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Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

What did you think of "The Final Problem?"  

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    • 10/10 Excellent.
    • 9/10 Not quite the best, but not far off.
    • 8/10 Certainly worth watching again.
    • 7/10 Slightly above the norm.
    • 6/10 Average.
    • 5/10 Slightly sub-par.
    • 4/10 Decidedly below average.
      0
    • 3/10 Pretty Poor.
    • 2/10 Bad.
    • 1/10 Awful.


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Still, if we are to believe that Eurus taught Sherlock to play the violin (oh, really, at that age? Oh, okay, so maybe she was a musical prodigy on top of everything else... :rolleyes: ) then they did indeed have a connection. But even if they did, it wasn't enough for Eurus. She wanted more, and when she didn't get it, her psychosis led her to do something horrible.

 

And is lonliness even her problem? Or is it possessiveness, or the insatiable need to control others? Those two would be more in keeping with a psychosis, I would think. Or maybe not, I don't really know how that works.

 

 

The side of Eurus that is looking for connection- for example the piano exchange, the way she gives up at the end- I find it really hard to trust. Part of my brain is just saying 'it's a trap'- even now- and that in the end she got what she wanted, which was proximity to Sherlock, but we still don't know what she will use that proximity for, and the purpose may not be innocuous.

 

Then again, when I think about how she set herself up at a remove to Sherlock- behind a screen, from a distance, it does seem like she was possibly afraid that if she got too close to him, she wouldn't be able to go through with her experiments. She wanted to watch his reactions as a detached doctor, not a sister. 

 

 

But since you mention mirroring, I find it interesting that when Eurus and Moriarty meet, they literally mirror each other's movements. Although I thought, when I first saw it, that was really meant to convey a form of sex. 

 

 

That is what I thought too. Imagine the children!

 

Though, did we really see the extent of Moriarty and Eurus' contact? If she was in control of Sherrinford, how long was she in control for, and how much access had she to the real world?

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Fascinating! Both this and Toby's thread have been successfully hijacked by the non-existent Holmes sister!

Concerning her hair, however, there's a very simple answer: I have seen students in my classes who are doing ballet and modern dance pile that mass of hair in a very tight bun and hold it in place with a hair band, like the one she asks Sherlock for, and it could be covered by any decent wig, simply showing the head to be slightly elongated on top. Since we didn't get very many pictures of Euros as Dr Watson's therapist from the back close up, she could have resorted to the same easy ploy.

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Also when Euros was impersonating John's therapist, she did show at least a few signs of a professional understanding of psychology. The most notable example is how she seemed to be able to tell that John was hallucinating Mary. 

 

Remember that John hallucinated Mary standing behind Euros-therapist. When John lied to Euros-therapist that he doesn't talk to anyone, hallucination-Mary starts crying. John then turns his eyes towards her. Euros-therapist notices this and asks John what he's looking at behind her. John saying he's just looking away. However then Euros-therapist says, 'There's a difference between looking away and looking to. I tend to notice these things.'

 

I have trouble seeing how Euros could have done that by just acting. She seems to actually be good at reading John's emotional state.

Well, how about this for an idea? Maybe she just has the same ability as her older brothers ... to be observant. For all his self-proclaimed sociopathy, Sherlock would have been a pretty poor detective if he hadn't been able to deduce what people were feeling. He didn't have to understand or share those feelings, he just had to know how they motivated people. So, Eurus wouldn't have to know why John was glancing to one side; she merely had to notice that he was glancing to one side. Besides, there's no indication she thought he was hallucinating; she simply asked what he was looking at.

 

 

My argument wasn't that Therapist-Euros noticed that John was looking behind her. It was more she understood how he was looking.

 

Remember John said he was 'looking away'. However Therapist-Euros seemed to correctly state that John wasn't 'looking away'. Rather he was 'looking to'. So she realised that John was specifically looking at something behind her despite the fact there was just an ordinary wall behind her.

 

It sounded like Euros could identify that John was hallucinating someone, especially when you consider her next line: 'I think I am reminding you of your friend'. It looked like that Euros may have suspected that John was hallucinating Sherlock which isn't far off from the truth.

 

 

The middle far right picture looks like Mycroft as it depicts a fat figure which is dressed in the same clothes as Mycroft is in the other pictures (green shirt with blue pants). However I'm wondering if this figure is actually just a fatter Sherlock. The reason for this is because the hair is drawn with squiggly lines.

I wonder if, instead of a fat Sherlock, that could be Sherlock being boiled alive in a cauldron?  :o

 

Not sure if I understand this joke. How does being boiled alive make you fat?

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The solution to the indescribable shambles of S4 is very simple and Irish in origin, so there's a Moriarty context there, as well: boycott it!

Do NOT buy S4 in any form, be it DVD, BluRay or Amazon Downloads, Do NOT go to any further Sherlocked events, Do NOT buy any more memorabilia, Do NOT watch it if other stations broadcast it. Its ratings fell in Britain, let them fall worldwide!

Only then might they come to their senses again and start thinking about what made S1 and S2 into such hits, and they may, in time, come to their senses again, and not look for copy-cat copout solutions. Now that Mr Moffatt has been relieved of his duties on Dr Who, they will both have more time on their hands.

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Ratings did not fall.  They averaged 10 million views per episode.  I will be buying the DVDs and the steelbook and the new set.  Happily.  :D

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You're just getting that now? :p Seriously, the tip off for me was the flannel shirt, but I didn't get it either at first.

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I tend to think of Ajay and Culverton less as possible mirrors

Interestingly, they are mirrors in a different way as well (which is why this is brilliant writing - 'deep waters' here).  Culverton and Norbury are mirrors of Sherlock (as well as Eurus).  All of them are "monsters" - Sherlock is just "our monster".  All of them treat people as "things". 

 

Recall that Moffat has said all along that Sherlock is not a good person.  The whole of the series is about him learning to be a good person.

 

Ajay is the "monster" created out of trauma - just like Sherlock.  Norbury was jealous of others.  She was not Amo (Love) - she was not acting selflessly, but selfishly.  Sherlock doesn't love people (in general).  He loves the game.  He loves beating other people.  He loves -beating- the competition. "Vivian Norbury - who outsmarted them all.  All except Sherlock Holmes."  He plays the game for himself.  It is all about his Ego.  And Ego is the killer.  It is the "signature in human destruction". 

 

That is the lesson Sherlock learns at the end of T6T. 

 

We see in TLD (and TFP) he now plays the game for love of others, not for love of himself.  His Ego - he himself - is no longer the end.  As we see in TLD, he is willing to die to save Watson.  The game is about Watson, not about Sherlock.  Watson is the end - the purpose - the meaning of the game.  Others are now why he plays the game.  And, if that wasn't clear in TLD, Watson makes it explicit in TFP:  "No. We are not competing.  There is a plane in the air about to crash.  What we're doing is actually trying to do is save a little girl.  Today we have to be soldiers, Mycroft.  Soldiers.  And that means to hell with what happens to us." which Sherlock later affirms.  "Soldiers." 

 

He stops playing the game.  He stops trying to "beat" Eurus.  That is when he decides to sacrifice himself. (A mirror of Moriarty here - the difference is that Moriarty kills himself to one up Sherlock - to beat Sherlock in their competition.  He will kill himself out of Ego.  Sherlock, here, will kill himself to save his friends, not to 'win the game'.  He will kill himself, not for himself, but for his friends.  He will kill himself out of selfless love.)

 

That is Sherlock having learned NOT to be a monster any more.  That is Sherlock having learned to be a human being.

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The side of Eurus that is looking for connection- for example the piano exchange, the way she gives up at the end- I find it really hard to trust. Part of my brain is just saying 'it's a trap'- even now- and that in the end she got what she wanted, which was proximity to Sherlock, but we still don't know what she will use that proximity for, and the purpose may not be innocuous.

Same here. From what little I know about it, once a psychopath, always a psychopath. There is no cure, only containment. So even if she is looking for a human connection, getting one is not going to change what she is ... a homicidal  maniac. They even say something to that effect at the end, as she's being led away.

 

But Sherlock tries to make a connection with her anyway, through music, because he's learned mercy. Better even that little interaction than simply locking her away, as was Mycroft's more unfeeling solution.

 

Then again, when I think about how she set herself up at a remove to Sherlock- behind a screen, from a distance, it does seem like she was possibly afraid that if she got too close to him, she wouldn't be able to go through with her experiments. She wanted to watch his reactions as a detached doctor, not a sister.

Or was that just part of her power play?

 

 

But since you mention mirroring, I find it interesting that when Eurus and Moriarty meet, they literally mirror each other's movements. Although I thought, when I first saw it, that was really meant to convey a form of sex.

 

That is what I thought too. Imagine the children!

 

I'd rather not. But maybe Rosie really does have a 666 on her forehead? :P At last, we've found the connection between Mary and Moriarty! :D

 

Though, did we really see the extent of Moriarty and Eurus' contact? If she was in control of Sherrinford, how long was she in control for, and how much access had she to the real world?

That's what I want to know! Apparently she could come and go at will for at least a year or so? So she must have been in control for longer. Did the Governor mention when he started interviewing her? Or maybe it was supposed to go all the way back to Moriarty's visit ... but I still don't see how he helped her. Seems to me all he did was make those silly videos.
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My argument wasn't that Therapist-Euros noticed that John was looking behind her. It was more she understood how he was looking.

 

Remember John said he was 'looking away'. However Therapist-Euros seemed to correctly state that John wasn't 'looking away'. Rather he was 'looking to'. So she realised that John was specifically looking at something behind her despite the fact there was just an ordinary wall behind her.

Yes, but again ... just because she realized he was looking at something, rather than away from something, doesn't mean she knew what he was feeling. I concede it's possible she did understand what he was feeling; I'm just saying that it's also possible she merely observed what he was doing and drew her conclusions.

 

It sounded like Euros could identify that John was hallucinating someone, especially when you consider her next line: 'I think I am reminding you of your friend'. It looked like that Euros may have suspected that John was hallucinating Sherlock which isn't far off from the truth.

I don't think John was hallucinating. That's a rather literal read of the situation, but I doubt it's meant that way. What we saw was a visual representation of John's thoughts, and I seriously doubt John's speech to Mary at the end would have been literally made to her. This is classic Moffat, imo; he alludes to what is going on, rather than showing us directly.

 

But you can read it as literal if you like, it doesn't change the fundamental story. At any rate, when she says "I think I am reminding you of your friend," she's not referring to the "ghost" of Mary. She's referring to the fact that she is observant enough to see what John is doing. She is comparing her observational skills to Sherlock's. More foreshadowing.

 

 

 

The middle far right picture looks like Mycroft as it depicts a fat figure which is dressed in the same clothes as Mycroft is in the other pictures (green shirt with blue pants). However I'm wondering if this figure is actually just a fatter Sherlock. The reason for this is because the hair is drawn with squiggly lines.

I wonder if, instead of a fat Sherlock, that could be Sherlock being boiled alive in a cauldron? :o

 

Not sure if I understand this joke. How does being boiled alive make you fat?

 

I'm saying maybe he's not fat; maybe he's just inside a big, round cauldron, with only his head showing.

 

 

Ratings did not fall. They averaged 10 million views per episode. I will be buying the DVDs and the steelbook and the new set. Happily. :D

Actually, the reports I looked at, ratings did fall, by a million or so each week, iirc. But that hadn't taken into account yet the worldwide viewership, and certainly not sales. But I suspect those will be down too. Not enough to kill it, though.

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I tend to think of Ajay and Culverton less as possible mirrors

 

Interestingly, they are mirrors in a different way as well (which is why this is brilliant writing - 'deep waters' here).  Culverton and Norbury are mirrors of Sherlock (as well as Eurus).  All of them are "monsters" - Sherlock is just "our monster".  All of them treat people as "things".  Ajay is the "monster" created out of trauma - just like Sherlock.  Norbury was jealous of others.  She was not Amo (Love) - she was not acting selflessly, but selfishly.  Sherlock doesn't love people (in general).  He loves the game.  He loves beating other people.  He loves -beating- the competition. "Vivian Norbury - who outsmarted them all.  All except Sherlock Holmes."  He plays the game for himself.  It is all about his Ego.  And Ego is the killer.  It is the "signature in human destruction".  That is the lesson Sherlock learns at the end of T6T.  We see in TLD (and TFP) he now plays the game for love of others, not for love of himself.  His Ego - he himself - is no longer the end.  As we see in TLD, he is willing to die to save Watson.  The game is about Watson, not about Sherlock.  Watson is the end - the purpose - the meaning of the game.  Others are now why he plays the game.  And, if that wasn't clear in TLD, Watson makes it explicit in TFP:  "No. We are not competing.  There is a plane in the air about to crash.  What we're doing is actually trying to do is save a little girl.  Today we have to be soldiers, Mycroft.  Soldiers.  And that means to hell with what happens to us." which Sherlock later affirms.  "Soldiers." 

 

He stops playing the game.  He stops trying to "beat" Eurus.  That is when he decides to sacrifice himself. (A mirror of Moriarty here - the difference is that Moriarty kills himself to one up Sherlock - to beat Sherlock in their competition.  He will kill himself out of Ego.  Sherlock, here, will kill himself to save his friends, not to 'win the game'.  He will kill himself, not for the game, but for his friends.  He will kill himself out of selfless love.)

 

That is Sherlock having learned NOT to be a monster any more.  That is Sherlock having learned to be a human being.

 

 

Yeah, that rings true to me. Especially when I remember that Moffat himself called Sherlock "a bad man", or something like that, which at the time I thought was a strange thing to say about a man who had repeatedly put his life on the line for his friends. But I see your point ... for Sherlock, it wasn't just about saving his friends, it was also still about winning the game. Nice observation!

 

Hope that doesn't mean he's going to stop loving the game, though. A man should enjoy his profession! :smile:

 

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My argument wasn't that Therapist-Euros noticed that John was looking behind her. It was more she understood how he was looking.

 

Remember John said he was 'looking away'. However Therapist-Euros seemed to correctly state that John wasn't 'looking away'. Rather he was 'looking to'. So she realised that John was specifically looking at something behind her despite the fact there was just an ordinary wall behind her.

 

It sounded like Euros could identify that John was hallucinating someone, especially when you consider her next line: 'I think I am reminding you of your friend'. It looked like that Euros may have suspected that John was hallucinating Sherlock which isn't far off from the truth.

 

 

 

But she was wrong. Sherlock earlier was right about a hallucinating of John.

 

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Moffat said that "sometimes the very very best thing you do is a last-minute improv. For instance, we very much love the Molly Hooper scene in the Final Problem, and that's the last thing we wrote, because nobody liked the original scene, and everyone thought it was rubbish, apart from me and Mark, who said it was wonderful. But eventually we gave in and wrote a different scene. I think it's the best thing in it, and that was the eleventh hour."

http://www.tcs.cam.ac.uk/culture/0036527-moffat-and-gatiss-on-sherlock-representation-and-box-ticking.html

 

The geniuses at their best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Sorry sfmpco, but the actual viewing ratings on first BBC broadcast fell from 8.1 million on January 1st, to about 6.5 million by TFP.

Of course, that is by no means a conclusive number, given the re-watch possibility of the iPlayer in the U.K. and a similar service for PBS, but it is indicative. And in my classes, the youngsters are either divided about the whole thing, or completely indifferent to it.

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Another snippet about the plan

big-grin.gif
 

Some of the elements, from Redbeard to the water motif, extend back further into the series. How long did you know about the major elements of this finale? 
We started talking about him having a sister fairly early on. What if Sherlock had a sister? What would that be like? But we didn’t take it madly seriously. During the planning of [season] 3 we came up with the plotline that we wanted to do. But there are elements from it we’ve been kicking around forever. Some of them have accidentally worked out well. If you go back to “A Scandal in Belgravia” and look at Mark Gattis when he reflects that Sherlock originally wanted to be a pirate but suddenly looks very sad and haunted, it’s very much a long game.

from http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/16/sherlock-showrunner-season-4-finale/

 

Ah, the accidents. The lazy universe.

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If there is something fans seem upset about with this episode it’s that there’s no resolving scene with Molly after that very effective devastating call to her while she’s in the kitchen. Did you consider doing one? Is it fair to leave her that like that? 
But that’s not how we leave her. People need to learn to face their televisions, we see her later on–

We see her skipping into the room but
She gets over it! Surely at a certain point you have to figure out that after Sherlock escapes tells her, “I’m really sorry about that, it was a code, I thought your flat was about to blow up.” And she says, “Oh well that’s okay then, you bastard.” And then they go back to normal, that’s what people do. I can’t see why you’d have to play that out. She forgives him, of course, and our newly grown-up Sherlock is more careful with her feelings in the future. In the end of that scene, she’s a bit wounded by it all, but he’s absolutely devastated. He smashes up the coffin, he’s in pieces, he’s more upset than she is, and that’s a huge step in Sherlock’s development. The question is: Did Sherlock survive that scene? She probably had a drink and went and shagged someone, I dunno. Molly was fine.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/16/sherlock-showrunner-season-4-finale/

 

Haha! Fantastic.

It's not only about love, it's also about sex between Sherlock and Molly. They said to each other i love you but the way they did that! If at that moment they were close to each other, alone with each other, than the coffin would be not to pieces I think.

 

You’ve said you originally had a completely different scene originally for that Molly sequence that you scrapped, what was it?
It was a rather boring one in retrospect. It was clever — Molly was actually trapped inside the coffin and they had to solve a puzzle to get her out. But while it was a clever puzzle and we liked it, we were the only ones who liked it. It was just another puzzle and it wasn’t something Euros would be particularly interested in putting Sherlock through because she’s more interested in the emotional then why he’s clever. So we scrapped it and I’m glad we did because I rather like the replacement scene.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/16/sherlock-showrunner-season-4-finale/

 

Interesting!

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excuus
 

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Oooh, a fellow Dutch speaker hi there *waves*

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Oooh, a fellow Dutch speaker hi there *waves*

 

Hoi hoi! :)

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Hallo!

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I just noticed that the vote can be changed! I changed it from 3/10 to 10/10.

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That's interesting! Although the majority of the fans is made up of females, a male perspective helps to clarify matters. And by the way, the TFP actual viewing public was 5.9 million down from 8.1 !

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I don't see Molly as being devastated after the call with Sherlock.  Although the call  was very unsettling, she did smile a bit when he first said ILY.  Of course their conversation would have been cut off immediately after she said it.  I would think she would be very curious what all that was really about.

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