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Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"


Undead Medic

What did you think of "The Final Problem?"  

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No, TAB is hardly canon at all, even though it's very canon-ish.

 

I was thinking of Irene and Mary. The canon Irene was a bit scandalous for her era (an opera singer, horrors!), but she wasn't any kind of villain except in one man's mind --because she refused to turn over a photo he had freely given her, which he now considered a political liability, even though she had no intention of using it against him. Like "our" Irene and her photos of the "young person of interest," she intended to keep it merely so *he* would not harm *her*. Whereas "our" Irene is in cahoots with Moriarty!

 

And I consider "our" Mary to be a possible villain, because we never did find out what sort of assignments she used to take. Compared to canon's sweet little Mary, she's definitely questionable.

 

Then there's "our" Mrs. Hudson, who is the wealthy widow of a drug dealer. I'd be interested in knowing who's running the cartel now!

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Well, but Miss Adler was always an antagonist...

 

As for Mary - what they did with her is pretty WTF, agreed. Ironically, in the end, I think they went for a very Victorian concept; the "angelic" female love interest who inspires the hero (here: heroes) to become a better man. Fine with me actually, it's an adaptation of a Victorian work of fiction after all, but if that was where they meant to take her, why give her all this sinister potential and then never realize it? I would have much preferred her character to remain ambiguous.

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Yeah, exactly. It still feels to me like they collapsed their proposed seasons 4 & 5 into one season. In fact, John getting "shot" at the end of TLD would have made a perfect cliffhanger, wouldn't it? And left an entire season to deal with Eurus.

That could be. What I also think, they might have had a different idea initially, because she wasn't present in the eariler seasons AT ALL, while Moriarty was there from the very beginning. Geeez, to be a fly on Mofftiss' walls… Because the initial idea might be visible, we just don't know where to look.

 

Did anyone of you go through the additions to S4? I still haven't, which is a bit not good. Am I blind or there are no commentaries on the DVDs? It also adds to the all over feeling of… abandonment? tiredness? I-don't-care-anymore-ness? Something is definitely missig from the fandom-life.

 

I wonder how the USA con goes.

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Yeah, exactly. It still feels to me like they collapsed their proposed seasons 4 & 5 into one season. In fact, John getting "shot" at the end of TLD would have made a perfect cliffhanger, wouldn't it? And left an entire season to deal with Eurus.

That could be. What I also think, they might have had a different idea initially, because she wasn't present in the eariler seasons AT ALL, while Moriarty was there from the very beginning. Geeez, to be a fly on Mofftiss' walls… Because the initial idea might be visible, we just don't know where to look.

 

I think that's just one of the pitfalls of serialized television ... even a show like "Lost," which clearly had a specific endgame, tends to get lost in the brambles between the beginning and the end. But I don't think Sherlock ever had an end game; to me it's more as if each season was a whole new idea, barely related to the past and letting the future fend for itself. Until S3 and "the other one", when they clearly had something in mind. But before that, no ... I didn't get any sense they were going somewhere specific, they just wanted to have fun.

 

Did anyone of you go through the additions to S4? I still haven't, which is a bit not good. Am I blind or there are no commentaries on the DVDs? It also adds to the all over feeling of… abandonment? tiredness? I-don't-care-anymore-ness? Something is definitely missig from the fandom-life.

I watched most of them, and had the exact same feeling ... they'd lost interest. The extras felt like they were doing a rote chore instead of gleefully sharing, like they used to. The fun's gone out of it for them. Etc. And correct, no commentary. I get that those things are time-consuming, but it still feels a bit like they're slacking off. Or bored with the whole thing.

 

Even setlock felt like they were going out of their way to avoid the fans.

 

They don't love us anymore!!!!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:

 

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Well, but Miss Adler was always an antagonist...

 

Only to the King of Bohemia, really.  To Holmes as well, I suppose, in a technical story-plotline sense, but I think his attitude was more along the lines of highly respected opponent in a chess tournament.  He had far more respect for her than for the King.

 

Did anyone of you go through the additions to S4? I still haven't, which is a bit not good. Am I blind or there are no commentaries on the DVDs? It also adds to the all over feeling of… abandonment? tiredness? I-don't-care-anymore-ness? Something is definitely missig from the fandom-life.

 

I wonder how the USA con goes.

 

Is the con on now?  I never got email number one from them, though I was on their mailing list last year.  Not that I could have gone this year anyhow.

 

As for the DVD extras (which I assume is what you're asking about), it's true that there weren't many, and even those felt pretty formulaic.  But didn't they have another edition for S3, later on?  I wouldn't be surprised to see something with more extras available this fall (just in time for Christmas buying).

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They had another UK one too, right?  Or is that later this year?  In any case, they haven't sent me any emails about anything since last year, or whenever the first con was.  You'd think their prior email list would be their very first publicity channel.

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They've had 2 cons in the UK & the 3rd one is this fall up in Birmingham instead of London. Any good company goes to their email list 1st followed by their social media outlets.

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As for the DVD extras (which I assume is what you're asking about), it's true that there weren't many, and even those felt pretty formulaic.

I just assumed they didn't have time to do more extras. Per one of the comments Gatiss made on the DVD it took a Herculean effort for them to be able to find time to schedule season 4 filming and it appears by how tired the actors were that the had to cram a lot of filming in a short period of time. The actress that played Eurus mentioned how grueling the Sherinford scenes were to film because they did it all in like 4 days or something like that. I'd imagine the DVD stuff was not high on their list of things to do if they barely got the filming in.

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Although Moffat has said before that he has a 5th season in mind, I really feel as if he and Gatiss have painted themselves into a corner.  I am honestly not sure they had Eurus in mind in S1 and S2.  But somewhere between S2 and S3 they came up with something that really didn't quite work (I keep thinking of the line from THE GRINCH WHO STOLE CHRISTMAS -   "Then he got an idea.  An awful idea.  The Grinch got a wonderful, awful idea!"), and I hate saying that because I love the show so much.   But I did not LOVE S4 the way l loved the others (I am not including TAB when I say S4).

 

Although I knew that Moriarty was dead, I did like the idea that his influence was not - but not through Eurus. 

 

I think at this point they are so far left field of any pretense of canon that they simply have no place to go.  

 

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I'm hoping that they meant what I hope they meant when they said something like now it'll be about Sherlock and John solving crimes. I'd really like to see them return to writing episodes that focus on the crime of the week, but with nice character moments, a la S1 and S2.

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I would be the most surprised person on Earth if I learned that they had Eurus or any other sibling in mind during S1-S2. Nothing about the first two seasons gives me any sense that they were planning that far ahead.

 

I think S3 is probably my favorite season. Looking back on it, it seems to me it was written with pure love of the character of Sherlock, especially TSo3. And it seems to me that's when they began to focus more on his "great heart" (isn't that the quote?) than on his cold reason. But it was a change in direction, and that's always risky for a show that's already popular the way it is. I wonder if it's even possible to reset to the way it was at the beginning.

 

I think most long-running shows survive on the popularity of their characters, not on the strength of their stories, don't they? I don't know if that's relevant to Sherlock or not ... there's so few episodes ... but I thought about it when I was watching NCIS the other night. I find I seldom pay much attention to the plots on that show, but I watch it anyway because the characters are engaging. No, scratch that ... because Mark Harmon is engaging. If he had retired from that show, it would be sooooo done.

 

I had a point that actually tied in with the topic of this thread, but I've sort of lost my way. :rolleyes: Maybe y'all can find the path and let me know which way to go at the next turn.....

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Ha! S3 is the most non-canonical Sherlock season ever, including the abominable TAB and S4. They should quit while they are ahead, instead of inflicting their viewpoints on the rest of us!

I have been re-watching Morse, Lewis, Dalgliesh and Wexford on a loop just to recover my sense of what a good crime series ought to be, detective-wise and plot-wise ever since the airing of TFP!

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I would be the most surprised person on Earth if I learned that they had Eurus or any other sibling in mind during S1-S2. Nothing about the first two seasons gives me any sense that they were planning that far ahead.

 

Who knows. Yes, a lot was clearly retconned but it's pretty well done if you ask me. My guess is they had a vague idea that if the series ever got beyond one or two seasons, they would so something with the legendary third Holmes sibling but no concrete plans until S3. Because otherwise, we would have heard about Redbeard sooner.

 

I never watch any extras on the DVDs so I can't say whether I share the impression that they got tired of the show or not. It's certainly not the vibe I picked up from S4. That appeared very gleeful to me. As if they knew this was possibly / probably their last chance to do Sherlock and so all the breaks came off and they indulged in every fannish fantasy they had ever had before it would be too late to realize it. The last series certainly seemed less thoughtful and much less restrained than the former ones to me. It was happy, boisterous, fun, outrageous, loving fan-fiction gone wild, at least that's how it came across to me and it made me feel happy and validated as a fan, if not so much satisfied as a critical viewer. In food terms, the first series to me is a gourmet meal at an innovate new restaurant and the last one is popcorn and ginger ale (I don't like coke, can you tell?). There's a place for both in my life so it's all good.

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I beg to dream and differ! S1 of this whole pain in the anatomy of any ACD Sherlock Holmes fan was the enticing appetiser, S2 was the wholly satisfying main course, S3 was a heavy on cream dessert and S4 was the unnecessary brandy and coffee at the end, wholly optional!

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I think S3 is probably my favorite season. Looking back on it, it seems to me it was written with pure love of the character of Sherlock, especially TSo3. And it seems to me that's when they began to focus more on his "great heart" (isn't that the quote?) than on his cold reason. But it was a change in direction, and that's always risky for a show that's already popular the way it is. I wonder if it's even possible to reset to the way it was at the beginning.

If you're commenting on my repeated hope that they'll go back to focussing on Sherlock and John solving crimes, let me clarify.  I am not suggesting (or wanting) that they do a reset.  Things have happened, the characters have matured (or whatever you want to call it), so there's no literal going back.  However, I *am* hoping that they've gotten a good bit of the WTF out of their systems, and can now focus on Sherlock and John (as they are now) solving crimes, with of course a healthy helping of humor and character development on the side.  So in that sense, the new episodes would resemble S1 and S2.

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Well, I was sort of referring to your "repeated hope" :smile: but I didn't mean to imply I thought you wanted a complete reset. I was thinking about the ... mood? ... of the series more than I was type of plot, I'm afraid. Some of the youthful ebullience went out of it when Sherlock got shot, things suddenly turned more serious. Then he killed CAM and it just went further that way.

 

I remember mentioning this before, but this scene:

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That's just before he finds Mary in CAM's office, and it's the last time we see him that way ... vital, whole, inquisitive, audacious. Once I knew what was waiting for him at the top of the stairs, I've never been able to see this without it breaking my heart a little. I guess I feel from this moment on, it's all downhill for him; there's nothing but pain ahead. Is it a "loss of innocence" moment, perhaps? Those always make me sad, seems like no one's ever quite happy again after that. They make great stories but I always feel wounded by them.

 

Anyway, that shot is a repeated motif, going all the way back to the beginning:

 

uuMJAgz.jpg

 

I doubt it was intentional, but those two shots bookend Sherlock's "period of innocence," if I can call it that. Even after the Fall, he's still happily tearing around the city chasing criminals. But after he finds out about Mary, the stakes are different; he's not just having fun anymore, he's trying to protect his family. It's hard for me to imagine him going back from that to being the happy-go-lucky daredevil we first knew him as. And that's what I was thinking about.

 

But I think we're essentially saying the same thing ... the characters have evolved, but that's no reason why they can't go back to crime solving. I just wonder if the same sense of "doing it for fun" can be recaptured. I don't know that it needs to be in order for the show to work; it's always had a hint of melancholy too, which also suits the character of Sherlock well. It's all good.

 

I agree that I hope they've got the explosions and horror motifs out of their systems. I actually don't mind them that much, it's sort of a trip, but they get old really really fast.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Another little thing I noticed: Eurus' room looks like an aquarium. And she is a shark. At the beginning of TST Sherlock seems to outstretch his hand to touch the glass - it's repeated in the first meeting with Eurus. Now I wonder if it's deliberate.

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Another little thing I noticed: Eurus' room looks like an aquarium. And she is a shark. At the beginning of TST Sherlock seems to outstretch his hand to touch the glass - it's repeated in the first meeting with Eurus. Now I wonder if it's deliberate.

Why is Eurus a shark?

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I wonder if it's deliberate.

 

Just ask Moftiss next time you see them.  They'll say "Uh -- yeah!  We meant it!"

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A dangerous species. Murderous, but also innocent in a way, because sharks are not evil at will.

That's an interesting interpretation! Yeah, I guess you have a point.

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