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I think it was JP who mentioned she was rewatching Sherlock, so I thought I would too. Then it occurred to me maybe some people might like to discuss their reactions to the show after not seeing it for awhile. So here's a thread for that!

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Soooo …. my very first reaction after watching A Study in Pink again was … I'm not so sure I would have become as obsessed with Sherlock as I did if I had seen Season 1 first. (I saw Season Two first, then in about the span of a year saw S1-3.) It's fun, funny and cute, but it also seriously lags in places. Watching it this time reminded me … I nearly always fall asleep during the tete a tete between Sherlock and the cabbie. (Thank goodness for DVDs or I might never have seen it. :-) )

I have the same reaction to most of the Soo Lin scenes in The Blind Banker, although I enjoyed that episode otherwise. I've always like how involved John was in that episode, even getting the jump on Sherlock a few times. I still have to agree the logic of the plot begins to crumble as it goes.

The ending of The Great Game was a stroke of genius, almost guaranteeing a return audience (assuming you made it to the 3rd episode).

More later.....

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Wha... why you get a head start? But I won't be able to do rewatch for the time being. 

Just that I remember I didn't feel bored at all when I rewatched SIP almost every week when I used to travel often, that's the best choice they have on the plane. But yah, of course, John and Sherlock's interactions are the best part. TBB, tell me you don't miss the way he straightened his suit after beating up the bad guy in sword. I think you guys know that I loathe General Shan, but somehow she does seem fitting for good old classic original Sherlock? No? Have I gone soft on her? 

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I never understood the antagonism to her in the first place...

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Towards General Shan? My antagonism stems from the fact that she kidnapped and threatened John and Sarah, and was probably the one who ordered Soo Lin's death … :D 

I suspect you mean the folks who thought she was too much of a stereotype. I think that's a legitimate charge, but it sort of fits with what the show was at the time … Victorian-style Sherlock transported to the 21st century.

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10 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

 TBB, tell me you don't miss the way he straightened his suit after beating up the bad guy in sword.

I just finished watching T6T, and I much prefer the campy sword fight in TBB to the James Bond-y pool fight in T6T. It's more fun, and I like the fun side of the show more than anything else about it. Not that there isn't a place for serious, I just enjoy the fun more.

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On 1/29/2020 at 7:36 PM, Arcadia said:

I'm not so sure I would have become as obsessed with Sherlock as I did if I had seen Season 1 first. (I saw Season Two first, then in about the span of a year saw S1-3.) It's fun, funny and cute, but it also seriously lags in places.

I saw Series 1 first (knowing nothing about it beforehand except "Sherlock Holmes in the 21st century"), and I think you're overlooking one thing:  Whichever series a person sees first is going to be a revelation, and will therefore hold their interest.  I was utterly fascinated by SiP, and was completely hooked by the time Sherlock said "We'll start with the riding crop."  Judging each series as a whole, S1 remains my favorite, which may be at least in part because it was my first.

As for General Shan, I'm pretty sure I've heard some Chinese people who really do speak English like that, so that part doesn't bother me.  But the character as a whole is sort of a Ming the Merciless clone, so I can see why some people would be put off by her.  I'm probably bothered more by the plot holes, but I never noticed them till I read a fan parody ("The Partially-Sighted Postman") and realized how dead-on it was.  However, after further reflection, I've realized that if I assume that certain things happened off-screen, the holes are explained and no longer bother me (at least not very much).

On 1/30/2020 at 8:55 AM, Arcadia said:

I much prefer the campy sword fight in TBB to the James Bond-y pool fight in T6T. It's more fun, and I like the fun side of the show more than anything else about it. Not that there isn't a place for serious, I just enjoy the fun more

I think that was a large part of what hooked me, the judicious mix of humor and drama.

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8 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I saw Series 1 first (knowing nothing about it beforehand except "Sherlock Holmes in the 21st century"), and I think you're overlooking one thing:  Whichever series a person sees first is going to be a revelation, and will therefore hold their interest.  I was utterly fascinated by SiP, and was completely hooked by the time Sherlock said "We'll start with the riding crop."  Judging each series as a whole, S1 remains my favorite, which may be at least in part because it was my first.

I think there's probably something to that, but in my case, Series 3 is my favorite. (And by "favorite", I mean the one that vaulted me from "fan" to "obsessed maniac".) My favorite season of the original Star Trek is the second one, my favorite season of Buffy is the, uh (counts on fingers) sixth one, my favorite season of Babylon 5 is the fourth one, and I saw the first season first of all of those. But my favorite season of Lost was the first one (and I really do regret the time lost watching the subsequent seasons, thinking there would be a decent payoff.... :wtf:  )  Oh, and my favorite season of Reboot was the third one. :D  I think I was born to defy common wisdom...….

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8 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I'm probably bothered more by the plot holes, but I never noticed them till I read a fan parody ("The Partially-Sighted Postman") and realized how dead-on it was.  However, after further reflection, I've realized that if I assume that certain things happened off-screen, the holes are explained and no longer bother me (at least not very much).

The only one that really bothers me is … if the Black Lotus was trying to discover the whereabouts of the jade pin, why were they killing the only people that would know? When they zapped the first guy, didn't they pretty much destroy their only lead? Seems to me it would have been more productive to threaten him with the arrow thingy. 

Anyway, on to Season 2 … I still think ASIB is their single best episode. (And I still wish Sherlock would find someone more worthy of his affection than a dominatrix, for pete's sake.) Everything about it is so indirect, I'm never sure what's really going on, but somehow it works. For me. Maybe that's the "the first is your favorite" phenomenon at work, although I prefer to think it's because it's just so well made. :D

I became rather put off by TRF once I learned that Sherlock was supposedly faking his emotions all the way through it, but I'd sort of forgotten about that this time, and it's a rollicking good ride. Knowing what's to come, though, it's even more shocking how casually cruel it was to John. Even if you believe (as I do) that Sherlock didn't understand the depth of affection John had for him, it was still an awful trick to pull. How John could bring himself to trust the man again is beyond understanding ... and I rather choose to believe he never really did trust him again. Forgive, yes; trust, no. Not until The Lying Detective.

 

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Both Sherlock and John have many issues to work through, their grief not being the least of them.

It initially destroys their relationship, but ultimately strengthens it.

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

The only one that really bothers me is … if the Black Lotus was trying to discover the whereabouts of the jade pin, why were they killing the only people that would know? When they zapped the first guy, didn't they pretty much destroy their only lead? Seems to me it would have been more productive to threaten him with the arrow thingy. 

Anyway, on to Season 2 … I still think ASIB is their single best episode. (And I still wish Sherlock would find someone more worthy of his affection than a dominatrix, for pete's sake.) Everything about it is so indirect, I'm never sure what's really going on, but somehow it works. For me. Maybe that's the "the first is your favorite" phenomenon at work, although I prefer to think it's because it's just so well made. :D

I became rather put off by TRF once I learned that Sherlock was supposedly faking his emotions all the way through it, but I'd sort of forgotten about that this time, and it's a rollicking good ride. Knowing what's to come, though, it's even more shocking how casually cruel it was to John. Even if you believe (as I do) that Sherlock didn't understand the depth of affection John had for him, it was still an awful trick to pull. How John could bring himself to trust the man again is beyond understanding ... and I rather choose to believe he never really did trust him again. Forgive, yes; trust, no. Not until The Lying Detective.

 

I agree. It took two more seasons to repair that damage and it's only just barely believable that it could be repaired at all. 

I think that's why I love The Lying Detective so much, because it finally gave The Reichenbach Fall the resolution it needed. 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

if the Black Lotus was trying to discover the whereabouts of the jade pin, why were they killing the only people that would know? When they zapped the first guy, didn't they pretty much destroy their only lead? Seems to me it would have been more productive to threaten him with the arrow thingy. 

That was my thought too.  But then someone pointed out that (despite what Moftiss claims) the episode seems to be largely based on Sign of the Four -- and in that story, the agile intruder (he of the small feet) entered through the skylight and killed the suspect before his boss could get upstairs and stop him.  So it's entirely possible that Shan was less than pleased in this episode as well -- but of course we weren't privy to her thoughts, so it looks like a plot hole.

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I became rather put off by TRF once I learned that Sherlock was supposedly faking his emotions all the way through it

Hmm, I seriously doubt that he was faking all of his emotions.  Sherlock likes to project an image of "in control," but if he was faking it, then why bother with the rooftop tears?  There's no way John could have seen them from four stories down.

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

it's even more shocking how casually cruel it was to John.

Making him think he was dead, you mean -- and allowing him to continue believing that for a couple of years?  As Sherlock said, it was because the baddies had to believe he was dead, and John is a lousy liar.  Plus -- as Sherlock failed to mention -- if the baddies had suspected he was alive, they would presumably have carried through with Moriarty's threat to kill John (and Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade).  So he was breaking John's heart in order to protect his life.  I doubt that he was quite as clueless as he appeared to be, though he probably didn't fully realize how much his friendship meant to John.

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7 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Lost was the first one (and I really do regret the time lost watching the subsequent seasons, thinking there would be a decent payoff.... :wtf:

Amen!

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23 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

I think that's why I love The Lying Detective so much, because it finally gave The Reichenbach Fall the resolution it needed.

I hadn't thought of it quite that way … that it resolved the Fall … but dang, you're right. That was the moment I was waiting for in S3 and never got. It was worth the wait, I love TLD too.

23 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

That was my thought too.  But then someone pointed out that (despite what Moftiss claims) the episode seems to be largely based on Sign of the Four -- and in that story, the agile intruder (he of the small feet) entered through the skylight and killed the suspect before his boss could get upstairs and stop him.  So it's entirely possible that Shan was less than pleased in this episode as well -- but of course we weren't privy to her thoughts, so it looks like a plot hole.

Interesting. I thought of that, then rejected it as an idea because of the 2nd murder. But I guess the killer could have been out of touch with the boss (and clearly he had no conscience, if he was willing to kill his own sister for no reason I could divine.) Okay, then … head canon accepted! :) 

23 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Making him think he was dead, you mean -- and allowing him to continue believing that for a couple of years?

That, but mostly, making him watch it. Putting him through that phone call, tears and all. It could have been done differently, but the Holmes boys chose that. For maximum emotional impact, obviously, but it's still incredibly cruel. It's hard for me to accept any rationale that would forgive such cruelty.

That's not a criticism of the script, just an observation of how it made me feel as I was watching it. Plus, John being told he couldn't know the truth because he was such a poor liar … that's the same as saying he can't be trusted. True or not, that must have hurt a lot too. And then Mary lying to him on top of it … it's a wonder he ever spoke to either one of them again. It does explain his anger, though.

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

the Holmes boys chose that. For maximum emotional impact, obviously,

Don't you mean "the Moftiss boys chose that"?  :D   For maximum emotional impact, yes, obviously.  It's not canon, because in the original, Holmes "died" while Watson was away on a wild-goose chase, whereas Sherlock waited till John had returned from his analogous errand.  Judging by the interviews, Moftiss took it as a challenge to go ACD one better, having "Sherlock die in John's arms" and yet not actually be dead.  Not sure they ever did give much consideration to John's feelings.  No, that's not correct, they do of course, because he's their emotional whipping boy.  That's one reason I have so much trouble with Last Vow -- that, plus so many fans blaming John for being so short-tempered in that one.

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

John being told he couldn't know the truth because he was such a poor liar … that's the same as saying he can't be trusted.

Not exactly, no.  It's saying that he can't be trusted in one specific way.  Or to look at it from another angle, he's *too* trustworthy in this particular way, because he can't lie (at least not convincingly).  But in every other sense, Sherlock trusts John, even with his own life.

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

that must have hurt a lot

No denying that!

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10 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Don't you mean "the Moftiss boys chose that"?  :D  

Well, yes, but I was trying to stay "in story." Which is how I was watching it, as best I could.

10 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Not exactly, no.  It's saying that he can't be trusted in one specific way.  Or to look at it from another angle, he's *too* trustworthy in this particular way, because he can't lie (at least not convincingly).  But in every other sense, Sherlock trusts John, even with his own life

Again, yes, but … it's still like telling John he's not quite good enough to play with the big boys. He should probably take it as a compliment, but it's clear from his reaction in TEH that he doesn't. 

Since we seem to have moved on to S3 … I don't really have much to add to what we've been saying, except that I think TSO3 is becoming my favorite of that season. Sherlock's just so wonderful in it. I do miss John's involvement in his cases, though … in the first two seasons, he was an (almost) equal partner in the investigations. In S3, as we've all said many times, he's almost gone missing. It's weird.

Let's see … oh, I remember what I wanted to say … the explanation for "how he did it" actually made sense to me, even if it's a bit a lot preposterous. But the bit about the assassin that was targeting John still causes questions. They say Mycroft's men warned him off … but why did they need to? Once the assassin saw Sherlock jump, why wouldn't he stand down like the other two did? (And how did the other two know Sherlock had jumped? Intuition?)

I still think HLV is a cinematic wonder. That's the moment I became obsessed with the show.

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An excellent episode and for me it just got better thereafter.

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13 hours ago, Arcadia said:

But the bit about the assassin that was targeting John still causes questions. They say Mycroft's men warned him off … but why did they need to? Once the assassin saw Sherlock jump, why wouldn't he stand down like the other two did? (And how did the other two know Sherlock had jumped? Intuition?)

The assassin also saw that Sherlock (obviously) didn't hit the pavement. He saw the Big Blue. Or whatever trick was used. Obviously he sat in a window high above the street level. The others might have been informed by him, or by someone else observing everything and coordinating the action.

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Then why didn't he shoot John? And if he saw what really happened, why didn't he tell the others to shoot Mrs. H and Lestrade?

If they hadn't mentioned him at all, I would never have given it another thought. But since they did, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Oh well. In all other respects, TEH is a thoroughly enjoyable episode. And I really don't go around brooding about the explanation of the Fall. :D 

*****

I just came home and plopped down in front of the TV, and the only thing on was Trump's impeachment trial. I was about to turn it off, but Schiff, the representative who was "prosecuting" Trump, turned out to be such a compelling speaker that I ended up watching it to the bitter end. Something he said reminded me of HLV; the whole thing about whether it's okay to do something evil if it's for a good cause.

That was always my problem with HLV; I don't think it's okay to commit murder, as Sherlock did, even if it's to rid the world of scum. But I know many fans had no trouble with it; good guy rids world of bad guy, yay! And that's the Republican defense of Trump; okay, he did a bad thing, but it was for the good of the country (since Trump is, according to them, the only thing standing between the USA and the complete subjugation of the white race.) Therefore, he won't be punished, any more than Sherlock was for murdering CAM.

Sorry, but I still don't buy it. Some things should not be condoned. And after a couple years of not watching it, I still hate, hate, hate, the opening scene of T6T, where Sherlock treats the whole thing like a joke. I don't like it in Trump, and I don't like it here. Arrrgh.

After that, though, the first episode gets pretty good for awhile. (Filmatic issues aside; really, was that the best makeup they could do for Ben? Yeesh.) I quite enjoy Mary's trek across the globe, only to find Sherlock playing games in her sitting room. Her death scene was WAYYYY too cliché and overwrought, but hey. If they were so determined to kill her off, at least she went out saving someone else. Plus, that sets us up for …. (drum roll) … The Lying Detective. Have I mentioned before how brilliant I think this episode is? Oh TLD, how I love thee, let me count the ways...….

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7 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Then why didn't he shoot John? And if he saw what really happened, why didn't he tell the others to shoot Mrs. H and Lestrade?

He didn't shoot John because Mycroft's men "persuaded" him not to (and I'm trying not to wonder what was meant by that).  And apparently he was sufficiently "persuaded" that he did not report what he saw, so the rest of the organization took the news reports of Sherlock's death at face value.

7 hours ago, Arcadia said:

If they hadn't mentioned him at all, I would never have given it another thought. But since they did, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Agreed.  In Reichenbach, once Sherlock's "body" is carted off, the assassin takes one last look (through his scope) at John, then packs up his rifle and leaves.  This implies that he somehow missed seeing Sherlock land on Big Blue -- in which case there would have been no need to "persuade" him.  So why didn't they just hold that thought and not mention him again?

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7 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

He didn't shoot John because Mycroft's men "persuaded" him not to (and I'm trying not to wonder what was meant by that).  And apparently he was sufficiently "persuaded" that he did not report what he saw, so the rest of the organization took the news reports of Sherlock's death at face value.

Unless "persuaded" means "killed," or "incarcerated", I don't see how that would have really solved the problem. Truly, I think they just forgot they'd already solved the problem by intimating that the shooter believed Sherlock was truly dead.

Question: If the assassins walked free (as assassins seem to do in Sherlock World), wouldn't they have come after John & Co. again once Sherlock turned out to be alive? Or do assassins have some code that their contract is only good for one day? :D 

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5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

... wouldn't they have come after John & Co. again once Sherlock turned out to be alive? Or do assassins have some code that their contract is only good for one day? :D 

Well, these are television assassins, so we can probably assume that they'd act more or less like other fictitious professional killers.  There seem to be two kinds:  1. I did what you specifically hired me to do, so I'm done; and 2. I'm not done till I feel I've truly fulfilled my mission.  Apparently these are type #1.  Fortunately.  OR -- Sherlock had somehow managed to wipe out Moriarty's gang (as the original Holmes did), despite having gone on a world cruise.

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Not only are they TV assassins, they're Sherlock-World assassins, who only shoot those who deserve it and are all cuddly and honorable and stuff when they're not actually on a job. :rolleyes: 

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