Irene or Molly

[besleybean]

I'm sure it could...

but Sherlock doesn't really do relationships.

[Carol the Dabbler]

3 hours ago, besleybean said:

Sherlock doesn't really do relationships.

... which may be just as well for Molly -- or whoever.

 

[besleybean]

Well I'd have him!

[Arcadia]

15 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Sorry, Arcadia, I was indeed thinking of The Association.

OK, so you're like Alex -- he mentions some song that he likes, and I say what's it about, and he says he has no idea, he just likes the way it sounds.  I'm like that about some songs (best example: the Japanese song that was released here with the ridiculously inappropriate title "Sukiyaki" -- I could tell it was sad, that's all), but if they're in a language I understand at all, the words are very important to my assessment.  (My advice:  Don't EVER listen to a sung -- rather than instrumental -- version of "Love Is Blue.")

My advice is to not listen to the instrumental version either.

15 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Just as well that you don't pay much attention to the lyrics (here they are, with an audio clip as well), in that case.  I kinda choke on the lines "You don't know how many times I've wished that I could mold you Into someone who could cherish me as much as I cherish you."

Hey, with voices like that, they can mold me any way they like. 

13 hours ago, BBally1981 said:

Molly seems to be a better choice but the question is, would it work out?

There you go, keep us on topic!  

[Carol the Dabbler]

13 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

My advice is to not listen to the instrumental version either.

Hey, I like "Love is Blue" (the instrumental)!   (Or at least I did back in the day -- haven't heard it recently.)  OK, here are both versions. (Paul Mauriat does the instrumental, and Marty Robbins is a singer, so I assume his is vocal -- but darned if I'm gonna listen to that one.)  Yup, I still like the instrumental.

15 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Hey, with voices like that, they can mold me any way they like.

Oh, they're OK, but I don't think they're THAT good!  If they were The Seekers, it might be different. 

1 hour ago, besleybean said:

Well I'd have him!

Aaand we're back on topic again!

 

[Arcadia]

4 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Hey, I like "Love is Blue" (the instrumental)!   (Or at least I did back in the day -- haven't heard it recently.)  OK, here are both versions. (Paul Mauriat does the instrumental, and Marty Robbins is a singer, so I assume his is vocal -- but darned if I'm gonna listen to that one.)  Yup, I still like the instrumental.

Oh, they're OK, but I don't think they're THAT good!  If they were The Seekers, it might be different. 

The SEEKERS!!!! Egad. 

6 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Aaand we're back on topic again!

Wait, aren't we supposed to be the moderators?

[Carol the Dabbler]

14 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Wait, aren't we supposed to be the moderators?

I believe that's the theory, yes.

 

[sittything]

On 9/8/2020 at 1:35 AM, besleybean said:

Yes, Steven made that abundantly clear and so we have to go with that.

I still find this so perplexing, but at the time I just rejected it.  He also joked Molly was going to go out and shag someone after the end of season 4 so, I'm not sure I trust his judgment on his own characters.  lol  In the end, we'll probably never know, and I'll probably never have to deal with my headcanon being ruined, because season 5 feels so unlikely at this point.

[besleybean]

Loo(Molly) famously had words with Steven...

she didn't agree with the way he wrote the character.

But she loves him really and says they have agreed to disagree!

[Carol the Dabbler]

38 minutes ago, sittything said:

He also joked Molly was going to go out and shag someone after the end of season 4 so, I'm not sure I trust his judgment on his own characters.

Or he feels the need to make ridiculous jokes.  I have no idea.

8 minutes ago, besleybean said:

Loo(Molly) famously had words with Steven...

she didn't agree with the way he wrote the character.

But she loves him really and says they have agreed to disagree!

Didn't they finally agree on something, at least regarding one particular scene?

 

[besleybean]

Not that I'm aware of...

I took from what Loo said that she appreciated Steven explaining his reasoning to her...

but she still disagreed with him!

[T.o.b.y]

On 9/8/2020 at 6:33 AM, Arcadia said:

I always rooted for Molly to get whatever would make her happy (i.e., Sherlock) but I also believe he wouldn't actually make her happy, unless he changed a lot. Which wouldn't hurt my feelings any if he did change, but I can't see it happening. If nothing else, the fandom would get nasty about it.  

I also get the impression that Moffat believes Irene is the "official" love interest, so there's that.....

Well, Irene is the official love interest from the original Sherlock Holmes stories so in that sense it's true. 

In BBC Sherlock I think it makes sense that Irene is the closest thing to a love interest that Sherlock will ever have because I just can't picture him settling down into a regular relationship with anyone. It just seems so out of character for me. 

I can't quite imagine him sleeping with Irene either when they meet, my head canon is they just play some insanely dangerous cat and mouse game with vaguely sexual elements and then each go their own way until the next year or so. He's clearly very attracted to her but I can't imagine Sherlock Holmes making time for a basic shag in some hotel room. That would be way too ordinary for either of them. 

As for Molly, I love Molly and I love her friendship with Sherlock but when it comes to romantic relationships, I think she deserves more than what I think he could give. 

The only person I emotially "ship" Sherlock with is John but I don't give a damn if they go to bed (personally don't believe they do or want to but still understand why other fans see this differently...). 

 

I am probably the rare person who is perfectly happy with the way things are at the end of the series! 😄

[sittything]

3 hours ago, besleybean said:

Not that I'm aware of...

I took from what Loo said that she appreciated Steven explaining his reasoning to her...

but she still disagreed with him!

I've always loved and appreciated Loo's care for the character of Molly.  She really seems quite fond of her.

[T.o.b.y]

6 minutes ago, sittything said:

I've always loved and appreciated Loo's care for the character of Molly.  She really seems quite fond of her.

Who wouldn't be? Molly is incredibly lovable. 

[Arcadia]

On 9/10/2020 at 3:57 PM, T.o.b.y said:

Well, Irene is the official love interest from the original Sherlock Holmes stories so in that sense it's true. 

Yeah, that's what I meant as well ... in spite of Moftisses declarations that they feel free to pull from any source, etc., Moffat seems to feel Irene-as-love-interest is inviolable canon. Not a bad way to look at it, imo ... but I still root for Molly.  

[Jen]

I don’t know if it’s wise to answer now... Because I only saw serie one and two. 

For the moment, I don't know how to answer... I would say both. 

 I really like Sherlock and Irene. I like the game between them, it's so brilliant, so intense. Very sensual. Scandale in Belgravia is my favorite episode... I think Sherlock and Irene together are very inspiring 😍They're alike... there's an attraction between them.. And Irene is the only one I find worthy... 

 

However... Molly is truly in love with Sherlock, she does love him... I don't know she would be happy with him, but she's really good at reading Sherlock... Molly is lovable, but she's not a weak woman. It might be good for him... 

 

 

My heart is torn between the two!! 

[Carol the Dabbler]

5 hours ago, Jen said:

I don’t know if it’s wise to answer now... Because I only saw serie one and two.

That's exactly the position that all of us were in when this forum began in 2012 -- and we already had plenty of opinions!
 

On 9/10/2020 at 1:05 PM, besleybean said:

Loo(Molly) famously had words with Steven...

she didn't agree with the way he wrote the character.

But she [....] says they have agreed to disagree!

I finally remembered what scene it was that I read she'd been able to get changed:  The Christmas party scene, as originally written, apparently had Molly just taking Sherlock's insensitive comments without voicing her objections.  But Ms. Brealey put her foot down, and the scene was changed.    And since then, she hasn't been such a doormat.

 

[besleybean]

She's still in love with him, though.

[Hikari]

Lots of good commentary here.

Notwithstanding that 'A Scandal in Belgravia' is my favorite episode . . . it's hard for me to see what Mofftiss turned Irene Adler into.

I am a devoted stan of the original Sherlock-Irene ship first launched in "A Scandal in Bohemia".  The Woman that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote is the Woman I would want for Holmes in any era.  She is daring for her time, in that she is a woman on her own in a time dominated by men.  She makes her own way as an artist of a very high caliber.  She defies convention, as Sherlock himself does--the stifling convention of the Victorian era that had very narrow parameters of behavior for a female.  Living outside the protection (ie, under the control) of a man as Irene does gets her labeled 'an adventuress'--code for a lady of lax moral behavior.  The Woman takes a chance on love with an undeserving, brutal man, and fearing for her safety, she takes measures that could be construed as blackmail.  But she's not doing it for money or for kicks, rather self-preservation.  As long as she has possession of the compromising photograph that she safeguards, no harm will come to her.  BBC's Irene is a lot more mercenary.  She sells sex.  She sells information.  She works for Moriarty and she does it for the thrill of being bad as much as for the financial rewards.  She's exciting--but she's not trustworthy, and she's not worthy of Sherlock, seeing as she is absolutely corrupted.  The darkness in her speaks to Sherlock's own dark side--she represents what he might have become, if he'd decided to not be on the side of the angels.  The original Adler is a refined and loyal, loving person who is resourceful enough to best Sherlock Holmes at his own game (twice).  She was badly used by a bad man, but she is not herself bad, just bold enough to save herself.  Also, Sherlock Holmes is the one guilty of criminal acts where she is concerned, not she--after all, he breaks into her home on more than one occasion and induces panic by having Watson throw a homemade smoke bomb into the street.  A number of felonies.  Adler is only guilty of wanting to protect her good name and her life from a powerful man who could easily have her killed.   Her brains and courage, as much as her beauty and artistic accomplishment impress SH deeply, probably more.  For him she is 'the One'--or as close as he ever comes to it. 

These two are easy to ship, and legend has it that SH and Adler meet again circa 1891 and make a child together.  Works for me!  Dr. Watson writes of The Woman as if he remains forever more than a little jealous of her--the one Woman who matched wits with SH and won, and that, for Sherlock Holmes is foreplay that endures forever.

Modern Irene is very problematic as a partner for SH.  She might stir his loins (if we can Go There)--but he'd never be able to trust her.  He saves her life, but the prospect of her reverting to her old habits would be just too strong to ignore.  

Molly would be a much better match in terms of an actual day-to-day domestic arrangement, BUT whereas she's got a grande passion for Sherlock, I think he regards her as more like a little sister/assistant/whipping post.  Essentially, Molly is Watson in female form.  He relies on her and must grudgingly respect her skills to have entrusted her with the whole Reichenbach deception.  She is loyal and he prizes that highly.  Does he have the hots for her?   . . . I have to say no, manifestly not.  What he feels for her is platonic.  As a Watson stand-in, they make a good team, professionally--and Molly is his equal in chemistry, which certainly has its uses.  But Sherl would never be able to give Molly what she craves: a normal and fulfilling love life.

For that, she needs to look at Greg.  Lestrade is totally into her, and he's available in all senses, which Sherlock never will be .. it's not the way he's wired.  The Sherlolly fan vids are really cute and seem to focus on Sherlock constantly getting Molly with child.   I just can't go there with these two .. Sherlock would find such domesticity stifling and he would take it out on her and start being a butthead again.  Molly deserves a more fully-rounded, emotionally adjusted man who is drama-free--Lestrade.  Something in Molly is drawn to exactly those qualities in Sherl that make her the most unhappy.  She's got a deep masochistic streak, does our Molly.  Sherlock is not the guy to give her peace of mind or a fulfilling family life.  She really needs to give the Inspector a ride on her merry-go-round.  I think that would cure her of needing Sherl's romantic attentions and she could focus on being his friend/Watson stand-in.  Sherlock likes working with her and isn't adverse to going out for chips . . but he would never submit to being her ''boyfriend".  She's got to accept this if she wants a happy life.

 

[besleybean]

I think she has long accepted this...

[Carol the Dabbler]

16 minutes ago, Hikari said:

Sherlock is not the guy to give her peace of mind or a fulfilling family life.  She really needs to give the Inspector a ride on her merry-go-round.  I think that would cure her of needing Sherl's romantic attentions and she could focus on being his friend/Watson stand-in.  Sherlock likes working with her and isn't adverse to going out for chips . . but he would never submit to being her ''boyfriend".  She's got to accept this if she wants a happy life.

 

10 minutes ago, besleybean said:

I think she has long accepted this...

 

I don't think she really has, Bev -- she probably knows it in a fundamental sort of way, but she has not accepted it to the extent that she can actually let go and get on with her life.

The "I love you" incident -- assuming (which I do) that Sherlock explained afterward -- may, oddly enough, have helped her understand the situation better, which may in time enable her to make peace with it.

 

[besleybean]

No I don't think she will get on with her life in the sense of moving on from Sherlock, because she will always love him.

But she knows he will never marry her or even seek a relationship with her.

[T.o.b.y]

11 hours ago, besleybean said:

No I don't think she will get on with her life in the sense of moving on from Sherlock, because she will always love him.

But she knows he will never marry her or even seek a relationship with her.

That's my impression as well. Also that Molly's gotten to a point where she's okay with this state of things because she loves him as he is and to be her boyfriend, he'd have to change too much. 

[Jen]

I agree. Molly will always loves Sherlock, but she's not stupid. She knows it's a impossible love, Sherlock feels only friendship for her. But I'm sure it hurts her. She can't stop loving him, it’s like he’s his obsession, I thought that when I saw her boyfriend ( I can't remember his name) . It's was very... strange. 

 

 

I'll see if I change my mind when I watch the others episode! 

[besleybean]

I know it's silly to love somebody who doesn't love you in return.

But Sherlock is different to other people, so I don't count Molly's devotion as obsession.