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The Final Problem - how do we actually enjoy this episode? SPOILERS AHEAD :-)


T.o.b.y
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Agggh, I'm not supposed to be here! (You know you're obsessed when...)
 


I couldn't help but note, that in Mark's mind at least, John is NOT living at 221B.... :P
 

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... I would be far more upset if they had lowered the quality of the characterizations than that of the plots.

 

Amen!

 

I see no reason at all for it to be difficult to go on. Give the man a puzzle and let him go solve it, fer cryin' out loud. He's merely grown up now, not dead. Tell a new story. But I agree they don't need to continue; they've brought it to a good stopping point. And I hate to say this, but to my eye, everyone looks a little tired of doing it. Or maybe they're just tired, period. :smile:

 

Me neither!  And Moftiss seem to agree.  So what was this thing the actors kept talking about, that we'd see why it would be difficult for them to continue, at least for a while?  Was it the perennial Thing That Nobody Noticed?  :P

 

More later  -- gotta run!

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Well, I admit, the first time or two I saw it, I thought "That's it. It's done." But now that I've gotten used to it ... eh.

 

I think it's because it seems like they wrapped everything up in a neat bow, at first. Mary dead, everyone else happy, Sherlock acting all grown up now. But when you start to think about it, the only thing that's really different is that they look, act, and are older. But the relationships are basically unchanged, except that maybe John is even more of a brother figure now than he was before.

 

My advice to Moftiss would be, if you do come back, come back disguised as a different program. Oh wait, they've already done that with this season, haven't they? ;) But seriously, start over. Go forward from where you left off, don't keep dredging the waters of what was ... because we the fans ain't ever gonna be satisfied. Oh heck, they should just do what they want, we ain't gonna be satisfied anyway. :d

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... when you start to think about it, the only thing that's really different is that they look, act, and are older. But the relationships are basically unchanged, except that maybe John is even more of a brother figure now than he was before.

 

I respectfully disagree. The relationships are very much changed in, to me, very important and in most cases very satisfactory ways.

 

Sherlock is no longer under Mycroft's thumb. That is huge. He's kicked him out of his mind palace, he's told him, to his face, that he's beginning to doubt he's all that clever and he is asking other people to look after him now instead of being looked after by Big Brother all the time himself. Sherlock finally understands that Mycroft is only human like the rest of the world, that he is not, in fact, always right, that he makes mistakes, quite big ones sometimes, and that his advice is often rubbish, especially when it comes to dealing with other people. He no longer has any reason to feel inferior towards him.

 

Sherlock understands that Molly loves him. He might not return her feelings in a romantic way and he might not desire her body, but his respect and affection and gratitude for that love has grown large enough that he's an emotional wreck after having been manipulated into toying with her feelings. And this from the man who did nothing but toy with and exploit her feelings for six entire episodes, if not more!

 

Sherlock realizes and even (almost) admits that Irene Adler is one hell of a sexy woman and that he "loves to ignore her texts" as Moffat put it. He doesn't seem to be beating himself up over this weakness all day long, either.

 

He has finally learned that pretending not to know Lestrade's first name isn't funny any more.

 

And finally, Sherlock and John. You know, I am deeply sorry for all the fans who are so disappointed in how their relationship (hasn't) developed, but personally, I don't quite understand what all the disappointment is about. For me, their story is a love story and it's been a long, complicated, often stormy, very intense and finally rewarding one. They were never like the original Holmes and Watson until this point. Sherlock was awful to John until he returned from the dead and probably got the shock of his life in not being welcomed back with open arms and clapped on the back about how hilarious his little deception was and John mostly acted as if he'd rather have nothing to do with Sherlock and that he was drawn to his side against his will and better judgment.

 

It took Sherlock five episodes to so much as admit John was a friend. It took him three more to get to the point where he realizes they could, in the absence of a more accurate word to describe what they have, be called best friends. And it took the two of them three seasons and one Christmas Special to become the Holmes and Watson I grew up with - the unquestioningly loyal, unashamedly affectionate and inseparable companions who knew that they could rely on each other at all times, no matter what.

 

Maybe I am over-interpreting, but we've heard Sherlock yell "John!" pretty often now over the course of our fandom journey, because John has had to play the damsel in distress and awful lot and Mary wasn't exactly suited to relieve him of that duty. To me, it always used to sound not only like "oh no, here we go again, please stay alive" but also like "oh shit, I am feeling something for another human being and it scares me". In The Final Problem, Sherlock seems totally okay with feeling for other people. He wants to get John out of that well but he doesn't seem disconcerted any more that this is his top priority and that the knowledge of his friend being in danger is upsetting to him.

 

(Btw, every time I see an old episode now and John is decked out in explosives, held hostage by crazy Chinese gangsters or half-conscious in a bonfire, I will picture little Sherlock with his pirate costume running around in the tall grass looking frantically for Redbeard. And my heart will break. No wonder his feelings were themselves terrifying for him, they were associated with horrible childhood trauma and he didn't even remember why).

 

I don't think they are romantically involved or ever will be any more than I think the original characters were (meaning I'm like 98% sure but not completely because you never know) and it doesn't matter to me either. But if you want to imagine them kissing? I don't see anything in the ending that could stop you. Go right ahead.

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Toby, I love you. I could hug you so tight, you would turn blue. And that's me writing this. :D
 

Sherlock is no longer under Mycroft's thumb. That is huge. He's kicked him out of his mind palace, he's told him, to his face, that he's beginning to doubt he's all that clever and he is asking other people to look after him now instead of being looked after by Big Brother all the time himself. Sherlock finally understands that Mycroft is only human like the rest of the world, that he is not, in fact, always right, that he makes mistakes, quite big ones sometimes, and that his advice is often rubbish, especially when it comes to dealing with other people. He no longer has any reason to feel inferior towards him.

 

Now you made me want to invite myself into Mycroft's home (Before Lady Smallwood does it), for a tea, or even something stronger.

Then I would wrap him in a blanket, and…

…wrap myself into another, and we would sit at his fireplace, looking at the flames in silence. We two, the last of our kind.

 

Please, someone stop me, before I write a beeping fic! runaway.gif

 

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You know, just saying :whistle:, we have our very own Sherlock Fan Fiction subforum, so if you think that ao3 is too much of a hassle, you could just post it here, and it'd be just as nice and easy as starting any other thread. So what's stopping you? ;)

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For some, this might help (with that "enjoying part" of the thread title, I mean):

 

TFP finale with no voiceover and therefore clearer music

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Toby, I love you. I could hug you so tight, you would turn blue. And that's me writing this. :D

 

Sherlock is no longer under Mycroft's thumb. That is huge. He's kicked him out of his mind palace, he's told him, to his face, that he's beginning to doubt he's all that clever and he is asking other people to look after him now instead of being looked after by Big Brother all the time himself. Sherlock finally understands that Mycroft is only human like the rest of the world, that he is not, in fact, always right, that he makes mistakes, quite big ones sometimes, and that his advice is often rubbish, especially when it comes to dealing with other people. He no longer has any reason to feel inferior towards him.

Now you made me want to invite myself into Mycroft's home (Before Lady Smallwood does it), for a tea, or even something stronger.

Then I would wrap him in a blanket, and…

…wrap myself into another, and we would sit at his fireplace, looking at the flames in silence. We two, the last of our kind.

 

Please, someone stop me, before I write a beeping fic! runaway.gif

Please do, haha - I'd definitely read it. I'm not sure he'd appreciate being wrapped into a blanket though. He might fight you off with his umbrella sword ;)

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For some, this might help (with that "enjoying part" of the thread title, I mean):

 

TFP finale with no voiceover and therefore clearer music

 

How about a TFP finale with no music and therefore clearer voiceover?  :huh:

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You know, just saying :whistle:, we have our very own Sherlock Fan Fiction subforum, so if you think that ao3 is too much of a hassle, you could just post it here, and it'd be just as nice and easy as starting any other thread. So what's stopping you? ;)

 

Because I need a life beyond forum! That.

 

Seriously? I've tried. I have a story in my head, even wrote some fragments. But as soon as I try put it into words, it just fall apart. It brings that "failed writer" theme to the surface again. A bit not good.

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How about a TFP finale with no music and therefore clearer voiceover?  :huh:

 

You might want to ask the original poster on tumblr for this - what I know of video editing could barely fill a thimble, I'm afraid. :unsure:

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More than just settle back into their old places, they actively rebuilt their lair. They put the headphones back on the animal skull, they spray-painted the smiley back on the wall and they shot the holes back where they were. This is them actively choosing Baker St and their collaboration. It's no longer just the only option they have or a habit they can't break. It's a choice.

Yes. I'm very glad that the flat was burned down because it's nice to see them set it back again.

Thanks to you both for pointing that out.  I was kinda puzzled (and therefore a little upset) that they would blow up Baker Street, but now that you mention it, the restoration does make a nice point at the end.

 

And now that I've said that, I'm going to go over there now and probably find out that all hell has broken loose ... :blink:

 

Ow.. I haven't gone there since my last posting. Can I not go? At all????

I can't now. So maybe if I never go again, it will go away...?

 

I'm still too chicken.  Maybe we should start a "TFP Discussion for Cowards" thread?

 

Back when Tim first put up the TFP thread, I read the synopsis at the top, which he had apparently copied from IMDb (though they have a different one now):  "Holmes and Watson travel to Europe to escape Moriarty's vengeance."  Now it turns out that the word-for-word same synopsis appears on IMDb for the Jeremy Brett episode of the same name....

 

... that is awful, awful synopsis. Moriarty??? They are damned if it's right, and damned if it's not. Why would they write that?!?

 

Apparently someone accidentally copied the synopsis for the Brett "Final Problem" episode.  Simple human error.

 

If I were any more organized and/or better at programming, I might have long ago started a website for gen and canon-only fanfics; again, not because I dislike shipping fics but because ao3 is already swamped with those anyway, and variety is the spice of life.

 

Jolie_Black has a community on AO3.  It isn't strictly no pairings, but the pairings have to be directly supported by canon, so functionally most of these are Gen.

 

http://archiveofourown.org/collections/BBC_Sherlock_Fanfiction_for_Canon_Addicts

 

Also, maybe we could just start a thread on this forum, too?  It would be nice to have another place to reference when you want a Gen-only fic that doesn't end in some sort of physical relationship for somebody.  (So, what Warstan is really the only canon ship, right?

 

I believe someone also mentioned a "canon-compliant" website (or perhaps a seal-of-approval committee), which would approve only stories that are consistent with the aired Sherlock episodes (though they can of course diverge from subsequent episodes).  I'll see if I can find that.

 

I couldn't help but note, that in Mark's mind at least, John is NOT living at 221B.... :P

 

You mean the part about a knock on the door?  How do you know that's not the door to John's bedroom?  Or -- knowing Sherlock's disdain for propriety -- the bathroom?

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I believe someone also mentioned a "canon-compliant" website (or perhaps a seal-of-approval committee), which would approve only stories that are consistent with the aired Sherlock episodes (though they can of course diverge from subsequent episodes).  I'll see if I can find that.

No luck yet.  Did somebody mention it to me in a private message?  (Too bad that neither the forum search function nor Google will work in the message area.)  But I think I may have been thinking of the AO3 community that Boton mentioned above.

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... when you start to think about it, the only thing that's really different is that they look, act, and are older. But the relationships are basically unchanged, except that maybe John is even more of a brother figure now than he was before.

 

I respectfully disagree. The relationships are very much changed in, to me, very important and in most cases very satisfactory ways.

 

 

Okay, after reading your post, I respectfully disagree with me too. :Worship:

 

 

 

I couldn't help but note, that in Mark's mind at least, John is NOT living at 221B.... :P

 

 

You mean the part about a knock on the door?  How do you know that's not the door to John's bedroom?  Or -- knowing Sherlock's disdain for propriety -- the bathroom?

 

Context. ;)
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Maybe we should start a "TFP Discussion for Cowards" thread?

I thought that's what this thread was? :tongue:

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That seems to be what it's become. So you're saying I shouldn't feel guilty if I come here to explain some reason why I'm not super-keen on the episode?

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I couldn't help but note, that in Mark's mind at least, John is NOT living at 221B.... :P

 

You mean the part about a knock on the door?  How do you know that's not the door to John's bedroom?  Or -- knowing Sherlock's disdain for propriety -- the bathroom?

 

Context. ;)

Context?  :huh:  Pray tell, what context?

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That seems to be what it's become. So you're saying I shouldn't feel guilty if I come here to explain some reason why I'm not super-keen on the episode?

 

Well, it wouldn't bother me, but maybe I'm not the one to ask, since I've been insensitively happily romping through the other one. But I think maybe if you stay clear of all caps, you'll be fine.... :P

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... when you start to think about it, the only thing that's really different is that they look, act, and are older. But the relationships are basically unchanged, except that maybe John is even more of a brother figure now than he was before.

 

I respectfully disagree. The relationships are very much changed in, to me, very important and in most cases very satisfactory ways.

 

Sherlock is no longer under Mycroft's thumb. That is huge. He's kicked him out of his mind palace, he's told him, to his face, that he's beginning to doubt he's all that clever and he is asking other people to look after him now instead of being looked after by Big Brother all the time himself. Sherlock finally understands that Mycroft is only human like the rest of the world, that he is not, in fact, always right, that he makes mistakes, quite big ones sometimes, and that his advice is often rubbish, especially when it comes to dealing with other people. He no longer has any reason to feel inferior towards him.

 

Sherlock understands that Molly loves him. He might not return her feelings in a romantic way and he might not desire her body, but his respect and affection and gratitude for that love has grown large enough that he's an emotional wreck after having been manipulated into toying with her feelings. And this from the man who did nothing but toy with and exploit her feelings for six entire episodes, if not more!

 

Sherlock realizes and even (almost) admits that Irene Adler is one hell of a sexy woman and that he "loves to ignore her texts" as Moffat put it. He doesn't seem to be beating himself up over this weakness all day long, either.

 

He has finally learned that pretending not to know Lestrade's first name isn't funny any more.

 

And finally, Sherlock and John. You know, I am deeply sorry for all the fans who are so disappointed in how their relationship (hasn't) developed, but personally, I don't quite understand what all the disappointment is about. For me, their story is a love story and it's been a long, complicated, often stormy, very intense and finally rewarding one. They were never like the original Holmes and Watson until this point. Sherlock was awful to John until he returned from the dead and probably got the shock of his life in not being welcomed back with open arms and clapped on the back about how hilarious his little deception was and John mostly acted as if he'd rather have nothing to do with Sherlock and that he was drawn to his side against his will and better judgment.

 

It took Sherlock five episodes to so much as admit John was a friend. It took him three more to get to the point where he realizes they could, in the absence of a more accurate word to describe what they have, be called best friends. And it took the two of them three seasons and one Christmas Special to become the Holmes and Watson I grew up with - the unquestioningly loyal, unashamedly affectionate and inseparable companions who knew that they could rely on each other at all times, no matter what.

 

Maybe I am over-interpreting, but we've heard Sherlock yell "John!" pretty often now over the course of our fandom journey, because John has had to play the damsel in distress and awful lot and Mary wasn't exactly suited to relieve him of that duty. To me, it always used to sound not only like "oh no, here we go again, please stay alive" but also like "oh shit, I am feeling something for another human being and it scares me". In The Final Problem, Sherlock seems totally okay with feeling for other people. He wants to get John out of that well but he doesn't seem disconcerted any more that this is his top priority and that the knowledge of his friend being in danger is upsetting to him.

 

(Btw, every time I see an old episode now and John is decked out in explosives, held hostage by crazy Chinese gangsters or half-conscious in a bonfire, I will picture little Sherlock with his pirate costume running around in the tall grass looking frantically for Redbeard. And my heart will break. No wonder his feelings were themselves terrifying for him, they were associated with horrible childhood trauma and he didn't even remember why).

 

I don't think they are romantically involved or ever will be any more than I think the original characters were (meaning I'm like 98% sure but not completely because you never know) and it doesn't matter to me either. But if you want to imagine them kissing? I don't see anything in the ending that could stop you. Go right ahead.

 

 

Where is the 'love' button?! I need a love button!!!

 

Seriously, reading a post like this is absolutely fantastic, and I wish I could express myself as eloquently as you do, but I will have to make do with saying that I 100 % agree - with everyting! The character development on this show is incredible. It moves me so much, and TFP is deeply satisfying, because it does put the relationships into their right place for me. It also makes gives me a new perspective on Sherlock. I imagine him as a child, listening to his older brother talking about how it's best not to care so much. I picture him locking away his feelings and focusing on his brain work. I see him competing with Mycroft, feeling inferior, and finally having enough of big brother - and he finds himself a flat in London from which he can work, on his own, in a self-created job with no competition, and in which everyone is impressed by him. The fact that they are also appalled by him just makes it easier to remain detached.

 

It has made me realise that the building of the friendship between Sherlock and John was very slow... and that makes sense now. When I first watched TSoT, I was surprised that Sherlock didn't realise that he was John's best friend. And in TEH I was shocked that he couldn't see - at first - how badly he had hurt John. But now it all makes sense. Series 4 has just helped so many things fall into place for me. I gotta love it!

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Oh god, I hope not. He's just realized he's only human, that doesn't mean it's going to be easy for him to act like one.... :p

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I couldn't help but note, that in Mark's mind at least, John is NOT living at 221B.... :P

 

 

You mean the part about a knock on the door?  How do you know that's not the door to John's bedroom?  Or -- knowing Sherlock's disdain for propriety -- the bathroom?

 

 

Context. ;)

 

Context?  :huh:  Pray tell, what context?

 

 

That was a joke, son! XP7H9xQ.jpg

 

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We've been seeing this coming, right?

 

Actually, no. I've been thinking all along that Sherlock's fate was to end up alone and lonely. Now he texts a domin8trix and plays with babies, and just might have turned soft enough to be with Molly. No, really didn't see that coming at all, to be honest. What I expected was the Sherlock we saw facing down Ajay, declaring Mary was under his protection and acting like he could do it all, alone. Although I suspect that man is still there.

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