Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[Arcadia]

I'm not even sure Sherlock forgave Eurus, because I don't get the sense he ever blamed her. It seemed to me it was more about him accepting the value of his own humanity; of learning how to spend the currency that Mary made of his life. And one way he did that was by showing kindness to his mad, homicidal sister. Even though -- especially since -- he had no reason to, and every reason to spurn her. Maybe the implication is that reason alone, devoid of sentiment, would have told him to treat her no differently than Magnussen? Hm, maybe. I don't think I believe that being rational is the same as being pitiless, but I sometimes get the impression that the Moftisses do.

 

This really should have been a two-hour episode, shouldn't it? So much left to say...........

[T.o.b.y]

I'm not even sure Sherlock forgave Eurus, because I don't get the sense he ever blamed her. It seemed to me it was more about him accepting the value of his own humanity; of learning how to spend the currency that Mary made of his life. And one way he did that was by showing kindness to his mad, homicidal sister. Even though -- especially since -- he had no reason to, and every reason to spurn her. Maybe the implication is that reason alone, devoid of sentiment, would have told him to treat her no differently than Magnussen? Hm, maybe. I don't think I believe that being rational is the same as being pitiless, but I sometimes get the impression that the Moftisses do.

 

This really should have been a two-hour episode, shouldn't it? So much left to say...........

 

I think the big difference between Magnussen and Eurus is that he is perfectly sane and she is completely mad.

 

Magnussen knows what he's doing is wrong. He just doesn't give a damn. He says he's not a villain, just a "businessman acquiring assets", but he totally is. He is openly, explicitly, selfish, sadistic, power hungry and immoral. He is a monster. A dragon for Sherlock to slay indeed. And that's that.

 

Eurus on the other hand has gone so far into her own mind where nobody can follow her that she's lost touch with reality. She doesn't understand right and wrong, heck, she doesn't even understand emotions or physical sensations. She's insane and lost and terribly lonely and she takes very drastic measures to figure out some kind of truth for herself and also to get the attention of her family (back). Sherlock doesn't blame her because she can't be held fully responsible for her actions due to mental illness. He wishes he could cure her, "save her", but he can't and he finally accepts that she must be kept away from the world to protect other people from her, but he has no rational reason to be angry at her. Plenty of emotional reasons, but while he has discovered that his emotions are largely okay and valid, he's still Sherlock Holmes enough not to give in to them most of the time.

 

[Arcadia]

Oh, I get why he was pitiless towards Magnussen. But since S4 is supposed to be about Sherlock acquiring embracing his humanity, I just wonder if we are supposed to draw a comparison between Sherlock's solution to stopping CAM's threat, and his solution to ending Eurus' threat. Would cold rationality have had him simply just break her neck and be done with her? Or did his new-found "heart" save both all of them? Perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part, although I see no reason for me to disbelieve it either. (Still desperately looking for something to cling to... )

[T.o.b.y]

Oh, I get why he was pitiless towards Magnussen. But since S4 is supposed to be about Sherlock acquiring embracing his humanity, I just wonder if we are supposed to draw a comparison between Sherlock's solution to stopping CAM's threat, and his solution to ending Eurus' threat. Would cold rationality have had him simply just break her neck and be done with her? Or did his new-found "heart" save both all of them? Perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part, although I see no reason for me to disbelieve it either. (Still desperately looking for something to cling to... )

 

I've been trying to argue that it's cold rationality that prevents him from breaking her neck.

 

In the case of Magnussen, I've never been quite sure whether the decision to shoot him was a rational or an emotional one. Both, I guess.

[Arcadia]

 

Oh, I get why he was pitiless towards Magnussen. But since S4 is supposed to be about Sherlock acquiring embracing his humanity, I just wonder if we are supposed to draw a comparison between Sherlock's solution to stopping CAM's threat, and his solution to ending Eurus' threat. Would cold rationality have had him simply just break her neck and be done with her? Or did his new-found "heart" save both all of them? Perhaps that's just wishful thinking on my part, although I see no reason for me to disbelieve it either. (Still desperately looking for something to cling to... )

 

I've been trying to argue that it's cold rationality that prevents him from breaking her neck.

 

 

In the case of Magnussen, I've never been quite sure whether the decision to shoot him was a rational or an emotional one. Both, I guess.

Me either, actually.

[Shadow Dweller]

An emotional decision that later was rationalized to give it credibility on Sherlock's mind.

[sfmpco]

I think the fear always was there. That Sherlock might snap and cross the line into madness. I also can imagine that Mycroft was wondering the same about himself. Poor chap.

 

As for drug use - I did believe that Sherlock was only a user - until TAB. (But I still don't believe he was high on the tarmac!) Anyway, it wouldn't be anything unusual for people with traumatic past, no matter if they remember it or not (I know a woman who didn't remember the abuse until she was in her fifties), because no matter how deep hidden the memories, the brain forgets nothing.

Plus I think Sherlock rebelled against Mycroft's overbearing supervision. Which is also quite common.

 

And I also think that the same fear stopped the whole family from telling Sherlock the truth when he was older. It probably might have been healing (because it obviously was in the end), but you never know… As I wrote somewhere else, nowadays even psychiatrists don't try to reveal hidden traumas at any cost, because it tends to make things worse (I don't really understand, why it is better to live with shadows without even knowing them, but… eh, well…) So I do understand why they were too scared to try, even if it would make at least Mycroft's life much easier.

 

I don't believe that Sherlock was high on the tarmac either, and I struggle to find the logic of where he would have gotten drugs while in solitary confiinement - probably going straight from solitary to the tarmac.  Plus in TAB he apparently  was over-dosing on a few different things.  

[sfmpco]

BTW,  has anyone given much thought as to when the Eurus/Moriarty meeting took place in light of Sherlock's timeline with meeting John?  Did she find out that Sherlock had a new friend after all those years and so decided to begin a systematic sabotage via Moriarty?  And yet Sherlock wouldn't have been involved at all in ASIP if Lestrade hadn't recruited him, so it was sort of an accidental introduction to Moriarty.  By the time of TGG, Moriarty seems genuinely perturbed that Sherlock is meddling in his affairs, but they have the exchange of:

 

From Ariane Devere's transcript:

 

JIM: I’ll burn the heart out of you. 
(His face is a snarl as he says the word ‘heart’ but at the end of the sentence he looks almost regretful.) 
SHERLOCK (softly): I have been reliably informed that I don’t have one. 

JIM: But we both know that’s not quite true.

 

 

I have always wondered about Moriarty's line of knowing it's not quite true.  Is it because he already has had the meeting the Eurus and she has told him about Redbeard/Victor Trevor?  Yet it seems the first Christmas to boys share together is in ASIB, and we know that Moriarty was a Christmas present for Eurus.  So... the time line is a bit muddled.

[Arcadia]

Just a bit muddled, yeah.

 

I don't actually take the "Christmas present" thing too literally ... given as how Sherlock seems to regard every difficult case as a Christmas present. What I mean is, it could have taken place just about any time of year, and "Christmas present" was meant ironically. Certainly Moriarty didn't look like he was dressed for winter weather when his helicopter landed.

 

The other thing I take away is that Jim and Sherlock had already been "playing their game" for awhile before the meeting with Eurus. I don't think she told Jim much about Sherlock that he didn't already know; it was more about her getting input from him, I thought. More specifically, the gifs.

 

So I feel like their meeting could have taken place any time before Reichenbach.

[sfmpco]

Well we know she gave him information on Redbeard although she didn't know that Sherlock had blocked and rewritten that part of his memory.  So she may have only given Moriarty the fact that she murdered Sherlock's best friend, drowned him.  Of course, Moriarty's early works included the drowning of Carl Powers, so they no doubt found a common theme...

[Arcadia]

Well we know she gave him information on Redbeard ...

 

We do? CAM somehow knew something about it (and just how did that happen??????), although he may have known nothing more than the name. But I can't remember anything Moriarty said to indicate he knew ... ? What did I miss?

 

 

[sfmpco]

Just a bit muddled, yeah.

 

I don't actually take the "Christmas present" thing too literally ... given as how Sherlock seems to regard every difficult case as a Christmas present. What I mean is, it could have taken place just about any time of year, and "Christmas present" was meant ironically. Certainly Moriarty didn't look like he was dressed for winter weather when his helicopter landed.

 

The Christmas present wasn't metaphorical.  Again I refer to the transcript:

 

GOVERNOR: You even brought her a visitor on Christmas Day.

(John frowns.)

MYCROFT (quieter): I took a calculated risk.

GOVERNOR: You gave her a Christmas present. Remember her Christmas present?

 

[sfmpco]

 

Well we know she gave him information on Redbeard ...

 

We do? CAM somehow knew something about it (and just how did that happen??????), although he may have known nothing more than the name. But I can't remember anything Moriarty said to indicate he knew ... ? What did I miss?

 

 

JIM: I’m your Christmas present.

(He strolls forward again, Eurus also approaching the glass from her side. They stop again, Jim looking down at her appraisingly.)

JIM (in a whisper): So what’s mine?

(Eurus’ eyes turn towards the camera on the wall outside the cell. She focuses in on the red light showing that the camera is active. In the governor’s office, Mycroft watches as the footage is replaced by an image of a heavy flow of water pouring down the screens. In the cell, Eurus looks at Jim.)

EURUS (softly): Redbeard.

[Arcadia]

Okay then! Thanks sfmpco, obviously I had forgotten both of those. But I still don't get how Moriarty put "Redbeard" into play. Unless ... hmmm, maybe that's what gave Moriarty the idea to threaten Sherlock's friends in order to "burn" him? Although you'd think he would have figured that out on his own (even I knew that, and I'm not a criminal mastermind ... :P) Heh, if that's the case, then he really did fail miserably. No wonder he shot himself. :D

[sfmpco]

Well, I think when they wrote TRF in 2011 that they didn't have the whole Eurus plot line worked out (if at all) since THE EAST WIND and REDBEARD didn't come up until S3, and the when S4 came around they were trying to force dots to connect backwards, but it's an awkward fit, and it doesn't all match perfectly.  Perhaps they should have taken some tips from JK Rowling on how to plan out a plot line and stories for years to come.

[Doe]

Well, I think when they wrote TRF in 2011 that they didn't have the whole Eurus plot line worked out (if at all) since THE EAST WIND and REDBEARD didn't come up until S3, and the when S4 came around they were trying to force dots to connect backwards, but it's an awkward fit, and it doesn't all match perfectly.  Perhaps they should have taken some tips from JK Rowling on how to plan out a plot line and stories for years to come.

 

I agree with you. 

[Fantasy Lover]

Except the cursed child sucked

[Arcadia]

I had to read back a few posts to get that reference! :d

[sfmpco]

So I watched/listened to "The Final Problem" again tonight, and I was struck by a couple of thoughts regarding the whole coffin scene: 

 

1) When Mycroft says "So who loves Sherlock?" that's in the present tense, and John responds soon after "Irene Adler." Mycroft did not respond at all to that, which leads me to believe that he always knew she was alive and that he had just bluffed to John at the end of ASIB about her truly being dead. Otherwise, he would have said something to the effect of "What do you mean, Irene Adler? She's dead." But he didn't. 

 

2) The level of intimacy between Molly and Sherlock that precedes the "I love you" bit. He expects her to take his calls, as if she always takes his calls. He counts on her being there for him. Even as far back as ASIB, he clearly gossiped to her when they were together. So what I am saying is that there is a deep level of trust and intimacy between them. He actually does love her.  I know I am barking up an unpopular tree by saying that, but the more you study it, the more you realize just how much he has grown to love her.  Maybe not in a totally romantic way (something that is a bit foreign to him anyhow)  - but in a deep, abiding way, and that is pretty heady stuff coming from him because it's truer than romantic love.

 

[gerry]

The two lines of Molly dialogue that struck me from the coffin scene was 1) after Sherlock asked Molly to say the "easy" words ILY, her immediate assumption was that he was making fun of her and 2) after she tells him to say ILY first, she says "say it like you mean it". It makes perfect sense that she would make the assumption he was making fun of her since he has done it in many of their past interactions and in fact in the last interaction we see of them in TLD he was mocking her concern. I also presume she asks him to say it like he means it because she doesn't think he does otherwise she wouldn't have add it and Molly's reaction to his first ILY would imply it was what she expected. She didn't seem like she knew what to think of the second ILY when she looked at her phone.

 

I guess what I'm saying is I don't know if much has changed for Molly where Sherlock's concerned from the "I don't count" line in TRF so I'm not sure I can infer intimacy from their interactions if Molly doesn't even think he loves her. And really, he hasn't really given her any reason to believe it from his behavior towards her.

[Boton]

 

 

2) The level of intimacy between Molly and Sherlock that precedes the "I love you" bit. He expects her to take his calls, as if she always takes his calls. He counts on her being there for him. Even as far back as ASIB, he clearly gossiped to her when they were together. So what I am saying is that there is a deep level of trust and intimacy between them. He actually does love her.  I know I am barking up an unpopular tree by saying that, but the more you study it, the more you realize just how much he has grown to love her.  Maybe not in a totally romantic way (something that is a bit foreign to him anyhow)  - but in a deep, abiding way, and that is pretty heady stuff coming from him because it's truer than romantic love.

 

I'm not really sold on the postulated Sherlolly conclusion that Sherlock and Molly wind up together and that's why she's so happy going into 221B in the last scene. (And you weren't saying that.) But I do agree that there is a love there that is very deep and permanent, and maybe Molly just needs to learn to trust it, in the same way that Sherlock needs to learn to let her trust it, so to speak. It would fit with the theme of the entire show that there are lots of types of deep and abiding love, and that sex doesn't have to enter into the vast majority of them.

[sfmpco]

The two lines of Molly dialogue that struck me from the coffin scene was 1) after Sherlock asked Molly to say the "easy" words ILY, her immediate assumption was that he was making fun of her and 2) after she tells him to say ILY first, she says "say it like you mean it". It makes perfect sense that she would make the assumption he was making fun of her since he has done it in many of their past interactions and in fact in the last interaction we see of them in TLD he was mocking her concern. I also presume she asks him to say it like he means it because she doesn't think he does otherwise she wouldn't have add it and Molly's reaction to his first ILY would imply it was what she expected. She didn't seem like she knew what to think of the second ILY when she looked at her phone.

 

I guess what I'm saying is I don't know if much has changed for Molly where Sherlock's concerned from the "I don't count" line in TRF so I'm not sure I can infer intimacy from their interactions if Molly doesn't even think he loves her. And really, he hasn't really given her any reason to believe it from his behavior towards her.

 

Actually, Sherlock said "You do count.  You've always counted and I've always trusted you."  He later called her the one "who mattered the most."  Now, I'm not here to argue Sherlolly because it's not worth the aggravation.  However, I do believe she took the bull by the horns in the ILY scene by making him say it first.  But then, she's always been the one to put him in line when he's out of line, and he falls back into place at her prompting and becomes sincere, just as he has done since ASIB,, which is why I believe his second ILY was sincere (though not in a gushy, hearts aflutter way).  That's one of the reasons he uses her to focus in his mind palace after being shot.  She keeps him in line in a way that John never could because John and Sherlock are generally goofing around.  Does Sherlock heed John's  admonishment to apologize to Mrs. Hudson at the beginning of THOB?  No.  Does he immediately back off after insulting Molly and apologize in ASIB?  Yes.  And he's sincere.  In fact, aside from  saying, "Don't make jokes, Molly.  It's really not your area." in TRF, he doesn't really say disparaging things to her again.  He doesn't even comment on Tom in TEH although he was quick to comment "gay" on Jim from IT in TGG.  Molly, the one person who learned to see through his bullshit, according to John in  TLD, is indeed not the last person Sherlock would ever think of.  No, he has thought of her long before John did.

 

If the series ever does go forward, they have to deal with the consequences of the ILY and have Sherlock and Molly in a different place.  Not canon?  Canon is out the window at the point with Eurus, so it doesn't matter.

[Arcadia]

 

I'm not really sold on the postulated Sherlolly conclusion that Sherlock and Molly wind up together and that's why she's so happy going into 221B in the last scene. (And you weren't saying that.) But I do agree that there is a love there that is very deep and permanent, and maybe Molly just needs to learn to trust it, in the same way that Sherlock needs to learn to let her trust it, so to speak.

 

And himself too, perhaps? I have long thought that Sherlock thinks he would hurt Molly if they got "close," and that's one reason he keeps his distance. And I've always rather agreed with him, actually. But after TFP I feel like just about anything is possible, relationship-wise. Including Sherlock and Molly moving on as if nothing happened at all. :(

[sfmpco]

But I don't believe that Sherlock's knee-jerk reaction to be abrasive is in play the way it was up to TRF, and I'm just talking in general.  I think he really took a look at the damage his words and unsolicited deductions can do with the death of Mary.  Then he got put through the emotional wringer in TFP not only with the ILY scene but also the whole memory recovery of Redbeard and what that was all really about.  Mycroft said that Sherlock was an emotional child, and those emotions came to the surface when he lost control by smashing the coffin (for whatever reason may be assigned to the coffin-smashing, the point is that he totally lost control of his emotions and took them out on the coffin, something we haven't seen before).  

 

So while I don't believe we will see a teddy-bear Sherlock should more episodes ever happen, I do believe we will see a more human, vulnerable Sherlock, one who no longer hides himself behind his cold, deductive reasoning.

 

Plus, if the show ever comes back, Rosie will be several years older, and they will have to deal with that.  And will his and Molly's relationship been in limbo for all that time?  That doesn't really work.  

[Arcadia]

I agree with all that. But it still wouldn't surprise me if they never address the "I love you" scene, and leave them exactly where they've always been, just because it's Moftiss.

 

It's funny, I was just wondering this morning as I was driving to work what we were supposed to make of Sherlock smashing the coffin. I bet everyone has a different interpretation. For myself, I think maybe Sherlock was enraged because he wants so much to never hurt Molly again, and yet he ended up hurting her anyway. Sort of like that. There's something more to it, though, I haven't quite explained it to myself yet.