Sherlock ships

[Carol the Dabbler]

7 hours ago, J.P. said:

I bet with his way of interacting with people he doesn't get much invitations to chat.

Good point.  I would say poor fellow must be lonely, but (as Sherlock said), how would he know?

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've moved @linear_panda's fan art (and discussion of it) to its own thread, "linear_panda's sherlock art" (and by the way, LP, if you'd like to change the thread's title, you can do so by Editing your initial post).

I'm continually amazed by people who can turn out such creative drawings!

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

--It's not a pleasant thought, John, but I have this terrible feeling from time to time that we might all just be human--

@Sherlock123, I love the quote, where is it from?

And it's intriguing about why Sherlock said so, what does he think he actually is?

[Artemis]

On 6/18/2020 at 2:55 AM, Van Buren Supernova said:

--It's not a pleasant thought, John, but I have this terrible feeling from time to time that we might all just be human--

@Sherlock123, I love the quote, where is it from?

And it's intriguing about why Sherlock said so, what does he think he actually is?

It's from S4 of "Sherlock" (“The Lying Detective”).

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Ah... Season 4

[Valkyrie123]

I also love the sherlock quote on your signature

[Valkyrie123]

I believe it sums up Sherlock as a whole, and moreover, its very profound and has a deeper meaning than expected.

[Valkyrie123]

Oh, look, I just gained a higher rank!

[Van Buren Supernova]

On 6/20/2020 at 6:27 PM, SherLOCKED123 said:

Oh, look, I just gained a higher rank!

Congrats! Keep going and you'd be able to have 'Potatoes on The Laptop' rank in no time!

[Arcadia]

On 6/18/2020 at 3:55 AM, Van Buren Supernova said:

 

--It's not a pleasant thought, John, but I have this terrible feeling from time to time that we might all just be human--

@Sherlock123, I love the quote, where is it from?

And it's intriguing about why Sherlock said so, what does he think he actually is?

For shame, how could you not have memorized this entire episode by now!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

[besleybean]

It's from The Dying Detective  and Sherlock means cos of his Asperger's, he's not considered 'normal'.

[Van Buren Supernova]

On 9/8/2020 at 12:11 PM, Arcadia said:

For shame, how could you not have memorized this entire episode by now!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

I have to admit I'm getting very very rusty, kinda miss them all, probably need to rewatch.

[T.o.b.y]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:55 AM, Van Buren Supernova said:

 

--It's not a pleasant thought, John, but I have this terrible feeling from time to time that we might all just be human--

@Sherlock123, I love the quote, where is it from?

And it's intriguing about why Sherlock said so, what does he think he actually is?

A God...? 

Seriously, I think what he means is that he was raised to believe that he, as a Holmes, was inherently special and above us "ordinary mortals". Considering the frankly superhuman abilities of his siblings, that's understandable to a degree. But it led to him isolating himself and trying to adhere to unattainable standards that didn't allow for typical "human" mistakes and weaknesses. 

And because he liked John so much, he put him on a pedestal as well, not for his mental abilities obviously but for his character. Because a Holmes can't have "ordinary" friends of course. If he lets someone in like that, the person has to be part of the special club as well. And then John got trapped by expectations too (not just Sherlock's, also his own and Mary's), and when he did stuff that wasn't so great and good and upright or felt resentful, selfish, whatever, he fell into an existential crisis. 

I think what Sherlock is saying with that "even you" statement is, John, I have come to realize that it's actually ok to mess up like a normal human being once in a while and you know what, I still like you, just for yourself. And it's ok to not be ok and I'm not ok either. 

Something like that. 

I love that scene at the end of The Lying Detective. 

[Van Buren Supernova]

14 minutes ago, T.o.b.y said:

A God...? 

Hold on, I remember very well there is a scene when someone said OH MY GOD, and he looks at her and says "Not quite".  I think it's to Mary in TEH.

17 minutes ago, T.o.b.y said:

And because he liked John so much, he put him on a pedestal as well, not for his mental abilities obviously but for his character. Because a Holmes can't have "ordinary" friends of course. If he lets someone in like that, the person has to be part of the special club as well. And then John got trapped by expectations too (not just Sherlock's, also his own and Mary's), and when he did stuff that wasn't so great and good and upright or felt resentful, selfish, whatever, he fell into an existential crisis. 

I think what Sherlock is saying with that "even you" statement is, John, I have come to realize that it's actually ok to mess up like a normal human being once in a while and you know what, I still like you, just for yourself. And it's ok to not be ok and I'm not ok either. 

I think it sums up well for TLD, I have to force a rewatch soon, it's just too, I don't know, I don't like how T6T and TLD make me feel, and I still hate John in TLD. (I had probably expressed a very clear view in the past about how I hate what John did to Sherlock).  So tbh, I'm a bit disappointed, I though it was earlier.

I was interested because I thought the quote was from season 2, around HOB, especially Sherlock's emphasize on "even you", I thought he looks up to John as a model of good person, that eventhough he disagrees with some of John's view and expectation, he must be thinking that John is the kindest person he knows, therefore the even you is very interesting.

[T.o.b.y]

1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Hold on, I remember very well there is a scene when someone said OH MY GOD, and he looks at her and says "Not quite".  I think it's to Mary in TEH.

I think it sums up well for TLD, I have to force a rewatch soon, it's just too, I don't know, I don't like how T6T and TLD make me feel, and I still hate John in TLD. (I had probably expressed a very clear view in the past about how I hate what John did to Sherlock).  So tbh, I'm a bit disappointed, I though it was earlier.

I was interested because I thought the quote was from season 2, around HOB, especially Sherlock's emphasize on "even you", I thought he looks up to John as a model of good person, that eventhough he disagrees with some of John's view and expectation, he must be thinking that John is the kindest person he knows, therefore the even you is very interesting.

Yes, I think he does / did look up to John that way. Which made it even harder for John when he found himself thinking, feeling and behaving differently. 

Imho, series 4 has many faults but what I love it for is the message that a person's worth and worthiness of love (in whatever form) doesn't / shouldn't all come from their abilities or achievements. Sherlock isn't only lovable because he's brilliant and John isn't only lovable because he's honorable. They have intrinsic value just as people and they learn to like each other just as people even if they're sometimes stupid or mean, as people are wont to be sometimes. 

I'm not saying there aren't limits and we should IRL forgive anything and everything all the time and stay friends with people who hurt us. If for you what John did crosses a line, even in fiction, that's really fine and understandable. 

For me, Sherlock's suicide charade, the two year absence and completely inappropriate behavior upon returning was already so appalling that I believe if they were real people, John shouldn't ever have let him into his life again. However, I can tolerate a lot more unhealthy shit on TV than IRL (and really like it there too to be quite honest), so in this case, I think it makes sense that John would have an extreme reaction sooner or later. And I'm not surprised it took the form of violence. Or that he was about to cut ties completely, even if it meant leaving Sherlock to die. 

It's unrealistic that their friendship can mend from all this incredible mess but what else is fiction for if not to make the impossible possible? 

I got the impression that Sherlock kind of knew that John needed to get a lot of anger and resentment out of his system and he kind of volunteered to be the punching bag. Maybe that was even his way of dealing with his own guilt. It's not exactly a strategy that I would recommend to actual living people but in this case - yeah, ok. Pass me the popcorn and the tissues. 

(Just for perspective, I am a person who enjoys the relationship between Harley Quinn and the Joker too so... I'm clearly a bit messed up. But I swear I have wayyyy different standards for people IRL and I do think I can see real abuse and don't romanticise it. I had the good luck to grow up in a pretty happy home, have pretty decent friends and marry a very decent man, so I guess I can afford to enjoy F***ed up fiction. I'm aware that not everyone can or wants to and that's very understandable and ok!) 

[besleybean]

For me John's treatment of Sherlock was unacceptable, but I think he knew this himself.

Anyhow, they made up and moved on.

[Van Buren Supernova]

59 minutes ago, T.o.b.y said:

I'm not saying there aren't limits and we should IRL forgive anything and everything all the time and stay friends with people who hurt us. If for you what John did crosses a line, even in fiction, that's really fine and understandable. 

I have no problem watching similar scene happens in other series, or something worse than that. It surprised me too why I was really upset with John. I guess they are doing a good job in making me invested emotionally with the characters and their relationship, which I believe hardly happens. In a way, I suppose I feel that it was done to someone that I know, making it unbearable.

My mom once told me a story of my dad missing for two days, and went home with his white shirt bloodied, it was the time when the law was unclear and people were picked up from the street and suspected from being against the government. I wasn't even born yet, and this story was told just like that, without more explanation when I was barely a teenager, and I don't want to know as everyone tries to forget that, but the image burnt in my head and I can't stand the thought of him being beaten bloody. In fact, I could stomach violent scenes (on screen, I'm a wussies in real life unless I have to defend something), scenes like stabbing, shooting etc, but someone being beaten when they are helpless, almost always get me. And that is by stranger. So in a way, Sherlock and John are both like someone I know, and I can't fathom one doing that to another, for reason that I fail to grasp, because almost all the time, I react like Sherlock and on his side and I don't get why John mold his ideal Sherlock and gets mad when he is not. I know it's not that simple, but it sums up a lot, from my POV.

But I get that view from the other side, not surprised that not many shares mine, and frankly I still don't feel like doing a rewatch because of that, maybe I will change my minds and feel easier, maybe, but it could be worse too. I guess I'm quite a vengeful person.

 

1 hour ago, T.o.b.y said:

 

(Just for perspective, I am a person who enjoys the relationship between Harley Quinn and the Joker too so... I'm clearly a bit messed up. But I swear I have wayyyy different standards for people IRL and I do think I can see real abuse and don't romanticise it. I had the good luck to grow up in a pretty happy home, have pretty decent friends and marry a very decent man, so I guess I can afford to enjoy F***ed up fiction. I'm aware that not everyone can or wants to and that's very understandable and ok!) 

On the contrary, I thought quite opposite. May I ask is it selective? Because I remember we talked about other shows in the past and I got the impression that you dislike some f***ed up fiction, mostly shows that I enjoy :lol:. But I get that you might be looking with different angle of what you like or don't like.

[Artemis]

3 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

In a way, I suppose I feel that it was done to someone that I know, making it unbearable.

[...] In fact, I could stomach violent scenes [...] like stabbing, shooting etc, but someone being beaten when they are helpless, almost always get me. And that is by stranger. So in a way, Sherlock and John are both like someone I know, and I can't fathom one doing that to another, for reason that I fail to grasp, because almost all the time, I react like Sherlock [...]

^ Same!  Thanks for articulating that, because I think this is why it was so distressing to me too, but I was never quite able to express that.

 

[T.o.b.y]

11 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

I May I ask is it selective? Because I remember we talked about other shows in the past and I got the impression that you dislike some f***ed up fiction, mostly shows that I enjoy :lol:. But I get that you might be looking with different angle of what you like or don't like.

That's true. It's hard to explain.

Usually, I have a very low tolerance for violence, on and off screen alike. Shows like Game of Thrones are way outside my comfort zone for example. I even have to look away during some superhero movie fights.

What I couldn't stand on Sherlock was the beginning of The Empty Hearse. Ugh, I always skip that torture scene when I'm rewatching. And I cannot forgive Mycroft for his smug enjoyment of it either. That. to me, was way worse than John lashing out, because John just lost it while Mycroft was totally in control of both the situation and his own emotions (or rather lack thereof).

What I do enjoy however, in fiction and fiction only, are complicated, messed up and often unhealthy relationships. Harely and Joker, like I said, for example. Or Jamie and Cercei Lannister, to list another extreme. Irene Adler and Sherlock.

But not just in a romantic sense. It also applies to fictional friendships and families. Half my movie collection is "dysfunctional family drama" or "disturbed teenagers doing disturbing shit". Don't ask me why. It just seems to be the way my brain is wired.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe someone already said this and I misunderstood, but my interpretation of this scene:

SHERLOCK: It’s not a pleasant thought, John, but I have this terrible feeling, from time to time, that we might all just be human.
JOHN: Even you?
SHERLOCK: No. Even you.

... is that Sherlock has seen how John has been beating himself up because he had thought about cheating on Mary.  So he's pointing out that even though John is basically a good man, nobody's perfect, and that's OK.

 

[Artemis]

^ That was my interpretation as well.

 

[besleybean]

Yep, sorry...

I always took that to be given.

How on Earth could it be taken any other way?

But wait(remembers Johnlockers)oh god...

Sorry, delete my post or admonish as necessary!

😈

Moderator Comment:

I shall indeed take the liberty of commenting here to remind everyone that Johnlock is a perfectly valid interpretation of the series. Now TJLC was disproven indeed, but the exact nature of Sherlock's and John's undeniable bond is, and always will be, in the eye of the viewer. So please do refrain from judging others' interpretations too harshly, and that goes for just about *any* aspect of the show. Thank you and carry on!

Edited September 27, 2020 by Caya
this was me, since that doesn't show up in the ModHat box

[T.o.b.y]

17 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Maybe someone already said this and I misunderstood, but my interpretation of this scene:

SHERLOCK: It’s not a pleasant thought, John, but I have this terrible feeling, from time to time, that we might all just be human.
JOHN: Even you?
SHERLOCK: No. Even you.

... is that Sherlock has seen how John has been beating himself up because he had thought about cheating on Mary.  So he's pointing out that even though John is basically a good man, nobody's perfect, and that's OK.

 

 That's the simple and sane way of explaining it... The Carol way! 

[J.P.]

11 hours ago, besleybean said:

I always took that to be given.

How on Earth could it be taken any other way?

This.
What were the alternative interpretations?

I will repeat myself, but S4 is imo about expectations one has towards oneself and, actually, wanting to be someone else. Mary wants to be a normal wife and mother, John wants to be the ideal husband, he thinks Mary thinks he is - and the moral compass for Sherlock. Sherlock wants to be Mycroft. Mycroft wants to be an iceberg. All of them fail miserably. Probably even Mrs Hudson, who wants to be "just a landlady".

In that scene Sherlock tells John how unrealistic his expectations towards himself were. And he says "we" because he recognized his own limitations too. And above all it's a good, surprising pun. And Mofftisses would kill for a good pun.

[Carol the Dabbler]

10 hours ago, J.P. said:

What were the alternative interpretations?

It sounded to me like there were a bunch of other interpretations being proposed, which is why I posted mine (which I agree seems quite clear from context).  But maybe what I took to be other interpretations of that bit of dialog were actually interpretations of one aspect of the entire episode (or one aspect of the entire series).  Sorry.  Didn't mean to confuse anyone.  Goodness knows I'm often sufficiently confused for all of us!