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J.P.

Side Effects (aka Collateral Damage) of "Sherlock"

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10 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Eh, then somebody else would have pilloried them for something else.

I have to admit, if it's something simple and boring as Toby says, then I think their smart move would be to come out and say so. It's the silence on the subject that makes it seem like there's something to hide. I'm not saying there is, but that's a really good way to make it seem like there is. Like Trump refusing to release his taxes. :rolleyes: 

Ah well. It is what it is. Oooops, but that's controversial too, isn't it? :wacko:

But haven't they said repeatedly that it was getting harder and harder to match everybody's schedules? And why flat out say there won't be any more episodes when they might like to keep their options open - who knows, in a few years, there might be time and inclination to revisit the series. 

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15 hours ago, J.P. said:

At least at the beginning, they all actually encouraged fanfics and re-interpretations. But always were clear that it's not their version. The stupid thing about JL is that there is a real message behind it and it gave many vulnerable young people hope. You remember that video I linked, full of youngsters explaining why JLCT is important? I cannot believe the makers didn't have any knowledge about this development. If I was in their shoes I would feel really bad for crushing their hopes. Dunno, maybe they should have changed their mind and make those people happy, because they seemed desperately needing it.

And that is, indeed, heartbreaking. The problem is, if you start down the road of changing your initial intent, then you will always have a population that is crushed by your work, and you won't have stayed true to your original vision. I always came back to the idea that they said they wanted to modernize Doyle's work so that it created the same response in people as the originals, so texting instead of telegrams. I think, for three seasons, they were successful. Then the pressure from fans became impossible to ignore (in my opinion), and you get something like S4, which certainly had something for everyone and so, paradoxically, nothing for anyone.

In some ways, a show like Elementary would have been perfect to portray a gay main character relationship, because it was positioned to simply be a Sherlock Holmes set in the present day (and not be a take-off on Sherlock), so it could have more easily flexed its trajectory to go that direction.

11 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I get all that, I just question whether it's in their best interests to go silent on the subject of their biggest hit. But what do I know, I don't work in show business; if nothing else, this whole tjlc business has shown once again how quickly public opinion can turn on you. Maybe they're all smart to disassociate themselves from it, I don't know. Not much fun for the fans, though. *sigh*

I think, once the fandom seemed to just flat out not believe any of the creators' messages about their work, it isn't worth sitting for the interviews any more. This is a place where I do blame the very vocal small minority of TJLC folks who harassed the creators. Once basically everyone from the show said "JL is not endgame," and these vocal fans responded by saying, "You're lying; JL is endgame and I'm certain of it because of the lighting on Sherlock's face at the end of HLV," it didn't make any sense to keep talking about the creation.

This would have been true with any segment of the fandom and any ship, but the fact that we were putting the creators in the position of saying "we are not portraying a gay partnership" over and over at a time when the culture as a whole is talking about gay representation makes this a minefield.

And I don't believe *for a second* that it is a scheduling problem that stopped the show.  If everyone wanted to continue, they would make it happen. "I'm sorry, but I already have plans" is what you say when you want to get out of something you don't really want to do. :D

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4 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

But haven't they said repeatedly that it was getting harder and harder to match everybody's schedules? And why flat out say there won't be any more episodes when they might like to keep their options open - who knows, in a few years, there might be time and inclination to revisit the series. 

I know, I know ... I'm just whinging. I miss the show. And I think I'm reaching the point where, if it's really over, I'm ready to move on to something else that will capture then break my heart. :wacko: 

Also, I think it's because I'm used to American television: when a series is over, it's over. If they decide to revisit it in a few years ... well, as far as I can recall, it's never been done. There might be a remake, with different actors etc. Or a retrospective. But just hanging it out in limbo like this ... nah.

I have to keep reminding myself to think of them more like theatrical releases than a traditional TV series. Those can go on forever! How many Star Wars movies have we had now? That also helps wave away some of the inconsistencies; if you think of each episode as being more like a self-contained story, and less like a continuation of the one before, then those "flaws" in Moffat's writing aren't as apparent (I'm referring to the video someone posted somewhere, sorry.)

4 minutes ago, Boton said:

This would have been true with any segment of the fandom and any ship, but the fact that we were putting the creators in the position of saying "we are not portraying a gay partnership" over and over at a time when the culture as a whole is talking about gay representation makes this a minefield.

Aha. Excellent point.

Quote

And I don't believe *for a second* that it is a scheduling problem that stopped the show.  If everyone wanted to continue, they would make it happen. "I'm sorry, but I already have plans" is what you say when you want to get out of something you don't really want to do. :D

Aha again. Yes, I remember, that was my initial reaction as well. If you want to do something big, you start making room for it in your schedule now, not just wait until you "happen" to have a free month. Which means that they actually are ... ahem ... lying. Geez louise, all these talented actors and writers, you'd think they'd be better at it than this....  :D 

Oh well, I forgive them. What they've created so far is dear to my heart, I'm not going to chuck that away just because they've heartlessly abandoned me ... wait, that didn't come out right .....

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20 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I know, I know ... I'm just whinging. I miss the show. And I think I'm reaching the point where, if it's really over, I'm ready to move on to something else that will capture then break my heart. :wacko: 

Also, I think it's because I'm used to American television: when a series is over, it's over. If they decide to revisit it in a few years ... well, as far as I can recall, it's never been done. There might be a remake, with different actors etc. Or a retrospective. But just hanging it out in limbo like this ... nah.

I have to keep reminding myself to think of them more like theatrical releases than a traditional TV series. Those can go on forever! How many Star Wars movies have we had now? That also helps wave away some of the inconsistencies; if you think of each episode as being more like a self-contained story, and less like a continuation of the one before, then those "flaws" in Moffat's writing aren't as apparent (I'm referring to the video someone posted somewhere, sorry.)

Aha. Excellent point.

Aha again. Yes, I remember, that was my initial reaction as well. If you want to do something big, you start making room for it in your schedule now, not just wait until you "happen" to have a free month. Which means that they actually are ... ahem ... lying. Geez louise, all these talented actors and writers, you'd think they'd be better at it than this....  :D 

Oh well, I forgive them. What they've created so far is dear to my heart, I'm not going to chuck that away just because they've heartlessly abandoned me ... wait, that didn't come out right .....

Arcadia,

The British TV industry and the American one couldn't be more different, and in the case of "Sherlock", I think this works in our favor.

When I first started watching British television series, it became immediately apparent that the Brits are far, far superior to Americans when it comes to delaying their gratification and managing their expectations.  I chalk this up to their long history of wars and various deprivations--most recently, two World Wars and the attendant rationing--and the whole stiff upper lip British ideal.  They are trained from birth not to expect Too Much nor be too impatient, and that helps them retain their sanity when confronted with the Ice Age pacing and miserly annual offerings from their favorite TV shows.  "Sherlock" and its ilk wouldn't even count as television series at all by the usual Yank standard . . they are more like 'Television Movie Events' . .or extremely limited miniseries that only come around every 2-3 years, kind of like a rare solar event.  Even American mini-series that run once for 5 nights, ala 'Shogun' or 'The Thorn Birds' have more running time than a Sherlock season.  A 'limited run' series of 8-10 hour-long episodes here is still double (or more than) the run of a regular 3-episode season on the BBC.  Heck, we've had American shows that have completely *failed* in their first season and were not renewed and still, they had vastly more run time than the entire run of Sherlock.

It's a quantity vs. quality proposition.  Ideally, we prefer both on this side of the Pond.  Our cousins across the way tend to go for quality parceled out in dribs and drabs.  Good old British endurance under duress.  Beloved comedy series The Vicar of Dibley (RIP, Emma Chambers) ran officially from 1994 - 2007, a grand total of 23 years and 20 episodes.  The first season ran for 5 consecutive weeks, and then all the subsequent ones were like, 2 episodes a year, spaced at 6 month intervals.  By contrast, American classic Gunsmoke ran for 20 years and 432 episodes.  More is more, that's the American way!  Apart from avoiding potential rioting in the streets which the '2 a year' programming mojo would likely cause, American network executives do not overestimate the American attention span.  A show that only aired twice a year would not survive here because people would give up on it, forget about it and move on.

Some years ago, Dick Wolf took his patented L&0 formula across the Pond for Law & Order: UK.  It was droll to see the British versions of Jerry Orbach, Benjamin Bratt & S. Epatha Merkerson.  Ben Daniels made for a very fine British Sam Waterston.  What the Brit actors had to get used to was the fast-paced on-the-move Wolf style of working.  Normally their homegrown dramas are more leisurely paced, leaving everyone time for ample tea breaks in the shooting schedules.  The British actors admitted that they were utterly exhausted by the rapid-fire pace . . .and they completed 13 episodes--or only half of a typical American series schedule.  Still, that was about 10 episodes more than everyone was used to cranking out on a single job commitment.  An interesting experiment, but I don't think L&O: UK went beyond a second season.  Leastways, no more than two seasons have ever been available to buy as far as I know.

The point of this windy story is that British shows routinely go on hiatus . . .and that hiatus can last for years at a time.  To the American mindset this means the show is dead in the water, but as far as the Brits are concerned, it's just a break to recharge the artistic batteries.  Inspector Morse 'officially' ended its run in 1993 after seven 'seasons' (of three or four episodes each).  Two years later the show returned with the first of five annual 'specials'.  This was arranged to accommodate John Thaw and Kevin Whately's schedules, since both actors wanted to do other things, but were willing to come back to offer their public one episode of Morse per year . .which was better than none.  I lean toward thinking that perhaps, given a couple of years to pursue other projects, Ben and Martin and the Mofftisses will agree to reconvene Sherlock in the same manner . . .one special a year, in the manner of The Abominable Bride.  We shall have to take what we can get, if that amounts to anything . .but I'd say it's much more likely to occur given the British elasticity toward show programming than it would be here.  Once Elementary gets cancelled, that will be it for Jonny & Co., but I sincerely hope we haven't seen the last of the Baker Street crew on the Beeb.  I am not holding my breath for any more 'regular' seasons of it, however.

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2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I know, I know ... I'm just whinging. I miss the show. And I think I'm reaching the point where, if it's really over, I'm ready to move on to something else that will capture then break my heart. :wacko: 

Also, I think it's because I'm used to American television: when a series is over, it's over. If they decide to revisit it in a few years ... well, as far as I can recall, it's never been done. There might be a remake, with different actors etc. Or a retrospective. But just hanging it out in limbo like this ... nah.

I have to keep reminding myself to think of them more like theatrical releases than a traditional TV series. Those can go on forever! How many Star Wars movies have we had now? That also helps wave away some of the inconsistencies; if you think of each episode as being more like a self-contained story, and less like a continuation of the one before, then those "flaws" in Moffat's writing aren't as apparent (I'm referring to the video someone posted somewhere, sorry.)

Aha. Excellent point.

Aha again. Yes, I remember, that was my initial reaction as well. If you want to do something big, you start making room for it in your schedule now, not just wait until you "happen" to have a free month. Which means that they actually are ... ahem ... lying. Geez louise, all these talented actors and writers, you'd think they'd be better at it than this....  :D 

Oh well, I forgive them. What they've created so far is dear to my heart, I'm not going to chuck that away just because they've heartlessly abandoned me ... wait, that didn't come out right .....

I doubt that Sherlock is "big" for people like the lead actors these days. They are getting major roles in huge Hollywood franchises. I can imagine that a little BBC series does fall under "when I have nothing better to do" and I wouldn't even blame them for it. 

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6 hours ago, Hikari said:

Arcadia,

The British TV industry and the American one couldn't be more different, and in the case of "Sherlock", I think this works in our favor.

When I first started watching British television series, it became immediately apparent that the Brits are far, far superior to Americans when it comes to delaying their gratification and managing their expectations.  I chalk this up to their long history of wars and various deprivations--most recently, two World Wars and the attendant rationing--and the whole stiff upper lip British ideal.  They are trained from birth not to expect Too Much nor be too impatient, and that helps them retain their sanity when confronted with the Ice Age pacing and miserly annual offerings from their favorite TV shows.  "Sherlock" and its ilk wouldn't even count as television series at all by the usual Yank standard . . they are more like 'Television Movie Events' . .or extremely limited miniseries that only come around every 2-3 years, kind of like a rare solar event.  Even American mini-series that run once for 5 nights, ala 'Shogun' or 'The Thorn Birds' have more running time than a Sherlock season.  A 'limited run' series of 8-10 hour-long episodes here is still double (or more than) the run of a regular 3-episode season on the BBC.  Heck, we've had American shows that have completely *failed* in their first season and were not renewed and still, they had vastly more run time than the entire run of Sherlock.

It's a quantity vs. quality proposition.  Ideally, we prefer both on this side of the Pond.  Our cousins across the way tend to go for quality parceled out in dribs and drabs.  Good old British endurance under duress.  Beloved comedy series The Vicar of Dibley (RIP, Emma Chambers) ran officially from 1994 - 2007, a grand total of 23 years and 20 episodes.  The first season ran for 5 consecutive weeks, and then all the subsequent ones were like, 2 episodes a year, spaced at 6 month intervals.  By contrast, American classic Gunsmoke ran for 20 years and 432 episodes.  More is more, that's the American way!  Apart from avoiding potential rioting in the streets which the '2 a year' programming mojo would likely cause, American network executives do not overestimate the American attention span.  A show that only aired twice a year would not survive here because people would give up on it, forget about it and move on.

Some years ago, Dick Wolf took his patented L&0 formula across the Pond for Law & Order: UK.  It was droll to see the British versions of Jerry Orbach, Benjamin Bratt & S. Epatha Merkerson.  Ben Daniels made for a very fine British Sam Waterston.  What the Brit actors had to get used to was the fast-paced on-the-move Wolf style of working.  Normally their homegrown dramas are more leisurely paced, leaving everyone time for ample tea breaks in the shooting schedules.  The British actors admitted that they were utterly exhausted by the rapid-fire pace . . .and they completed 13 episodes--or only half of a typical American series schedule.  Still, that was about 10 episodes more than everyone was used to cranking out on a single job commitment.  An interesting experiment, but I don't think L&O: UK went beyond a second season.  Leastways, no more than two seasons have ever been available to buy as far as I know.

The point of this windy story is that British shows routinely go on hiatus . . .and that hiatus can last for years at a time.  To the American mindset this means the show is dead in the water, but as far as the Brits are concerned, it's just a break to recharge the artistic batteries.  Inspector Morse 'officially' ended its run in 1993 after seven 'seasons' (of three or four episodes each).  Two years later the show returned with the first of five annual 'specials'.  This was arranged to accommodate John Thaw and Kevin Whately's schedules, since both actors wanted to do other things, but were willing to come back to offer their public one episode of Morse per year . .which was better than none.  I lean toward thinking that perhaps, given a couple of years to pursue other projects, Ben and Martin and the Mofftisses will agree to reconvene Sherlock in the same manner . . .one special a year, in the manner of The Abominable Bride.  We shall have to take what we can get, if that amounts to anything . .but I'd say it's much more likely to occur given the British elasticity toward show programming than it would be here.  Once Elementary gets cancelled, that will be it for Jonny & Co., but I sincerely hope we haven't seen the last of the Baker Street crew on the Beeb.  I am not holding my breath for any more 'regular' seasons of it, however.

Thanks, Hikari, that actually makes me feel better. I'm so used to seeing reruns of, say, Morse, all strung together in a continuous run on PBS, like it was a regular American series, that I'd quite forgotten it was rather intermittent as well ... by our standards. And you have to admit, by the time most American shows reach even their 100th (50th?) episode, they've pretty much run out of ideas. (Buffy excepted.) (Buffy's the exception to everything. :wub:) (And even their last season was pretty 'meh'.) At any rate, we don't want that to happen to Sherlock. So I shall take heart, stiffen my upper lip and soldier on into the unknown ....

I also just thought of an American show that was brought back after it was assumed dead ... X-Files. (Too bad Sittything isn't still active, she would have set me straight right away!) I don't know what that means, but, y'know, want to keep my facts straight. If possible. ;) 

By the way, you explained something MF said once: something about the pace at which they filmed "Fargo" -- he found amazingly fast, or something like that. Which surprised me, because I remember BC complaining saying :smile:once about the long hours they work in the UK, which I assumed meant they were filming  as fast as possible. It's all relative, I suppose.

4 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

I doubt that Sherlock is "big" for people like the lead actors these days. They are getting major roles in huge Hollywood franchises. I can imagine that a little BBC series does fall under "when I have nothing better to do" and I wouldn't even blame them for it. 

Oh, I meant "big" in the sense of needing to set aside quite a lot of time for it.

But since you bring it up ... I really don't think either of them has ever had a bigger hit than Sherlock. If exposure is what they're after, that's the place to be. (Okay, The Hobbit was probably bigger in one sense; but since it featured mostly orcs instead of hobbits, I'm not sure Mr. F's profile benefitted from it that much ... :P )

And I could even argue that neither of them has been in anything better than Sherlock, except that I haven't seen everything Martin's been in. But whether he likes it or not (and he seems not to), it's certainly been the career-making role for Ben. He shines in it like nothing else I've seen him in. On film. I suspect he's even more brilliant live. Alas, it's likely I will never know.

No, I tend to take them at their word ... they just don't want to be "stuck" doing the same thing for too long. Which I get completely, and I don't blame them either. As an artistic type myself, I quite respect that attitude. I'm just bummed because I want what I want, and when I want it. Which is new Sherlock, now. All the time. And yes, if I got it, it would ruin it. Bleh. Life's not fair.

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Well, maybe Sherlock Holmes carries a certain curse with him. As far as I know, Doyle would have preferred to be known for his other work as well and he also had to deal with expectations and pressure from fans - when he tried to kill the character off. 

Arcadia, I think my viewing habits and preferences are quite different from yours and that's why I am surprisingly okay with the situation. I do not enjoy the traditional TV series that go on and on with hundreds of episodes. I like stories and I like for them to have a beginning, climax and ending. I hate unfinished tales. And I particularly hate it when a show is dragged on and on well beyond its heyday. To me, that did happen to Buffy, I couldn't enjoy that one at all any more after a while. (The last straw was when they killed Tara.) X-Files too. 

The only serial productions I enjoy are miniseries with a clear ending (like The Office) or comedy shows that are more or less static. 

So Sherlock really fits my bill. 

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On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 4:53 PM, Arcadia said:

By the way, you explained something MF said once: something about the pace at which they filmed "Fargo" -- he found amazingly fast, or something like that. Which surprised me, because I remember BC complaining saying :)once about the long hours they work in the UK, which I assumed meant they were filming  as fast as possible. It's all relative, I suppose.

Given the very high level of skill evident on a typical British film/TV set, I wouldn't accuse their actors of slacking.  I'm sure the actors do put in long days--when they are working--which, I will (gently) point out is not fractionally as much as American TV actors are working on a series over here.  Though, with something like Sherlock, their 3 episodes translate more into three separate-but-interrelated feature films.  They've got a very narrow window of time to get all their shooting in.  But after that intensive batch of 14-hour-days . . .the program goes on hiatus for two years and they get a nice long rest.  Unless of course they are Mssrs. Cumberbatch or Freeman, in which case they go directly into the next insane project, like as not, in a foreign country.  But for other British actors not in their tier of demand (ie, the rest of the cast), they get to alternate these intensive periods of work with months of doing nothing, if that is their wish.

I think if Ben got a taste of working on the set of Law & Order or Elementary, or Grey's Anatomy,  which are contracted to churn out 24 - 26 episodes per season, he might readjust his idea of 'really long hours'.  Working on an established show with a designated studio 'home' and cast might be slightly more regular in hours.  It might not be a 14-hour day every single day.  But there are just so many *more* of them.  Typically an American television cast only gets about one month a year (August) to call their own, and the more rabidly ambitious or energetic among them might manage to squeeze a feature film into the 4-5 weeks of vacation time they get from their regular job.

A typical season of Sherlock or similar BBC sister show with 3 90-minute episodes runs for 270 minutes of screen time.  An American hour-long drama, (actually 42-43 minutes, to allow for commercial breaks, runs to well over 1100 minutes of screen  time per season.  If your show's successful, that's year-in, year-out of 11 months of work, often 14+ hour days too.  Sometimes 18+ hour days.  And everybody's got to look good while putting in these hours.  For 10 or 20 years, in some cases.  Everybody wants a bona fide hit show, but that is something of a double-edged sword for an actor, if it means that for the next 10, 15, 20 years, they will be doing this and only this.  Mariska Hargitay has been playing Det. Olivia Benson on L&O: SVU since 1999.  19 years, some 400+ episodes.  She's great in the role and obviously no one else could be Benson.  Ben might reflect upon Mariska's run and reconsider how tired he really is of Sherlock after a measly 13 outings. Mariska, like Lucy Liu over on Elementary juggles being the lead of a demanding show with directing multiple episodes per year, too.

Sorry, Ben . . .the Americans win the 'grind' honors . . (and these are ladies, bruh!)

**************

I think much of the credit (or blame) for the relatively easier pace of working in the UK is due, not to any prima-donna antics of the actors refusing to work hard . . (think of all the stage plays they do--now there's some hard work, because it's all live--no re-takes in the theatre) . . but rather to an incredibly strong trade union for the production crews.  I wouldn't think a British trade union would have anything over on an American one for the same industry . . .but I got to thinking this upon listening to Debra Messing's commentary to her film The Wedding Date.  This was shot on a shoestring budget by an American (female) director in various locations in London and the English countryside.   Director Clare Kilner crafted a charming rom-com confection that looks very expensive on very little money or experience, so well done to her . . but money was so tight, Debra Messing was wearing the director's own clothes for some scenes, and they had very limited opportunities to get some of the location shots.  One of these was at Heathrow airport.  It was getting on for 5PM and they had only enough time for one more take.  Whether they got the shot or not, they were going to have to pack up and go home, because their narrow window of time at the location was closing.  It was summer and they could have gotten a few more takes if they stayed slightly overtime . .but the British film crew were going to walk off the set at 5PM, whether they were finished to the director's satisfaction or not.  Union rules.  They got the shot.  But I can't imagine an American film crew just walking off the set at the jot of 5PM if it was clear there was still work to be done.  Yes, overtime would be paid, yes, there might be a negotiation with the union reps at the 11th hour . . but they'd stay until the light was gone or the director yelled 'That's a wrap!' . . Leastways, that's what I have always believed would happen.

 

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On 3/23/2018 at 7:19 AM, T.o.b.y said:

Well, maybe Sherlock Holmes carries a certain curse with him. As far as I know, Doyle would have preferred to be known for his other work as well and he also had to deal with expectations and pressure from fans - when he tried to kill the character off. 

Arcadia, I think my viewing habits and preferences are quite different from yours and that's why I am surprisingly okay with the situation. I do not enjoy the traditional TV series that go on and on with hundreds of episodes. I like stories and I like for them to have a beginning, climax and ending. I hate unfinished tales. And I particularly hate it when a show is dragged on and on well beyond its heyday. To me, that did happen to Buffy, I couldn't enjoy that one at all any more after a while. (The last straw was when they killed Tara.) X-Files too. 

The only serial productions I enjoy are miniseries with a clear ending (like The Office) or comedy shows that are more or less static. 

So Sherlock really fits my bill. 

Oh, I don't know that we're that different ... I hate unfinished tales too (assuming I liked them before they, er, unfinished. :D ) And I've given up on more than one show that dragged on too long. What's bummed me out is the lack of information, I think. Maybe it feels too much like being lied to? Also I've been very sleep deprived for far too long and I think it's affected my emotional state. Feeling a bit sorry for myself on a number of levels recently. Someone needs to do something nice for me, like give me a new episode of Sherlock ... :P 

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4 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Oh, I don't know that we're that different ... I hate unfinished tales too (assuming I liked them before they, er, unfinished. :D ) And I've given up on more than one show that dragged on too long. What's bummed me out is the lack of information, I think. Maybe it feels too much like being lied to? Also I've been very sleep deprived for far too long and I think it's affected my emotional state. Feeling a bit sorry for myself on a number of levels recently. Someone needs to do something nice for me, like give me a new episode of Sherlock ... :P 

Aw. All I can offer is this, I am afraid: :hugz:

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On 3/16/2018 at 1:22 PM, J.P. said:

Do you really think that if the show were still critically acclaimed by the general public and professional critics during/post season 4 or they still enjoyed the material that they wouldn’t find the time or interest to do the show?  I find it hard to believe they wouldn’t.  MF basically acknowledged the quality of the show in series 4 wasn’t the best then he went on to complain about the delusional johnlock shippers.  My guess is the former holds more weight than the latter.

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On 3/22/2018 at 10:12 AM, T.o.b.y said:

I doubt that Sherlock is "big" for people like the lead actors these days. They are getting major roles in huge Hollywood franchises. I can imagine that a little BBC series does fall under "when I have nothing better to do" and I wouldn't even blame them for it. 

It doesn’t seem like BC is only doing big productions post Sherlock though.  he did that a child in time movie that is about to air on PBS so it seems like he doesn’t necessarily think he’s too big for smaller productions but is more interested in finding roles he’s interested in.

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Gerry, I rather believe that the lower quality of S4 is a result of growing pressure, so everyone was tired and fed up and just wanted to end it ASAP, maybe even by squeezing planned storylines from two seasons into one. The lower quality is not the reason why they don't want to go on with the show, it's the other way round.

To me S4 feels like a panic attack.

But as I said, it's only my little conspiracy theory.

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That's exactly what I understood him to be saying the first time.

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16 hours ago, J.P. said:

Gerry, I rather believe that the lower quality of S4 is a result of growing pressure, so everyone was tired and fed up and just wanted to end it ASAP, maybe even by squeezing planned storylines from two seasons into one. The lower quality is not the reason why they don't want to go on with the show, it's the other way round.

To me S4 feels like a panic attack.

But as I said, it's only my little conspiracy theory.

The lower quality for me started in season 3 so I’d imagine they could see a decline in writing for awhile and for season 4 to have been a theoretical cram of two seasons or whatever they’d have had to decide season 4 was the end after season 3 or at the very least before season 4 was filmed.  However I still think if the general fans still liked it or critics received it well or the writing was still good they’d find the time to do another series despite the obnoxious fanatics.  

They’re pretty soft though if perceived fan pressure makes their writing worse.   Look at GoT and the expectations between series from fans.   There isn’t whining from the creators/actors of that show about fan expectations/theories or using that as an excuse for the quality of the show.  I’m sure that show also has crazy fans too as well. 

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On 3/21/2018 at 10:34 PM, J.P. said:

At least at the beginning, they all actually encouraged fanfics and re-interpretations. But always were clear that it's not their version. The stupid thing about JL is that there is a real message behind it and it gave many vulnerable young people hope. You remember that video I linked, full of youngsters explaining why JLCT is important? I cannot believe the makers didn't have any knowledge about this development. If I was in their shoes I would feel really bad for crushing their hopes. Dunno, maybe they should have changed their mind and make those people happy, because they seemed desperately needing it.

Why do they need hope for that in the first place? Being gay means you are romantically attracted to the people of your own sex. Just that. And nothing more. It doesn't make them special and it doesn't make them privileged to attack creators or actors and just about anyone because they do not agree with their idea. I'd argue they seek validation of sorts because they are not entirely at peace with their own orientation. Fine, but that doesn't mean these characters written in the 19th century need to be turned into gays just because it would send some kind of message. Riiiiiiight. The only message it would send is how disrespectful that is towards the work of Doyle. Even crazier is the idea of that sort of shipping translating to the actors and I can not even imagine how uncomfortable that must be to these two men. 

I perfectly understand if none of the actors don't want to go near this series anymore. The whole thing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth. Because these rabid shippers turned the whole thing around their delusional idea of what this show is about. Not that it was about mystery and crime solving for the majority of episodes.Sigh.

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It seems that young gay people hunger for representation. And they hoped for it in a world wide hit show. For some reason seeing yourself (or thinking you see yourself) in a piece of art seems to have a special attraction. I also fell for the show because I saw characters who reacted and felt things the way I do And I was mighty disappointed because Sherlock turned out to be "the emotional one" and Mycroft almost got a date with Lady Smallwood. The difference is that I was aware the mistake is on my side, because I had false expectations.

The whole drama is actually a very interesting example of an online mass hysteria, and sadly it seems to be the sign of our times.

What really surprised me, is that some of the TJLCers are of my age. This is something I don't understand at all.

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Because it's not just young people that hunger for representation? (And more importantly, maybe, validation?)

The show's interesting because I also see myself in the characters, but I'll bet it's not in the way you see yourself in them, JP, or anyone else does. How they managed to pull that off is beyond me. As Gatiss said (and I paraphrase) … the magic struck. And only for some people. If you don't feel the magic from the start, I doubt there's much chance you ever will. I find it all rather fascinating …. :smile: 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

The show's interesting because I also see myself in the characters, but I'll bet it's not in the way you see yourself in them, JP, or anyone else does. How they managed to pull that off is beyond me. As Gatiss said (and I paraphrase) … the magic struck. And only for some people. If you don't feel the magic from the start, I doubt there's much chance you ever will.

Yup.  The original Star Trek hit me the same way, and nothing in between has.  I suspect Gatiss is right, it's magic -- namely the magical combination of all the right people at the right time in the right place.  (I'm tempted to add that both shows went downhill in their third season, but it's not really that simple, so I won't.)

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13 hours ago, J.P. said:

It seems that young gay people hunger for representation. And they hoped for it in a world wide hit show. For some reason seeing yourself (or thinking you see yourself) in a piece of art seems to have a special attraction. I also fell for the show because I saw characters who reacted and felt things the way I do And I was mighty disappointed because Sherlock turned out to be "the emotional one" and Mycroft almost got a date with Lady Smallwood. The difference is that I was aware the mistake is on my side, because I had false expectations.

The whole drama is actually a very interesting example of an online mass hysteria, and sadly it seems to be the sign of our times.

What really surprised me, is that some of the TJLCers are of my age. This is something I don't understand at all.

The difference here is, you liked the characters that really were this and that, at least in the beginning. It was the fault of the creators to change their tune after a while. But, Sherlock and John were never gay in the first place. They  were never written as gay and were never meant to be gay in this version either. Just because gay people feel like they are entitled to representation in just about any form of media it doesn't justify their obnoxious ways. It's like me going on about how there is no character from South-Eastern Europe to represent "me". I could also go on about how many times I've seen us being described as low class barbarians at best and evil nazis at worst. But I'm not. That's because I know movies and TV shows are here to tell us a story. Not to be some kind of weapon for all sorts of social justice warriors. 

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Unlike other popular "ships" though, the idea that Sherlock and John could be a couple was brought up explicitly in the show itself, and during the very first episode. It's in the text. Granted, it's a misunderstanding on Mrs Hudson's part and it's played for laughs. But it's there. The viewer is invited to at least consider the possibility. And the idea is carried into the second season, and when Irene tells John that he and Sherlock are a couple, it's not even in a particularly humorous context any more. 

I am sure the writers didn't, probably couldn't, anticipate what they would set in motion there, but I do argue that they started it. It's not like rabid fanfic authors appeared out of nowhere waving a rainbow flag. 

I actually really like how the show handled the subject, at least until they became self-conscious about it in the later episodes, but with all the pressure they were under, I find that understandable. 

Sometimes I feel like I am the last person left who still thinks that the series is actually pretty brilliant. Sigh... 

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The idea of John and Sherlock as a couple was also explicitly a joke but of course, that doesn't matter to fanatical shippers. The idea of Irene and Sherlock was also brought up  in an actual SERIOUS manner. Do you see people who "ship" these two attacking everbody they possibly can because we didn't see Irene and Sherlock snogging at the end? You don't, do you? 

Saying how we should try to understand them because it so hurts when your expectations aren't met is hilarious. This is a tv show for crying out loud. Your expectations in life won't be met in a number of ways that are actually important. 

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14 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Because it's not just young people that hunger for representation? (And more importantly, maybe, validation?)

I didn't mean the feelings, but the out-of-control reactions.

14 hours ago, Arcadia said:

The show's interesting because I also see myself in the characters, but I'll bet it's not in the way you see yourself in them, JP, or anyone else does. How they managed to pull that off is beyond me.

Ironically, it can be because the "blurry" way of storytelling. It gives enough space for the viewer to put his own interpretations in between the lines.

2 hours ago, bronzeblues said:

Saying how we should try to understand them because it so hurts when your expectations aren't met is hilarious.

I don't say everybody should. But I do understand it, because - believe it or not - I also was in a similar place in my early twenties. I know how far you can fall into the rabbit hole, if you only have enough feedback/validation from the outside. For me one person was enough. It's a bit like falling in love - your emotions take over and the only thing your reason can do, is watch it from the corner and worry.
I cannot guarantee that I hadn't done something super-cringeworthy, if I had the means I have today.
 

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Me neither! In fact, I know that I have done a lot of super cringeworthy things and I am grateful that I didn't have access to the internet for half my life at least. 

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