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Irene or Molly?  

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  1. 1. Who do you prefer, Irene Adler or Molly?



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Of course, it's not silly. I don't think that at all. Love is never stupid, anyway.  Speaking of obsession, what I meant to say was Molly is so in love with him that she can't go ahead...She loves him and she can't  help herself.  In my mind, it's not silly, it means it's true love. Even if she knows they have no future together, and I think she knows Sherlock couldn't make her happy. 

How difficult it is to explain the way I see it !! 😂 That's even harder to say it in English 😂 ( I hope that my english isn't too bad, this is the first time I’ve been on an English forum, so I thank you for your welcome 🙂

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Your English is perfect!

I understand exactly what you mean.

I think Sherlock could make Molly happy, but he simply chooses not to!

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One of the highlights of 'The Empty Hearse' episode is when Molly joins Sherlock for the day on his investigation into 'Jack the Ripper'.  Molly comports herself very well as the Watson stand-in, even stirring Sherl's jealousy a bit when she exercises her forensic acumen which is a bit superior to his, seeing as she is a forensic pathologist.  Molly earns herself an invitation to the chippie, which she does not accept, on account of Tom waiting at home, but as the two part, she cries while watching Sherlock walk away.   Poor Tom never stood a chance; he was only the Sherlock substitute.  For SH, of course, there can be no substitutes.  For a highly competent professional woman, Molly was like a besotted junior high school girl around Sherl.

I think the events of S4 did finally grow Molly up in terms of her feelings for Sherlock.  She loses the hero worship once she recognizes how he has manipulated her since they met.  Could a collegial friendship survive between them after what he has put her, and himself (and John) through?  Unclear.  I don't think it will ever be the same between Sherlock and any of the people in his life after S4.  Molly might have to transfer hospitals, if seeing Sherlock on a daily basis becomes too painful.  For a woman who made her living cutting up dead people, Molly was a refreshingly innocent spirit, with an intrinsic girlish optimism.  She's lost that innocence and optimism and is now going to be a lot more cynical and cautious going forward.  One thinks, not just with Sherl, but with everyone.  She will be examining this unhealthy romantic fixation on an elusive man who keeps hurting her and questioning her own judgement . . but somewhere deep inside, I think she will always carry the torch for him.  Will she end up spending her life alone, since she can't have him and he's ruined all other men for her?  I hope not, but it seems more likely than her being able to find a man who eclipses SH in her heart.

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Yep, it would have been interesting to have known how her story panned out...

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2 hours ago, Hikari said:

Will she end up spending her life alone, since she can't have him and he's ruined all other men for her?  I hope not, but it seems more likely than her being able to find a man who eclipses SH in her heart.

I don't think she would necessarily need to find a man who "eclipses" Sherlock, maybe just one who fulfills her other needs.

I still have a bit of a leftover crush from high school, even though I've hardly seen the man since (and he recently passed on).  Admittedly that wasn't a Sherlock-sized crush, but in any case, it didn't stand the least bit in the way of my falling in love with Alex, who is realistically a far better fit.

 

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9 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I don't think she would necessarily need to find a man who "eclipses" Sherlock, maybe just one who fulfills her other needs.

I still have a bit of a leftover crush from high school, even though I've hardly seen the man since (and he recently passed on).  Admittedly that wasn't a Sherlock-sized crush, but in any case, it didn't stand the least bit in the way of my falling in love with Alex, who is realistically a far better fit.

 

Presumably even though you had fond memories of your high school crush, and you could think of him with nostalgia, you weren't nursing hopes that you and he would get together eventually, which allowed you to develop a relationship with your husband.

Molly's fixation on Sherlock is more than a crush; she's so obsessed by him that she finds a man as close to his identical image that she can--this was subconsciously done, because she seems oblivious to how much Tom apes Sherlock in his appearance, even though it's obvious to everyone else, even Sherlock himself.  Molly thinks she's 'moved on' but she winds up finding Tom unsatisfactory because he is 'not' Sherlock, despite all her efforts to make him into an SH-substitute.  

One of my favorite bits in my favorite episode is the 'Christmas Drinkies' portion in which Molly is humiliated in front of all her and Sherl's mutual friends when he mocks her attempts to be alluring.  He seems to not realize that all her efforts are for his benefit until he opens her Christmas gift . . a little disingenuous on the part of Mofftiss because Sherl in other places is very aware of Molly's susceptibility to his . .er, charms, and exploits it shamelessly to get cooperation out of her . .complimenting her hairstyle for example.  He is very cruelly dismissive of her other attributes, in their very first interaction and in this drinkies scene--really, one of Sherlock's going for the jugular moments--and she calls him out on it.  But even after that humiliation, and, adding insult to injury, the revelation that Sherlock has had intimate knowledge of another woman (implied) based on his familiarity with 'not her face', she still nurses that crazy passion for her elusive crush object who has been quite frankly abusive.  I think things between them changed a bit after Reichenbach . . maybe Molly assumed that such loyalty would be rewarded when Sherl came back . . and she was disappointed again, hence, Tom.

I think Mols could move on, but it might require removing herself from SH's orbit since he's like her drug.  I like the idea of her with Lestrade, but that would still have her working very closely with Sherl.  And a harried Inspector with the Met is going to have to work too much.  Perhaps our Molly will take a Home Office transfer to Northumberland and meet a nice, uncomplicated Northern bloke.  Someone not into the sciences or police work.  Then her all-encompassing crush on Sherlock Holmes could recede to a safe distance.

 

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3 hours ago, Hikari said:

Presumably even though you had fond memories of your high school crush, and you could think of him with nostalgia, you weren't nursing hopes that you and he would get together eventually, which allowed you to develop a relationship with your husband.

Nope, it's not just nostalgia -- my heart still flutters when I think of my late classmate.  And a few years back (when he was still alive, obviously) he and I were both between relationships simultaneously, and my hopes immediately rekindled, even though (like Molly) I didn't think we were an ideal match.  But Alex sort of eclipses him.  In fact, when I first laid eyes on Alex, my immediate thought was to ask a mutual friend to introduce me to him -- until it occurred to me, a few seconds later, that I already HAD a boyfriend at the time.  Which turned out to have been for the best, because it allowed both of us to mature a bit more.

3 hours ago, Hikari said:

Molly's fixation on Sherlock is more than a crush; she's so obsessed by him that she finds a man as close to his identical image that she can....

Now I'm wondering if Sherlock reminds Molly of her father.  You know what they say.  (And no, Alex actually reminds me more of my mother -- make of that what you will.)

3 hours ago, Hikari said:

He seems to not realize that all her efforts are for his benefit until he opens her Christmas gift . . a little disingenuous on the part of Mofftiss because Sherl in other places is very aware of Molly's susceptibility to his . .er, charms, and exploits it shamelessly to get cooperation out of her . .complimenting her hairstyle for example. 

Good point.  But I guess we all have our blind spots, and this was (from the Moftiss point of view) an opportune time for Sherlock to have one.

3 hours ago, Hikari said:

I think Mols could move on, but it might require removing herself from SH's orbit since he's like her drug.  I like the idea of her with Lestrade, but that would still have her working very closely with Sherl.  And a harried Inspector with the Met is going to have to work too much.  Perhaps our Molly will take a Home Office transfer to Northumberland and meet a nice, uncomplicated Northern bloke.

I can't quite imagine Molly leaving London, Sherlock or no Sherlock.

But there may be a benefit to Greg's being older than Molly.  I just found this on a UK government website, regarding police pensions: "The scheme design permits those officers who remain in the pension scheme to retire and take their pension from age 55, with the pension reduced based on the length of time between retirement and the scheme’s Normal Pension Age (ie 60)...."  Assuming that Greg is now 57 (the same age a Rupert Graves), he could retire at any time.  The way things have been, I doubt he'd be interested in retiring early, but if he thought it would give him a fair chance with Molly....

 

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I'm looking forward to talk to you about other episodes, maybe my opinion will change about Molly and Sherlock 😂

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19 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I can't quite imagine Molly leaving London, Sherlock or no Sherlock.

I don't really have that difficulty . . it seems that Molly lives for her work mostly and spends the majority of her time in the lab. She does not seem plugged into the London social scene.  Not for lack of trying, she's not been able to get a relationship to stick.  She likes the gang that congregates around Sherlock, but not intimately.   She is only connected to the likes of John, Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson through working with Sherlock at St. Barts, and they aren't super close.  We hear nothing about Molly's family, so I always envisioned her as a transplant to London from elsewhere--for university and medical school and then she just stayed on after getting a good job in her field.   The morgue, her flat and her cat--that's what she's got in London, a city which can be exciting but also is full of some pretty bitter memories for Molly.  She did date 'Jim from IT' . . then there was the failed relationship with 'Tom'.  She might be open to a fresh start in another city, particularly if it entails a promotion.  As it stands at St. Barts, she's very junior but she might get more responsibility in a smaller jurisdiction.  DCI Vera Stanhope up in Newcastle seems to run through pathologists at a clip, lol.   

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8 hours ago, Jen said:

I'm looking forward to talk to you about other episodes, maybe my opinion will change about Molly and Sherlock 😂

Do you currently have access to Series 3 and 4? 

Warning:  Fasten your seatbelt!  They have quite a different feel from the first two series.

3 hours ago, Hikari said:

The morgue, her flat and her cat--that's what she's got in London ....

I have no idea what I'm basing this on, but I feel like that's her world.  I think it's pretty clear that she's an introvert, and a shy one at that.  She seems content in her job, so might be leery of taking a chance on another hospital.  Plus, as you say, she's got her cat (though I suppose we have to consider it a non-canonical cat, unless I'm forgetting some brief mention in an episode -- I remember it only from her blog/diary).

3 hours ago, Hikari said:

As it stands at St. Barts, she's very junior....

That's my impression too -- at first I took her to be some sort of lab assistant.  But maybe she just comes across like a bottom-of-the-heap person because she's so shy and introverted.  I don't offhand recall any mention of her boss, or any indication that she has to ask permission for anything.  Come to think of it -- maybe she IS the boss, and that's why Sherlock can have the run of the place?

Do you have any idea why we fans refer to the place as *St.* Barts?  I realize the full name is St. Bartholomew's Hospital, like the sign on the building, but at least in the first two series it's quite consistently referred to either as just Barts or (only once) as Barts Hospital (and I didn't happen to notice any discrepancies in Series 3 or 4).

(In any case, I have no idea whether it's written with an apostrophe or not.  They do seem to be disappearing, though, don't they?)

 

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44 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Avez-vous actuellement accès aux séries 3 et 4? 

Attention: attachez votre ceinture de sécurité! Ils ont une sensation assez différente des deux premières séries.

Yes, I've access to everything. I decided to wait to watch series 3 and 4 ,  to make to pleasure last 😅 

I watch series 1 and 2 several times, these days. First in French ( I need this, to understand everything... ) , then in English ( twice, first with French subtitles, then with English subtitles. ) It help me learn better and improve my English 😅

But I watched the first episode of serie 3. 

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6 hours ago, Jen said:

I watch series 1 and 2 several times, these days. First in French ( I need this, to understand everything... ) , then in English ( twice, first with French subtitles, then with English subtitles. ) It help me learn better and improve my English 😅

That sounds like an excellent system!

I know a little Spanish, so I tried to do something like that once, but I made the mistake of going all-Spanish immediately.  The movie was in English, so both the Spanish soundtrack and the Spanish subtitles were translations -- and they were totally different translations!  If I'd used your gradual system, it might have worked, but the conflict between the two translations got me so confused that I just gave up.

So I applaud you!   :applause:

6 hours ago, Jen said:

I watched the first episode of serie 3.

Ah, "The Empty Hearse."  What did you think of it?

 

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Thank you 😀 I'm very motivated, I always wanted to become bilingual, unfortunately I wasn't good in English or Italian. My best friend was American, she tried to teach me when I was a kid, but I couldn't. My neighbor was English, she tutored me. Despite all that, I was never very good !! Now I really want to be bilingual!! 

 

 

There are too many things that I want to say about this episode, I will comment on the thread about the episode 😅

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20 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

That's my impression too -- at first I took her to be some sort of lab assistant.  But maybe she just comes across like a bottom-of-the-heap person because she's so shy and introverted.  I don't offhand recall any mention of her boss, or any indication that she has to ask permission for anything.  Come to think of it -- maybe she IS the boss, and that's why Sherlock can have the run of the place?

Do you have any idea why we fans refer to the place as *St.* Barts?  I realize the full name is St. Bartholomew's Hospital, like the sign on the building, but at least in the first two series it's quite consistently referred to either as just Barts or (only once) as Barts Hospital (and I didn't happen to notice any discrepancies in Series 3 or 4).

(In any case, I have no idea whether it's written with an apostrophe or not.  They do seem to be disappearing, though, don't they?)

From a very interesting blog page:

https://bakerstreet.fandom.com/wiki/St_Bartholomew's_Hospital

'Barts' is the oldest hospital in London and the oldest in the United Kingdom which still occupies its original site.  Standing in the same spot since 1123!

Dr. Watson gives it its informal moniker on the first page of ASiS, recounting the fateful day he met Sherlock Holmes.  Seems like the 'St' (no period)  is bestowed by civilians while medical professionals 'in the know', particularly ones who work or have worked there drop it.  No apostrophe, either.  Americans apparently like to overpunctuate, where Britons do not.  Never any period at the end of an honorific like 'Mr' or 'St'.  This looks unfinished to my Yank eye, and I confess, as an English teacher the 'Barts' bothers me, because it 'should' be in, but it's one of those charming idiosyncrasies that a city as old as London must be rife with.

On the very day that I had come to this conclusion, I was standing at the Criterion Bar, when some one tapped me on the shoulder, and turning round I recognized young Stamford, who had been a dresser under me at Barts. 

As to Molly's position, I think in the beginning, when she was only intended to be a comic relief character in a couple of scenes in the first episode, they were content to call her a lab assistant.  She and Sherlock have a pre-existing acquaintance, seeing as she allows him access to the morgue to flog unsuspecting bodies.  In the next episode, he's exploiting her again to give him access to the two dead men with tattoos on their feet.  By the time we get to the Reichenbach Fall, Sherlock is asking Molly for an incredibly huge, and possibly career-ending favor, if she's detected--not only has she altered official medical and legal records, but she's actively complicit in the abuse of a corpse, at the very least.  What kind of strings did she have to pull to obtain a body that resembled Sherlock enough at a distance, and with his body type to dress in his clothes and toss out of an upper-storey window?  That's a bit beyond the purview of a mere lab assistant, meaning that she must have the authority to have access to all this stuff and be able to direct staff.  Molly downplays her accomplishments and hides her competitiveness, but we saw the inner heart of 'Dr Hooper' in 'The Abominable Bride'.  Molly hides her light under a bushel so much, it didn't really occur to anyone before then that she is a doctor.  So, with an M.D. in forensic medicine, she is elevated to a junior staff pathologist, qualified to conduct postmortems on her own, reporting to the head of the department.  She's a bit young still to have full charge of somewhere like Barts; it's likely her senior supervisor has a 'Sir' before his name.  But if she's been a qualified pathologist for 10 years, with experience at such an esteemed hospital, I think she'd be ready to be promoted.  If she relocated to a rural county, she could be 'the' pathologist for the entire district.  If she's as ambitious as her 'Bride' alter ego was, I think she'd go for it, and she wouldn't have to pretend to be a man, either.

 

 

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I hadn't thought to check, but of course you're right -- the plain "Barts" moniker (no St -- with or without a period -- and no apostrophe) is indeed introduced in the very first chapter of the very first Holmes story, "Study in Scarlet."  So of course that's what Moftiss would call the place in the scripts!  It seems obvious now that you mention it.

 

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

As to Molly's position, I think in the beginning, when she was only intended to be a comic relief character in a couple of scenes in the first episode, they were content to call her a lab assistant.

Did they actually call her a lab assistant, though?  I don't recall her having any specific title (other than "Miss") or job designation even later on.  There's her ID badge, but it's never shown close-up in the show, and no one seems to know where the close-up photo of it came from -- or even whether that's the same badge she wears in the show.  I agree, she's being treated far more seriously now, but I still don't recall anything very specific.

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

she allows him access to the morgue

Do we actually know who's allowing him access?  Do we even know that he's being "allowed" rather than merely bluffing his way in?  There are a *whole* lot of implications in this show!

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

he's exploiting her again to give him access to the two dead men with tattoos on their feet.

Isn't DI Dimmock (sp?) with him that time, though?  So that one is presumably an official access.

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

By the time we get to the Reichenbach Fall, Sherlock is asking Molly for an incredibly huge, and possibly career-ending favor, if she's detected--not only has she altered official medical and legal records, but she's actively complicit in the abuse of a corpse, at the very least.  What kind of strings did she have to pull to obtain a body that resembled Sherlock enough at a distance, and with his body type to dress in his clothes and toss out of an upper-storey window? 

I'm a bit irked that they gave so few details of what Molly actually did.  In "Empty Hearse," Greg Lestrade says (regarding Sherlock's death) "Molly Hooper laid him out," which I am told means she performed a post-mortem exam, and presumably signed the death certificate.  And there was some talk of her procuring that body (which some fans say is the double that scared the little boarding-school girl in "Reichenbach" -- and Moftiss ain't arguing).  I'm sure that I've already said a lot more about this issue on either the Reichenbach thread or the Empty Hearse one.

 

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

Molly hides her light under a bushel so much, it didn't really occur to anyone before then that she is a doctor.

Quite true!

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

She's a bit young still to have full charge of somewhere like Barts; it's likely her senior supervisor has a 'Sir' before his name.

Quite possibly, but she could still be head of some sub-department, or in some relatively autonomous position, which would give her the authority to do certain things without anyone else's approval.

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

if she's been a qualified pathologist for 10 years, with experience at such an esteemed hospital, I think she'd be ready to be promoted

If that's what floats her boat, sure.  But what if it's not -- what if she actually enjoys doing autopsies and such, and doesn't *want* to be the big boss?  I know a lot of engineers like that -- they don't want to be managers, because then they'd never get to have any fun.

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

If she's as ambitious as her 'Bride' alter ego....

Well, that's Sherlock's view of her, true.  But how well does he understand Molly?  Pretty well in some ways, I think, but probably not in certain other ways.  And how much of that apparent ambition was simply a desire to be respected as a professional?

 

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