Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[gerry]

I don't see Molly as being devastated after the call with Sherlock. Although the call was very unsettling, she did smile a bit when he first said ILY. Of course their conversation would have been cut off immediately after she said it. I would think she would be very curious what all that was really about.

In the moment, it must have felt humiliating. I don't know about devastated after but I'd think it would change their friendship going forward. In real life when something like this happens, where one person admits to being in love to the object of that love and it's not reciprocated likewise, then usually that friendship ends (maybe not right away) because it's awkward for both and it's not like you can unhear the declaration. Basically at that point, both people in the friendship have to pick a lane and there's usually no going back once you choose.

[sfmpco]

Except that I think he meant it the second time.  And the fact that she is big smiles and very happy when entering 221B as she heads towards where he was standing says a lot.

 

[gerry]

Except that I think he meant it the second time. And the fact that she is big smiles and very happy when entering 221B as she heads towards where he was standing says a lot.

That's the problem without a follow up scene in the show, there's no way of knowing if Sherlock decided he reciprocated. I'm sure the show left it ambiguous on purpose so you can infer anything you want. They don't have to decide what the resolution of that scene was unless there are future episodes.

 

Personally, I think the only purpose of the ending scenes was to show all characters as happy in case it ends up being the series finale. Given that LB gave that goodbye Molly twitter post, I always thought those on the show are very unsure of there being more episodes. I'm actually annoyed the Molly scenes were so ambiguous because if there are no more shows, why not have made a definitive story decision regarding the two characters?

[sfmpco]

I will say that I miissed seeing Donovan and Anderson in S4.

[sfmpco]

 

Except that I think he meant it the second time. And the fact that she is big smiles and very happy when entering 221B as she heads towards where he was standing says a lot.

That's the problem without a follow up scene in the show, there's no way of knowing if Sherlock decided he reciprocated. I'm sure the show left it ambiguous on purpose so you can infer anything you want. They don't have to decide what the resolution of that scene was unless there are future episodes.

 

Personally, I think the only purpose of the ending scenes was to show all characters as happy in case it ends up being the series finale. Given that LB gave that goodbye Molly twitter post, I always thought those on the show are very unsure of there being more episodes. I'm actually annoyed the Molly scenes were so ambiguous because if there are no more shows, why not have made a definitive story decision regarding the two characters?

 

 

The only actor to officially say goodbye was Abbington when she tweeted that it was a "golden wrap" meaning that she had done her last episode ever.  It is unknown if the series will continue.

[gerry]

 

 

 

Except that I think he meant it the second time. And the fact that she is big smiles and very happy when entering 221B as she heads towards where he was standing says a lot.

That's the problem without a follow up scene in the show, there's no way of knowing if Sherlock decided he reciprocated. I'm sure the show left it ambiguous on purpose so you can infer anything you want. They don't have to decide what the resolution of that scene was unless there are future episodes.

 

Personally, I think the only purpose of the ending scenes was to show all characters as happy in case it ends up being the series finale. Given that LB gave that goodbye Molly twitter post, I always thought those on the show are very unsure of there being more episodes. I'm actually annoyed the Molly scenes were so ambiguous because if there are no more shows, why not have made a definitive story decision regarding the two characters?

The only actor to officially say goodbye was Abbington when she tweeted that it was a "golden wrap" meaning that she had done her last episode ever. It is unknown if the series will continue.

This was a form of goodbye:

https://mobile.twitter.com/louisebrealey/status/760542010268868608?lang=en

[sfmpco]

She doesn't know if it's over.  Only the BBC knows.  It's just for now.

[gerry]

I didn't say it was definitive, only that they're unsure. It seems to me this is the most unsure they've been. You can tell from the writing (i.e. There were no cliffhangers like other seasons) that nobody knows if the scheduling will work or it's not definitely planned as of now.

[bedelia1984]

Even if the BBC don't renew (which they would be mad if they don't) there is always the possibility of a special run on Netflix or something similar. So if they all still want to, they will likely be able to do something more.

[sfmpco]

This might help.  It might not.

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/88541796/Sherlock-creator-Mark-Gattis-on-the-series-Its-like-bottled-lightning

[Surelock]

Despite the fact I didn't like most of Season 4, I'm starting to have Sherlock withdrawal. What else can I watch? I want something which is similar to Sherlock in at least some sense.

 

I've tried both Elementary and House M.D. but I don't think either of them are anywhere near as good. They both have the problem of having too many episodes that just drag plot points along rather than dealing with them concisely like they are in Sherlock. I think the concise structure of Sherlock is one of the reasons why character development moments in Sherlock work so well. With a short episode count, Moffatiss can keep the moment in a character arc up. That can make the moment much better e.g. Sherlock and John's hug in The Lying Detective. In other shows, usually the momentum gets lost when the story starts to drag on. 

 

I think the concise structure also prevents reveals that have the potential to be disappointing from being as disappointing as they can possibly be. An example of this would be the reveal of Euros as the girl on the plane. If The Final Problem's story had been dragged out in several episodes like most other series, then I think that reveal would have been more disappointing.

 

Honestly I hate shows that drag on with hundreds and hundreds of episodes. I just don't see how you can make each and every episode in a hundred episode series stand out. I think you can only do that without a small episode count. This is why Sherlock is one of the only series which has episodes that I can rewatch. All the episodes stand out and have something special to offer even the episodes in Season 4.

 

I've considered trying Doctor Who because it has the same creators as Sherlock but I'm not sure. Doctor Who looks a bit too wacky/cartoon-y for me. I consider myself to be a very logical person so I'd like a show which tries to follow a logic fairly well. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic but it needs to be consistent and believable within its own universe.

 

 

 

[sfmpco]

I don't hate S4.  I'm still processing it.  There are some awfully good things in it, but it's still new and unfamiliar territory.  

 

These episodes aren't made in a vacuum, as some may think.  The stories are pitched and have to be approved for funding.  And the actors and those involved have approve.  I'm sure if BC and MF thought the ideas and trajectories of the characters were rubbish, they would have said so and not agreed to do it until a suitable idea had been created.  They certainly don't need the work or the paycheck.  

 

At the heart, as Mofftiss has said many times, this is NOT a detective show but a show ABOUT a detective.  So we got a LOT of the ABOUT in S4, especially in TFP.  About is always more interesting anyhow.  If you want episodic crime cases being solved each week, watch CSI. The fandom has been clamoring for more back story, and when it is given, some like it and some don't.  It doesn't matter.  It is what it is, and it is what the creators and the actors agreed to make together.  We the audience don't get a vote on their creative process and collaboration.

 

Do I think everything falls perfectly into place with Eurus? Nope.  I'd like to see Mofftiss answer some questions about how she fits into all the previous series.  How long has she been getting out?  Why is she making contact now?  Where is she getting money for cab fare, clothes, etc.   How much does she know about Sherlock's public and private life?  Did she influence Moriarty or did he her?  Or were they just kindred spirits who immediately understood each other's psyches? Some of these questions may not get answered because another series is coming.  Maybe someone who goes to a SHERLOCKED convention will ask it.   I actually got a bit bored and annoyed with her monotone when she was putting the boys through those tests, but I was less bored on the 2nd and 3rd viewings, the 3rd being in the cinema.  

 

I loved seeing a bit of Molly's flat.  It gave her character more context.  I loved seeing more of Mycroft's flat also, and I loved seeing him watch a movie and get into it in his delicious, quiet moment.  I loved the childhood flashbacks.  I loved the parents giving Mycroft what for at the end and bringing him down a few pegs while building Sherlock up.  I love the ILY scene - it was the most intense of the trials.  I love the happy ending.  I love Sherlock going to see Eurus and literally "playing" with her.

 

[Loekie]

 

I don't see Molly as being devastated after the call with Sherlock. Although the call was very unsettling, she did smile a bit when he first said ILY. Of course their conversation would have been cut off immediately after she said it. I would think she would be very curious what all that was really about.

In the moment, it must have felt humiliating. I don't know about devastated after but I'd think it would change their friendship going forward. In real life when something like this happens, where one person admits to being in love to the object of that love and it's not reciprocated likewise, then usually that friendship ends (maybe not right away) because it's awkward for both and it's not like you can unhear the declaration. Basically at that point, both people in the friendship have to pick a lane and there's usually no going back once you choose.

 

 

You do not know those songs with the phrase: say you love me, even though you do not mean it?

She was becoming a real jitterbug and this was all she needed.

 

Example:

Tell me you love meIf you don't then lieOh lie to me

True love - Coldplay

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear Surelock, first off there are both the Rathbone and Granada Jeremy Brett adaptations.

In the same vein, you have the whole DCI Morse series, the whole follow-up DI Lewis series, two wonderful barrister adaptations of Sherlockian themes, Rumpole of the Bailey and Kavanagh Q.C, and Lord Peter Wimsey and Albert Campion series, all with their faithful sidekicks, murder mysteries and tight plots.

Then, there are the Adam Dalgliesh series, the Father Brown ones, where the quotations about hiding a pebble in a beech and a tree in a forest, not to mention hiding in plain sight come from.

All four of the major Dostoyevsky adaptations, namely Crime and Punishment, The Devils, The Idiot, and the Brothers Karamazov are murder mysteries.

Even Charles Dickens' Bleak House is a murder mystery.

And then there's Agatha Christie, with her Poirot and Marple crime mysteries. You can also watch Foyle's War set in the same period.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

I can't quite follow you as to why Sherlock would act ignorant here... That hardly seems helpful in getting John to let go of his anger and forgive him

It is like in TLD.  In both, he must get John past being angry.  He has to expend his rage.  It must be released rather than repressed.  Once he has released it, he can move past it - as we see happens in both.  That is John's nature.

 

 

Okay, I understand what you mean now I just don't read the same into TEH, because Sherlock seemed so much more clueless back then.

[Redbeard]

Dear Surelock, first off there are both the Rathbone and Granada Jeremy Brett adaptations.

In the same vein, you have the whole DCI Morse series, the whole follow-up DI Lewis series, two wonderful barrister adaptations of Sherlockian themes, Rumpole of the Bailey and Kavanagh Q.C, and Lord Peter Wimsey and Albert Campion series, all with their faithful sidekicks, murder mysteries and tight plots.

Then, there are the Adam Dalgliesh series, the Father Brown ones, where the quotations about hiding a pebble in a beech and a tree in a forest, not to mention hiding in plain sight come from.

All four of the major Dostoyevsky adaptations, namely Crime and Punishment, The Devils, The Idiot, and the Brothers Karamazov are murder mysteries.

Even Charles Dickens' Bleak House is a murder mystery.

And then there's Agatha Christie, with her Poirot and Marple crime mysteries. You can also watch Foyle's War set in the same period.

 

Just yes on the Jeremy Brett series...I adore that series.  I can easily see that Sherlock being our Sherlock older and living in Victorian England lol.  It's a faithful adaption and so fun.  

 

Also, Inge, on the Dostoyevsky adaptions, are there specific versions you're talking about?  Modern ones?  Just curious all I have ever seen is a Brothers Karamazov that was made in the 50's or something, if I am even remembering it right.  Would love to see others...anything Dostoyevsky.  Help?

[J.P.]

Despite the fact I didn't like most of Season 4, I'm starting to have Sherlock withdrawal. What else can I watch? I want something which is similar to Sherlock in at least some sense.

 

I've considered trying Doctor Who because it has the same creators as Sherlock but I'm not sure. Doctor Who looks a bit too wacky/cartoon-y for me. I consider myself to be a very logical person so I'd like a show which tries to follow a logic fairly well. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic but it needs to be consistent and believable within its own universe.

 

Hard. Very hard. Twin Peaks maybe, or LOST, but they both have very unsatisfying endings IMO.

If you are logical, you might have problems with Dr. Who. To me it feels a bit like the early Star Trek, but with more self-irony. I'm probably too old to really get into it.

[gerry]

Nothing really new but the article regardless.

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-25/mark-gatiss-and-steven-moffat-reveal-where-sherlock-could-go-in-series-5

[BLS_Pro]

More mirroring in the last season:

CORRUPTED MEMORY

"The virus in the data" - TAB
 

​T6T

The Thatcher statues are a ​callback to HOTB - a case where a man experienced such an emotional trauma, related to the murder of a loved one, that he repressed its memory, which became so "corrupted" that the man involved became a dog in the victim's mind.  This secret trauma caused him to isolate himself.  This person's entire life revolved on and changed with one name - "HOUND"

(Additionally, the callback itself is being triggered by one word - "MAGGIE", as in Thatcher)

 

TLD

Faith's case is one where a woman is subjected to a drug that represses the memory and "corrupts" it.  She is traumatized by fragments of a memory she cannot recall but believes to be related to the murder of someone.  This secret trauma caused her to isolate herself.  This person's entire life revolved on and changed with one name - "Anyone".

 

TFP

Sherlock's case is one where he experienced such an emotional trauma, related to the murder of his best friend, that he repressed the memory, which became so "corrupted" that the friend became a dog in Sherlock's mind.  This secret trauma caused him to isolate himself .  Sherlock's entire life revolved on and changed with one name - "Redbeard"

 

[BLS_Pro]

And more mirroring:
 

Sherlock's love is murdered (Best Friend)

John's love is murdered (Wife)
 

Sherlock withdraws from everyone, isolates himself emotionally, - is alone without love.

John withdraws from everyone, isolates himself emotionally - is alone without love
 

Both of them are in hell because of a devastating loss.

Both of them need to be saved from that hell.

 

In both cases, the love of the other is what saves them.
 

Both cases mirror the final case.  What they have done to save each other is what Sherlock does to save Eurus from her hell - from being alone without love.  He loves her.

 

[BLS_Pro]

More mirroring:

Smith:  "Once you've opened your heart, you can't close it again.  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  I'm kidding!   Hahahahahaha.  Of course you can."

Closing his heart is precisely what Sherlock had done after the trauma of his best friend's murder. 
And closing his heart is what Watson has just done after the trauma of Mary's murder.

[Inge l-w]

Dear Surelock and Redbeard, there have been fantastic adaptations of all four Dostoyevsky crime thrillers by both BBC and ITV in the last ten years, plus the recent Russian ones with English subtitles, which are available from Amazon! Loved the latest adaptation of both The Devils and the Brothers Karamazov!

P.S. in Wegothiscovered and Sherlockshome.net there are articles confirming that BBC has actually commissioned S5. Now, how to extract Benedict from his long-lasting Marvel engagements...

Could big brother Mycroft use his muscle with the CeNtral un-Intelligent Agency and extract 'brother mine' kicking and screaming to do it over the usual three months of filming?

Just a thought! ^_^

[Loekie]

Nothing really new but the article regardless.

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-25/mark-gatiss-and-steven-moffat-reveal-where-sherlock-could-go-in-series-5

 

Excellent, thanks.

[Boton]

 

Despite the fact I didn't like most of Season 4, I'm starting to have Sherlock withdrawal. What else can I watch? I want something which is similar to Sherlock in at least some sense.

 

I've considered trying Doctor Who because it has the same creators as Sherlock but I'm not sure. Doctor Who looks a bit too wacky/cartoon-y for me. I consider myself to be a very logical person so I'd like a show which tries to follow a logic fairly well. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic but it needs to be consistent and believable within its own universe.

 

Hard. Very hard. Twin Peaks maybe, or LOST, but they both have very unsatisfying endings IMO.

If you are logical, you might have problems with Dr. Who. To me it feels a bit like the early Star Trek, but with more self-irony. I'm probably too old to really get into it.

 

 

That is a tough one.  I think JP is right, the Dr. Who thing sort of depends on your position on logic; it's a lot less grounded (literally and figuratively) than is Sherlock.  If that's not something that bothers you, then there is a lovely character development arc between the Tenth Doctor (David Tennant) and his companion Rose Tyler that has some echos of a Sherlock and John relationship in some ways.  The relationship between the Twelfth Doctor (Peter Capaldi) and his companion Clara Oswald also has some of that depth.

 

Also, I've said before that House was my gateway into the Sherlock Holmes fandom, and I can't see why going from Sherlock to House wouldn't work just as well as going from House to Sherlock.  The bonus is, you'll see a few recognizable Holmesian names and plots turn up, plus the relationship between House and Wilson is, of course, the Holmes and Watson dynamic that we love.  If you are alert, you will see early on that House has his own Irene Adler, and, later, Wilson has his heartbreak with the death of his version of Mary Morstan.

[Surelock]

 

Dear Surelock, first off there are both the Rathbone and Granada Jeremy Brett adaptations.

In the same vein, you have the whole DCI Morse series, the whole follow-up DI Lewis series, two wonderful barrister adaptations of Sherlockian themes, Rumpole of the Bailey and Kavanagh Q.C, and Lord Peter Wimsey and Albert Campion series, all with their faithful sidekicks, murder mysteries and tight plots.

Then, there are the Adam Dalgliesh series, the Father Brown ones, where the quotations about hiding a pebble in a beech and a tree in a forest, not to mention hiding in plain sight come from.

All four of the major Dostoyevsky adaptations, namely Crime and Punishment, The Devils, The Idiot, and the Brothers Karamazov are murder mysteries.

Even Charles Dickens' Bleak House is a murder mystery.

And then there's Agatha Christie, with her Poirot and Marple crime mysteries. You can also watch Foyle's War set in the same period.

 

Just yes on the Jeremy Brett series...I adore that series.  I can easily see that Sherlock being our Sherlock older and living in Victorian England lol.  It's a faithful adaption and so fun.  

 

Also, Inge, on the Dostoyevsky adaptions, are there specific versions you're talking about?  Modern ones?  Just curious all I have ever seen is a Brothers Karamazov that was made in the 50's or something, if I am even remembering it right.  Would love to see others...anything Dostoyevsky.  Help?

 

 

 

Dear Surelock and Redbeard, there have been fantastic adaptations of all four Dostoyevsky crime thrillers by both BBC and ITV in the last ten years, plus the recent Russian ones with English subtitles, which are available from Amazon! Loved the latest adaptation of both The Devils and the Brothers Karamazov!

P.S. in Wegothiscovered and Sherlockshome.net there are articles confirming that BBC has actually commissioned S5. Now, how to extract Benedict from his long-lasting Marvel engagements...

Could big brother Mycroft use his muscle with the CeNtral un-Intelligent Agency and extract 'brother mine' kicking and screaming to do it over the usual three months of filming?

Just a thought! ^_^

 

 

 

 

Despite the fact I didn't like most of Season 4, I'm starting to have Sherlock withdrawal. What else can I watch? I want something which is similar to Sherlock in at least some sense.

 

I've considered trying Doctor Who because it has the same creators as Sherlock but I'm not sure. Doctor Who looks a bit too wacky/cartoon-y for me. I consider myself to be a very logical person so I'd like a show which tries to follow a logic fairly well. It doesn't have to be 100% realistic but it needs to be consistent and believable within its own universe.

 

Hard. Very hard. Twin Peaks maybe, or LOST, but they both have very unsatisfying endings IMO.

If you are logical, you might have problems with Dr. Who. To me it feels a bit like the early Star Trek, but with more self-irony. I'm probably too old to really get into it.

 

 

That is a tough one.  I think JP is right, the Dr. Who thing sort of depends on your position on logic; it's a lot less grounded (literally and figuratively) than is Sherlock.  If that's not something that bothers you, then there is a lovely character development arc between the Tenth Doctor (David Tennant) and his companion Rose Tyler that has some echos of a Sherlock and John relationship in some ways.  The relationship between the Twelfth Doctor (Peter Capaldi) and his companion Clara Oswald also has some of that depth.

 

Also, I've said before that House was my gateway into the Sherlock Holmes fandom, and I can't see why going from Sherlock to House wouldn't work just as well as going from House to Sherlock.  The bonus is, you'll see a few recognizable Holmesian names and plots turn up, plus the relationship between House and Wilson is, of course, the Holmes and Watson dynamic that we love.  If you are alert, you will see early on that House has his own Irene Adler, and, later, Wilson has his heartbreak with the death of his version of Mary Morstan.

 

 

Thanks for the recommendations. 

 

I'm already familiar with the Basil Rathbone and the Jeremy Brett adaptions.

 

I haven't heard of Dostoyevsky but I'll be sure to check him out.

 

 

 

One other thing I'd like to add is that when it comes to detective shows, I usually don't get invested in the detective unless he/she is a classical detective. By 'classical detective' I'm mostly referring to those detectives that were created around the time of the Golden of Detective Fiction. The most notable trait in classical detectives were their eccentric behaviours. There was always this intriguing aura around a classical detective because they didn't always behave the same way a regular detective would. Thus classical detective stories essential had two mysteries: 

 

1. The mystery the detective was trying to solve.

2. What methods that the detective would undertake to solve such mysteries.

 

^I think to make the most memorable detective stories possible you need to get the top two qualities done very well. 

 

This is why I think Sherlock Holmes books are considered to be the best detective stories. They nail these two qualities really well.

 

I'd say that the second most popular detective stories would be Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot. They're really good but if they have a weakness then I'd say it's that they're basically all murder mysteries. Not all the Sherlock Holmes books were murder mysteries. Some of them were just mysteries about strange incidents such as 'The Dancing Men' and 'The Red-Headed League'. So in terms of variety, the Sherlock Holmes books were just better.

 

There were other classical detectives like Miss Marple and Father Brown that were interesting characters but never really got to participate in very interesting mysteries. 

 

I also think one of the main reasons why modern fictional detectives aren't as well recognised as Sherlock Holmes and Hercule Poirot is because they're not eccentric. You see after the Golden Age of Detective Fiction ended, crime writers just stopped making their detectives eccentric. They started to make their detectives more normal and ordinary and this gave birth to the hard boiled/noir genre of detective fiction. 

 

I was never too interested in the hard boiled/noir detective because they just didn't have the aura of mystery around them that Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot had. However as far as I can tell, basically all modern fictional detectives are hard boiled/noir. It's like crime writers forgot how to write the classical eccentric detective after the Golden Age ended. I can't think of a single modern detective that's eccentric. 

 

This is why I'm not a big fan of modern detective shows like CSI, Twin Peaks etc. The detectives just aren't interesting. Usually I just looks up the episodes which have the best mysteries and watch them.