Episode 4.3 "The Final Problem"

[bedelia1984]

 

...

And frankly, I never thought Moffat was a misogynist; he and Gatiss have many times said they just want to have fun telling stories about their boyhood hero, and it so happens women aren't a part of that world. I don't mind. But they do call attention to their weaknesses in characterization when they write women, I'm afraid.

 

TBH, in lesser hands, I'm not sure Sherlock would've had as much personality as he does. BC manages to convey all manner of nuanced behaviors, motives and emotions that I'm not convinced are in the script. Although the Moftisses must have approved that approach to the character, or they wouldn't have hired the man.

 

I don't think Moffat is a misogynist either, I just find his characterisation of women a bit warped, as if it is somehow telling me disturbing things about his psyche that I'd rather not know.

 

I also think Moffat and Gatiss have quite different approaches to writing the female characters, you can't really tar them both with the same brush.

 

I had a point here about Molly, but will take it to the Molly thread, where it may prove more apt.

 

I liked both Eurus and Mary as characters, again I agree with what most people are saying about how they were made a bit too out-of-this-world super, but then that was a problem with the whole season, the plot, everything, and not just the women.

[Arcadia]

I don't think Moffat is a misogynist either, I just find his characterisation of women a bit warped, as if it is somehow telling me disturbing things about his psyche that I'd rather not know.

Yes, I think I know what you mean. I try not to think about it too hard.

[Surelock]

 

 

I appreciate the effort, if not the result. I find him pretty ham-handed about it; but then I probably would be too, if the shoes were reversed. I've tried to write & draw stories, and I've noticed my male heroes tend to be somewhat, er, effeminate. (That's one reason I used to love anime; the guys weren't so butch all the time!) 

 

And frankly, I never thought Moffat was a misogynist; he and Gatiss have many times said they just want to have fun telling stories about their boyhood hero, and it so happens women aren't a part of that world. I don't mind. But they do call attention to their weaknesses in characterization when they write women, I'm afraid.

 

 

The funny thing is that despite Moffat's efforts to prove his respect for women, I can still see some feminists finding fault in his writing.

 

I can easily see a feminist label Euros as a damsel in distress. She's a little sister that needs to be saved by her big brother. She also is so obsessed with getting her big brother to play with her. Why doesn't Euros ever want to play with girls? Are girls boring? Why did Euros hide behind the mantle of a male villain like Moriarty? Euros said she was Moriarty's backup plan. So is that all Euros was? A plan to another man?

 

Similarly I can see Mary being labelled as a women in a refrigerator. In case you don't know 'women in a refrigerator' is a term given to a female character that dies to advance the story of a male character. Mary fits this label very well. She dies to advance Sherlock and John's relationship in some respect. 

[bedelia1984]

 

...

The funny thing is that despite Moffat's efforts to prove his respect for women, I can still see some feminists finding fault in his writing.

 

 

I can easily see a feminist label Euros as a damsel in distress. She's a little sister that needs to be saved by her big brother. She also is so obsessed with getting her big brother to play with her. Why doesn't Euros ever want to play with girls? Are girls boring? Why did Euros hide behind the mantle of a male villain like Moriarty? Euros said she was Moriarty's backup plan. So is that all Euros was? A plan to another man?

 

Similarly I can see Mary being labelled as a women in a refrigerator. In case you don't know 'women in a refrigerator' is a term given to a female character that dies to advance the story of a male character. Mary fits this label very well. She dies to advance Sherlock and John's relationship in some respect. 

 

 

And don't forget the 'feminists' with the pointy hats in TAB! Ahem. Though I'm not sure anyone here would suggest Moffat is adept at writing women respectfully. I think most of us do give him points for effort, though.

[Arcadia]

Exactly. I don't think he means to be actively anti-feminist; he's just a guy who writes what he likes, and apparently what he likes is kick-ass women. Nothing inherently wrong with that. I think his heart's in the right place. Or maybe I just make excuses for him because I think is wife is fabulous.

[Redbeard]

My favourite observation that she made  in the article was the one about how in season one he only knew a few words in German, and then in later seasons was fluent in Serbian. That's what the change was- the ascent into super-Sherlock.

 

 

 

She may be right on that point, although in fairness, it could be a mind palace thing...if he never had need to learn German he wouldn't have; or else promptly "deleted" it when it was no longer useful.  But if he was going to be sent to Serbia it would be useful and he would learn it quickly, I'm sure. 

[gerry]

Exactly. I don't think he means to be actively anti-feminist; he's just a guy who writes what he likes, and apparently what he likes is kick-ass women. Nothing inherently wrong with that. I think his heart's in the right place. Or maybe I just make excuses for him because I think is wife is fabulous.

I don't think it has anything to do with kick ass women. He also wrote Janine in HLV who wasn't a superhuman but a well rounded, if not gullible, woman. That's the problem with him. He's capable of writing better but often is too lazy to execute it consistently.

[Arcadia]

Oh, I think Janine was quite assertive too, in her way. That's what I really meant by kick-ass, although I was (like Moffat) going for the joke as well.

[sherlockandjohn]

Janine certainly showed that she wouldn't just lay down and cry, but stand up for herself... so, yeah, I'd agree. Not that there's anything wrong with crying, mind you, and that's probably how I'd have reacted

 

So, changed my rating of this episode and made it my favorite of series 4 after having just finished watching all of Sherlock once again. Where The Lying Detective impressed me most on the first viewing, The Final Problem has grown on me and become one of my favorites. It manages to keep me riveted throughout its 90 minute run, even after having watched it 4-5 times. It also has a great emotional balance, whereas The Lying Detective - while a great story - feels sort of depressing to me.

[Pamela]

I think my main complaint with this episode is the title itself. It's the first time they lifted a title whole from ACD without giving it a little tweak like they usually do (a la "A Study in Pink"). I admit, that offends me. This "The Final Problem" is, of course, nowhere close to ACD's "The Final Problem," and I guess I feel badly for him. To me, this is classic literature. Would someone take "Hamlet" and do something entirely different?

 

Okay, go ahead and hammer me. But this is my take on it.

[T.o.b.y]

Exactly. I don't think he means to be actively anti-feminist

 

Neither do I. In fact, my impression was that from series 3 onwards, they were trying to make the show more feminist and just weren't very good at it. Their approach is kind of clunky and clueless. I think they had better left well enough alone. At least their early female characters like Molly and Mrs Hudson and Sally Donovan were realistic and relatable.

 

It rarely does a work of fiction any good when the makers try to use it to prove a point about their values. I am perfectly happy with Sherlock as just a show about a remarkable being named Sherlock. All I ask is that my entertainment isn't blatantly misogynistic (or racist or any other unpleasant anti-ideology).

 

[Surelock]

I think my main complaint with this episode is the title itself. It's the first time they lifted a title whole from ACD without giving it a little tweak like they usually do (a la "A Study in Pink"). I admit, that offends me. This "The Final Problem" is, of course, nowhere close to ACD's "The Final Problem," and I guess I feel badly for him. To me, this is classic literature. Would someone take "Hamlet" and do something entirely different?

 

Okay, go ahead and hammer me. But this is my take on it.

 

In an interview, Gatiss said that they named it 'The Final Problem' so they could link Euros to how Moriarty kept using the phrase 'The Final Problem' in The Reichenbach Fall. 

 

I don't think Moffatiss were trying to live up to The Final Problem story. They were just trying to retroactively link Euros to Moriarty (in a similar way to how they retroactively linked Euros to Sherlock).

[Arcadia]

Okay, so does that mean we are supposed to think when Moriarty said "I did tell you what the final problem was, but did you listen?" that he was referring to what would go down in this episode?

[Surelock]

Okay, so does that mean we are supposed to think when Moriarty said "I did tell you what the final problem was, but did you listen?" that he was referring to what would go down in this episode?

 

Yes but I'm not sure how that works because I don't see how Moriarty told Sherlock about Euros.

 

In case you didn't notice in my previous post I was implying that Moffatiss clumsily linked The Final Problem with Moriarty's words in The Reichenbach Fall. This is similar to how they clumsily linked Sherlock's past with Euros. 

[Pseudonym]

It's them trying to be retroactively clever again and not quite pulling it off. Jeez, I liked these episodes first but the more I think about them the more I hate about them. 

[Arcadia]

Either I never knew or I've already forgotten ... have WE worked out what the Final Problem in this episode is?

[Surelock]

Either I never knew or I've already forgotten ... have WE worked out what the Final Problem in this episode is?

 

http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/92287.html

 

EURUS: I’m letting the water in now. You don’t want me to drown another one of your pets, do you? At long last, Sherlock Holmes, it’s time to solve the Musgrave ritual.

(Sherlock stumbles back from the screen.)

EURUS: Your very first case! And the final problem. (Her voice drops to a whisper.) Oh. Bye-bye.

 

The Final Problem is ironically also Sherlock's first problem: Euro's song puzzle.

[Arcadia]

I hope it's not "just" that.

[Redbeard]

It's the human condition of existential angst!  Haven't you been listening?!   :P

[Arcadia]

I saw, but I did not read. :p

[Harpo]

I did say I would log back in here to say which scene I had a 'walk on' part in. Well here I am. It's the scene where Sherlocks brother is held and escorted towards the exit of the Glass office, by two nurses in yellow scrubs. I'm the male one.

The office set was constructed entirely in the studio and the scene out of the balcony was a projected sea scene onto a large canvas as opposed to a green screen image. Gatiss is a real gentleman, as was 'the hobbit'.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Surelock]

I hope it's not "just" that.

 

http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/31651.html

 

JIM: MOFFATISS: I knew you’d fall for it. That’s your weakness – you always want everything to be clever.

[Surelock]

So I just typed a long post interpreting Euros and Moriarty's alliance but the forum keeps giving me an error when I try posting. Thus I've resorted to screenshotting my post and just posting the images instead:

 

[Pseudonym]

Holmes killing Holmes would also apply if Euros killed either of them or they killed her. 

 

Also do we know when Euros began taking her little sojourns out into the world? If it was before TRF there's no reason she couldn't have had a more involved meeting with Moriarty. 

[Surelock]

Holmes killing Holmes would also apply if Euros killed either of them or they killed her. 

 

True but I don't think those are likely possibilities because the games were about Sherlock and Mycroft and not Euros.

 

 

 

Also do we know when Euros began taking her little sojourns out into the world? If it was before TRF there's no reason she couldn't have had a more involved meeting with Moriarty. 

 

I'm not sure about that. Remember when Mycroft allowed Moriarty to visit Euros, Moriarty was still a low profile criminal. Mycroft said so himself that they didn't have any clear evidence against him at that point.

 

However by the time of The Hounds of Baskerville, Moriarty is a high profile villain and the government does have evidence against him as they have him locked up and are interrogating him for information about his network.

 

If Euros wanted to arrange another meeting with Moriarty via her sojourn, she would probably only be able to do it before the government had strong evidence against Moriarty. The reason for that is because all the people that Euros had brainwashed were working with the administration of Sherrinford. If Mycroft found out that someone from Sherrinford was contacting Moriarty then he would suspect that Euros had broken free. Euros didn't want to alert Mycroft of her plans so she would tell her sojourns to avoid any suspicious activity.

 

Also according the Governor implied that he started letting people see Euros after Mycroft let Moriarty see her. He also said that Euros had become much more active after then. I'd say Euros had started brainwashing psychologists etc after she met with Moriarty. This doesn't give her much time to send out a sojourn and arrange another meeting with Moriarty. I mean it must have taken a while for her to brainwash the top branches of Sherrinford. Moriarty probably died less than a year after meeting Euros.

 

So I think the post probable scenario is that Euros only met with Moriarty once for 5 minutes. I think that's the extent of their relationship.