Pro]

I think I'm going to have to wait to get home to address anything beyond this comment

 

Moriarty theory: Jim was indeed an actor hired by E.

 

I think this can't be true. How do you get the actor to kill himself at the end. It would be bad writing if it were just an actor

[J.P.]

 

Sherlock comforting John...actually gave me a lump in my throat.

Yup. Just shows how much his character has grown from the first episode. He did this because he loves John rather than it being what is expected by 'humans'

 

Still catching up on all the comments here

 

This scene happened to me 100% like this.

Maybe that's why I still see hesitation and how hard it is for him to do this little step. Harder than everything he did in this episode.

[sherlockandjohn]

So much to reply to, and I have so much more to add myself, after a rewatch.

 

I don't know that Sherlock was really entirely doing it as a ploy. I think it was partly that, and definitely started as that, but then he lost control to the point it began to become real - I definitely think he really was on the verge of an overdose at any moment. I know she didn't specifically say about drugs but God it's selfish of Mary to tell him to practically kill himself to save John. 

 

Just like Mary could not be forced to do anything, Sherlock can't either. He is there for John Watson, 100 percent. Mary only asks this of Sherlock because she knows he'll want to do everything he possibly can for John.

 

 

There was a nanosecond when I thought she was going to wipe off her makeup and reveal the face of Moriarty. I saw a glimpse of him for just a moment. Photoshop or just really good acting? It was unnerving, at any rate.

 

It's so weird that so many of us, including myself, apparently thought that was going to happen for a second there Maybe that was deliberate on Moffat's part.

 

 

I wasn't exactly crazy about the Adler development (though with Moffat, I should have known). Added to that, I wouldn't take romantic advice from pretty much anyone on Sherlock, but especially John, for pete's sake! Talk about the blind leading the blind. I don't think John really understands how things are between Irene and Sherlock, but he was projecting. Ultimately, I would love to see Sherlock happy in whatever way makes sense for him.

 

I feel the exact same way. I will take whatever comes, and honestly, I don't expect anything much will come of it. I mean, Irene and Sherlock? Talk about an unhealthy relationship! On the other hand, she might surprise us all. Maybe she's had a John-figure in her life to love her, too, and that could possibly change even her.

 

 

But we're clearly seeing a Sherlock that is evolving into someone more human than he used to be. I agree that the Sherlock of the first two seasons was not romance material ... but I think this one could be, if he has the courage to try. He doesn't have to cling to John anymore, he can, and has, formed other attachments. It's not hard for me to imagine, any more, that he could make the step to actually being in a romantic relationship with someone.

 

Yep, I can imagine that now, too. I'm not even bothered by it anymore. What is happening to me?! Oh, wait, I just realised that I don't actually want it to happen, just that I could live with it. Phew, I'm still me!

 

 

I find his complete lack of resentment endearing. Because he's a bit superhuman in many ways, it doesn't come across to me as a victim mentality but as his very own brand of compassion. When he says "he's entitled, I killed his wife", I don't believe he means that's his take on the matter, I think he means he understands that it's John's and that he isn't angry at John for feeling that way. He gets it.

 

That's my take on it, as well. And I think it's an important part of the healing process that Sherlock lets John express that he feels this way.

 

 

John's never going to say "hey, sorry I beat the shit out of you" but he will agree to play the badass rescuer when it's so clearly being asked of him.

 

Nope, John is never going to say that; we know it from the past. I do believe he is sorry, to some extent, which is shown in his conversation with Lestrade. The way he says, "I hit him. I hit him really hard" just sounds sad.

[sherlockandjohn]

Okay, some comments after my rewatch:

 

First of all, this episode blew me away. I think it is the best one since Reichenbach. And I love Hearse, Three, and Bride. Even Vow is better, now that I have seen Thatchers. So basically, this is one of my favorite episodes.

 

I noticed that when Sherlock takes a closer look at Faith's walking cane, he has a flash of memory of John with his walking cane. It happens just when Sherlock is talking to Faith about how she is considering killing herself. Does Sherlock think that John was suicidal when he met him? (Which he quite possibly was.)

 

Sherlock scared me when he was hanging over the bridge, also when he was talking to Faith about taking one's life. Wonder if he was considering that himself. It doesn't seem likely, but I don't know what else to make of that scene.

 

Now we know why Molly repeated the word "anyone" in TST, don't we?! For dramatic effect, to make it fit in with this episode. That one could still have been left out, but at least it makes some kind of weird sense now.

 

I love Mrs. Hudson! Kidnapping Sherlock was brilliant! And I cheered her on, when she said this to John: "I know Mary is dead, and I know your heart is broken, but if Sherlock Holmes dies too, who'll you have then? Because I tell you something, John Watson, you will not have me!" I don't blame John for being angry, but I obviously wanted him to come to Sherlock's aid (even if Sherlock didn't need it - though in a sense, he did).

 

I was shocked when Mrs. Hudson entered the kitchen, just as Sherlock fired the gun! Honestly thought he was going to hit Mrs. H. by accident, and that would have been terrible.

 

Bless Molly Hooper! She cares so much about Sherlock, and I really felt bad for her that Sherlock couldn't - or wouldn't - tell her what he was up to, so she could at least understand, possibly.

 

Oh, and this one made me cheer: "There must be something comforting about the number three. People always give up after three." Brilliant! Sherlock is in formidable form.

 

Was rooting for Mycroft to take Lady Smallwood's phone number with him :D Kept saying, "take it, come on, take it!" Though honestly I don't really care if he does or not. It's not important, I just really loved that bit, for some reason.

 

I will post my thoughts on the development in John and Sherlock's friendship in a separate post, or it will get too long.

[Bubu]

After about a year I had to come back here. Ohhh what an episode!
I missed all you clever guys and the things you notice; your opinions, thoughts.

I was so blown away from this one, I immediately proclaimed it is in my TOP 3 films / tv episodes / anything! 

Visually they brought it to yet another level. The relationships as well. The mind...blowing -- do I even have to mention that one?

I loved how Mrs. Hudson got a bigger role here, she is amazing.

I basically agree with most of what I read here, so I don't want to repeat it all.

One of the few things that grabbed me by the heart and noone mentioned (sorry if I just haven't noticed) was:

 

 

 

"It's not a pleasant thought, John, but I have this terrible feeling from time to time that we might all just be human. "

"Even you?" 

"No. Even you."

 

 

[Pamela]

Smith was so repulsively hateful. I almost wish I could somehow skip over his parts on re-watch. At least I enjoyed detesting Moriarty.

 

An observation. A Jones is portraying a Smith. ;)

 

"Your life is not your own. Keep your hands off it." ... is a direct quote from an original ACD story. I haven't seen that talked about yet. I'll try putting the name of the story in a spoiler box. (Hope it works.) Good story, by the way!

 

 

"The Veiled Lodger"

 

[sherlockandjohn]

My main reason for loving this episode is how it deals with the aftermath of Mary's death for John and Sherlock. It is profoundly moving.

 

Martin Freeman's thoughts on why John blames Sherlock fits really well with how I interpreted his actions. There is a lot of potent anger in John's feelings towards Sherlock. Sherlock has done some pretty bad stuff to John. At one point it comes out like this:

"When have I ever been a malingerer?"

"You pretended to be dead for two years!"

...

"Apart from that."

So when he blames Sherlock now, I don't think it's all because of Mary. I think it is fuelled by a mistrust in Sherlock, as well.

 

I love how Sherlock is still able to behave "natural" around John and say things like, "Clever boy. Missed you fumbling around the place." I enjoyed it, because it shows that Sherlock is not afraid of John's anger or blame. He can take it. Sherlock acting this way, not being delicate, signals to John that it's okay for John to be angry - or so I feel.

 

I wonder if Sherlock actually snapped in the mortuary when he realised that C. Smith had the upper hand. Was it part of the plan to get John to save him? Or was he just that upset and high on drugs?

 

When Sherlock takes the bad beating from John, and he says, "Let him do what he wants," it breaks my heart for him, and also makes me love him even more. All in all, Sherlock's character arc is amazing. I no longer have a problem with him becoming more human. He does it so well!

 

When John stood by Sherlock's hospital bed to say goodbye, I was really worried that this was it, that he was going to stay away from Sherlock. That was more or less what I expected from his episode. But when John later came running back to save Sherlock, it reminded me so much of the ending of ASiP. Even similar music was set to this scene, so I think the association was deliberate.

 

The scene in Baker St. after that was just exquisite. Both the content of it and the acting by Cumberbatch and Freeman. I love how John (in the form of Mary) is telling himself to stay and talk. I love how Sherlock is testing the waters by carefully suggesting to come and see Rosie soon. I love how Sherlock obviously wants John to stay, but knows he cannot ask him to, so he just manages to ask, "Are you okay?" I would have been content with ending the scene after John says that he wlll come back the next day - but Moffat really outdid himself! The rest of it is really too poignant for me to express in a satisfying manner. It's beautiful how Sherlock is simply there for John, instinctively. It feels completely natural and right. John's confession and Sherlock comforting him is possibly my favorite scene in any of the episodes.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

 

"It's not a pleasant thought, John, but I have this terrible feeling from time to time that we might all just be human. "

"Even you?" 

"No. Even you."

 

 

 

Great to see you again!

I know; that is a wonderful exchange!

[BLS_Pro]

I wonder if Sherlock actually snapped in the mortuary when he realised that C. Smith had the upper hand. Was it part of the plan to get John to save him? Or was he just that upset and high on drugs?

Sherlock expected John would beat him. He not only expected it, he REQUIRED it to get him into Smith's clutches in the hospital. It was how he planned to get Smith to try to kill him, to confess, to get John to rescue him how he planned to record the confession and wrap everything up. Remember he planted the bug in his cane three weeks earlier. It was ALL part of Sherlock s plan, established more than a fortnight before any of the events shown in the hospital.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

I wonder if Sherlock actually snapped in the mortuary when he realised that C. Smith had the upper hand. Was it part of the plan to get John to save him? Or was he just that upset and high on drugs?

Sherlock expected John would beat him. He not only expected it, he REQUIRED it to get him into Smith's clutches in the hospital. It was how he planned to get Smith to try to kill him, to confess, to get John to rescue him how he planned to record the confession and wrap everything up. Remember he planted the bug in his cane three weeks earlier. It was ALL part of Sherlock s plan, established more than a fortnight before any of the events shown in the hospital.

 

 

But how does it fit in with what Sherlock later says to John, that he couldn't have foreseen that his encounter with Faith was hallucinated? If Sherlock was really taken aback by finding out that he had never met Faith before, how did he originally plan to get into the private room at the hospital? He must have then planned to attack Smith under any circumstances, but that is probably the most credible explanation.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

@JP the whole Bond thing with Mrs. Hudson's car is that she's driving a modern version of the same make Bond drives in the movies. I'm assuming the model is likely different not just updated. But I've never bothered googling the model of Bond's car.

[BLS_Pro]

But how does it fit in with what Sherlock later says to John, that he couldn't have foreseen that his encounter with Faith was hallucinated? If Sherlock was really taken aback by finding out that he had never met Faith before, how did he originally plan to get into the private room at the hospital? He must have then planned to attack Smith under any circumstances, but that is probably the most credible explanation.

Right. He always planned to make a seeming drug induced attack because Faiths being there wouldn't change the situation - Faith would not remember (and couldn't prove anything even if she did) - and Smith would never confess under those circumstance. Her arrival would have been a (planned) failure by Sherlock due to his drug addled condition. And it is that failure which would have caused him to lash out exactly as he did. The only monkey wrench in the plan was it being a different girl. But that change and his confusion because of it didn't change the outcome he had planned from the start.

[Michelle84]

This episode absolutely shocked me, it was a step up of the last episode (which I thought was still pretty good unlike the other viewers -watched it 3 times and every time for me at least, it got better) but this was was on another level. Moffat really carefully thought this through -in the first episode of Sherlock, it is mistakenly believed that John had a brother rather than a sister, and most of us as the audience followed Sherlock's footsteps and hung on tight to this 'brother' theory, however this time for Sherlock himself. The episode was set so meticulously, with the use of the Greek words and the mention of the 'east winds' and so forth which clearly show the immediate danger of Sherrinford. In The Six Thatchers, when Mycroft calls Sherrinford its not to her directly but rather a possible receptionist, which begs the question of whether or not she belongs to some type of institute -whether it be mental or anything really, which gives confinement it would explain her personality. Whatever it is though, she's been a mysterious character and has shocked (almost) everyone. Regardless of the episodes so far, 10/10 I think this episode was faultless and so carefully done.

[Redbeard]

Watched it again.  This episode is quickly becoming one of my favourites.  

 

I found it interesting that John's flirting/texting was in fact exactly what it seemed (well, on John's side anyway).  So John really did want to cheat on Mary.  I was a bit surprised by that.  But he straight up admits he wants to be the man Mary thought he was, he has some growing to do too. 

 

I liked how John could not admit to anyone that he was talking to "Mary", but around Sherlock his guard was totally down enough that he did it right in front of him.  

 

So many lines made me laugh in this, totally paraphrasing but I laughed out loud when Sherlock asked who the "new person" was and John said it was his therapist.  Sherlock replies "Awesome!  Does she take block bookings?".  That was so funny.  I also loved Sherlock's line about going for cake and that a "sugar high would make a good enough substitute"...again paraphrasing.  

 

This episode was so good.  I can't wait for the next one but yet I don't want it to come because I don't want this ride to be over yet!!!!!!

 

Also, Benedict Cumberbatch. I don't know how he does it but this guy is a master, he is probably the best actor I have seen in my lifetime.  He is so phenomenal..an actor has never made me giddy from their sheer brilliance before.  But he does!   Just wow. 

[BLS_Pro]

Have to wonder if The Woman is actually the one texting with Sherlock or if it is Sislock pretending to be The Woman

[Pamela]

Watched it twice more today and liked it better each time. It's even getting a bit easier to stomach Smith. (It's the worst when he bares his teeth or laughs.)

[BLS_Pro]

Sigh.  Home late from work so can't respond to so many of the wonderful, interesting thoughts here.

One of my biggest qualms with the episode was the introduction of Smith.  He is being presented as an entrepreneur and philanthropist whom NO ONE supposedly suspects is a monster.  He is supposed to be a much loved star.  So when he gathers together that group of people at the beginning, they are not criminals nor of a criminal bent.  They are simply well-to-do people in society.

WHO in their right mind, then, would agree to participate in this scenario where you are injected with something you do not know and are told you will not remember what you are told???

This was THE most unbelievable part of the story.  It's another instance of the plot requiring something, characterization be damned. 

[Van Buren Supernova]

There is no nonspoiler outlet out there for my little rant so I put here at the moment. I haven't read all of your inputs but from a quick glance I believe it hasn't been really addressed yet.

 

Just saw a article and it confirms my worry when I first saw the scene, that Sherlock hugging John means Johnlock confirmed.

 

Sigh...

 

If I were expected to bang or romantically associated with friends hugging me, I'd be busy until end of the year.

I hope that is isolated view because the scene works the other way around for me, it's SO not. And imho, I think I still speak objectively from reasoning, not merely preferred orientation.

 

Anyway, it probably not so fitting to be discussed among other things that happen, yes? We'll have years for that.

 

So continue on, guys.

 

I see many good views, too bad I've yet time and mood to address them all so laterz.

 

For me, I want Sherlock not to call and also for Mycroft: No, please don't. Don't be ordinary. I still need to blame you guys anytime I'm being selfish, heartless or cold. Don't take that away from me.

 

And from now on, if I have visitors who overstay their welcome...

"Get out of my house, you reptile."

[sherlockandjohn]

 

Just saw a article and it confirms my worry when I first saw the scene, that Sherlock hugging John means Johnlock confirmed.

 

Sigh....

 

:lol: Not really anything new. If anyone wants to see something romantic between Sherlock and John, they can find it. It's not too "out there". But as for me, I don't see John ever being interested in Sherlock or any other male in that way. John says something like this in ASiB: "Who knows about Sherlock, but for anyone out there who still cares, I'm not actually gay." That's how I see it. John is a ladies man.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Bubu, sorry for replying to your post after so many insightful observations and reactions above, but I mentioned the original story in Carol's original quotes thread. There are also a couple of The Sign of the Four both in this one and in TST, and one from the Retired Colourman in TST, not to mention several from The Valley of Fear in both episodes, including the code name Porlock.

I tend to agree with Pseudonym about this Dr Watson not being a good friend, let alone best friend of the most observant man ever created in fiction. As for a third sibling, whatever their gender, the two creators have overstepped the bounds and gone into Gene Wilder territory, if you know of the film Sherlock Holmes' Smarter Brother, who is NOT Mycroft.

[sfmpco]

Behind the scenes of TLD

 

https://vimeo.com/198767114?ref=tw-v-share