Episode 2.1, "A Scandal In Belgravia"

[Van Buren Supernova]

Didn't we discuss it already?

 

Okay, first - invasion of the private sphere... Yessss. If you want me to show my Smaug face, just stay too long and too close when I don't want no one to be around. So I can surely relate to his state of mind. Plus it's Christmas. All should be happy and cuddly and... bleh. He might even not be fully aware of what he's doing, but he's trying to spoil the others' mood by telling them inconvenient truths.

An element of jealousy? Maybe even two. One is because everyone, included John, has a person who is more important than Sherlock and with whom they want to spend the Christmas. The second - now I project my own emotions on him - jealousy of people who are able simply to enjoy things like Christmas.

 

Then comes Molly, looking like a Christmas Tree herself, and first thing she reveals is Sherlock's actual emotional state (he was complaining) Then he sees the present she has in her bag: he realizes that even she finally found someone else. He gets jealous, even if not on a "love" level, he just needs to be the most important person in others' lives. So he grabs the opportunity and vents in the most cruel way.

 

Well, he makes a brilliant deduction that Molly has a love interest, then probably for the first time, he realizes her love interest is HIM. He discovers her feelings by deducing them "from outside" so to say, because he would never dare to acknowledge he could be loved.

 

The other possibility is that he'd known about Molly's crush on him, and "just" got jealous. I know, he would never admit this even to himself, but we often react based on emotions we aren't even aware of.

 

Why he apologize? Even he can recognize when he's gone too far. He was so nasty to her just because she loved him.

And maybe he also felt exposed, because I think everyone in the room guessed whose name was on the card, alone by his reaction.

His own deduction backfired on him.

 

I think you nailed it.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

 

He was shown very irritated when Molly started to comments on everyone and snapped when she talked about him. I would be too if someone disclosed something that I shared with them privately to everyone, especially something that he thought as his 'weakness'.

 

Molly was also quite a clot here, she didn't catch that he was irritated before she mentioned about him, but I also defend her because she wanted to catch his attention desperately.

 

I love that the first time he read Molly's note, he was about to walk away, stop for a second and turned back to apologize to her. At that moment, beside feeling guilty he also felt a bit happy to digest that the present was for him. (Because I believe the jealous theory).

 

Sherlock, like many other people who try to detach their emotion and view the world with logic, didn't aware how much impact and effect he has on the people around him.

He didn't aware that he was the glue of the group, didn't aware that he was being so loved and cared for, how much he hurt them and how much they put up with him. 

He might somewhat aware, but not to the extent that he could be loved that much.

 

I still think he questions and forgets it all the time, and be surprised all over again.

Like how John believed and begged for him not to jump, how he thinks of him as best friend and how much grieve for his death, how happy Lestrade to see him again, the willingness of Molly to trust and help him unconditionally, and when Anderson dedicated his life and effort for him.

 

He is learning, like most of us, or maybe I speak for myself.

[Arcadia]

I admit I never thought of jealousy as a motivation, that's what interested me about the quote I quoted. It makes perfect sense the way you two put it, though. (Did we discuss this angle before? I think my brain has started deleting things without my input.)

 

I also noted recently the really disparaging roll of the eyes from Sherlock when Molly first entered the flat ... he was particularly displeased to see her, I assumed because she's just too "girly" for him. I still think of Sherlock at this point as a man who thinks women are generally rather stupid and useless. Maybe that's why I miss the jealousy angle? And maybe that's why the apology to Molly is such a surprise; he hasn't exactly been a model of empathy before now, especially around her.

[J.P.]

The eye roll to me was more a reaction on how she appeared at the party. With the bags and all....

 

Now, you have send me back to the video.

 

Well, he is playing violin and is still quite nice to Mrs Hudson. Then comes the scene with Janine - and he practically gives away the fact that John is a skirt chaser. His mood still seems to be kind of "balanced". It changes abruptly when Molly comes - he says "Oh, dear Lord" when he sees her on the stairs.

 

Well, that's interesting. It looks like Molly's presence makes him very uncomfortable, and he reacts with anger. Then he tries to withdraw himself from the situation by opening John's blog and tries to engage John in a discussion about it. The second reminds me of a child who tries to call attention of his parents on a party (know what I mean?)

 

@Arcadia: Sherlock could also be jealous of John - if he assumed the people have come for John and not for him.

 

His deduction could be also a way to draw attention from Molly... by showing off.

 

There can be another hidden trigger somewhere - Sherlock always gets nasty facing competition, or resistance...

 

 

Sherlock, like many other people who try to detach their emotion and view the world with logic, didn't aware how much impact and effect he has on the people around him.

He didn't aware that he was the glue of the group, didn't aware that he was being so loved and cared for, how much he hurt them and how much they put up with him. 

He might somewhat aware, but not to the extent that he could be loved that much.

 

This can be intimidating, especially if you are not aware, or try to eliminate your feelings for others. Because you might feel like you OWE something to people because they love you, and cannot figure out what it actually is. If you think you are unlovable you will try to prove it.

 

I wonder where such moments in Moffat's writing come from. Is this his own experience, or does he know someone like Sherlock? He cannot know me...

[Arcadia]

Still don't quite get the jealousy angle, I'm afraid. I agree he was showing off, and I'm guessing he's cynical about "the Christmas spirit" in general .... and yeah, it sounds right to me that he was trying, on some level, to spoil everyone else's fun because it was all for them, it wasn't about HIM. (Ironic, then, that the one person who was very much there for him is the person he poured the most vitriol on.)

 

I guess one thing I'm trying to fathom ... why insert this scene into this particular story? Maybe I'm trying to make connections where there aren't any? I mean, normally I would assume anything that happens in a story has some bearing on it, but in a serialzed tale, that's not always the case, is it? Sometimes things will happen in one episode that have no relevance until 3 episodes later.

 

But if the Christmas scene IS meant to illustrate something within the larger context of Sherlock's encounter with Irene, I'm at a bit of a loss to figure out what it is. Hmmmm...

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think that it was aely that pointed out that Sherlock's behavior very like someone on the verge of, and desperately trying to avoid, some kind of a over active sensory meltdown and Molly was the last straw. Like a claustrophobic stuck on a crowded elevator and just before the right floor can be reached, the elevator stops, the door opens, and there stands more people to get on. Yes, Sherlock is a show off, that's what they do, after all. But if it was just pure jealousy, was did Sherlock feel so bad about his outburst even to the point of giving her that sweet little chaste kiss on the cheek. That was not an act. Nor do I feel that finding Irene's phone and believing her dead and his reaction to that was an act either. He did actually care. I could be missing something important, of course, but I can't see any reason for him to fake anything pertaining to his feelings for these women.

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

I also noted recently the really disparaging roll of the eyes from Sherlock when Molly first entered the flat ... he was particularly displeased to see her, I assumed because she's just too "girly" for him. I still think of Sherlock at this point as a man who thinks women are generally rather stupid and useless. Maybe that's why I miss the jealousy angle? And maybe that's why the apology to Molly is such a surprise; he hasn't exactly been a model of empathy before now, especially around her.

While I understand while he was annoyed when Molly started talking about everyone and him, I also don't get it why he was already pissed by the time she appeared.

I think at that point, Sherlock didn't really consider Molly as someone close yet, she was still in outer layer, therefore he was annoyed that she was also invited to the party.

 

For how Sherlock views women, imho, he doesn't really have a bone for racism, sexism or others. He views everything as equal and alright. He was definitely not homophobic or xenophobic. He despises stupidity though, at the same time appreciate intelligence, it was shown that he appreciate Jennifer Wilson, Irene Adler, So Lin's intelligence.

 

Another thing come up in my mind.

If, and it's very possible, the Christmas party was John's idea. I can see that being him, he would try to invite Mycroft. I really want to see Mycroft's reactions :lol:.

[sfmpco]

 

 

I also noted recently the really disparaging roll of the eyes from Sherlock when Molly first entered the flat ... he was particularly displeased to see her, I assumed because she's just too "girly" for him. I still think of Sherlock at this point as a man who thinks women are generally rather stupid and useless. Maybe that's why I miss the jealousy angle? And maybe that's why the apology to Molly is such a surprise; he hasn't exactly been a model of empathy before now, especially around her.

While I understand while he was annoyed when Molly started talking about everyone and him, I also don't get it why he was already pissed by the time she appeared.

I think at that point, Sherlock didn't really consider Molly as someone close yet, she was still in outer layer, therefore he was annoyed that she was also invited to the party.

 

For how Sherlock views women, imho, he doesn't really have a bone for racism, sexism or others. He views everything as equal and alright. He was definitely not homophobic or xenophobic. He despises stupidity though, at the same time appreciate intelligence, it was shown that he appreciate Jennifer Wilson, Irene Adler, So Lin's intelligence.

 

Another thing come up in my mind.

If, and it's very possible, the Christmas party was John's idea. I can see that being him, he would try to invite Mycroft. I really want to see Mycroft's reactions :lol:.

 

 

Mycroft's reaction would be "The people.  The noise."

[Shadow Dweller]

Or, "Thank you, John, that is very kind of you. Unfortunately, [insert some sort of official business here as excuse]. Please give my regard to Mrs. Hudson," [note to self, send Martha Hudson a Christmas card].

 

There are people who by one reason or another choose to not attend such gathering but for someone in Mycroft's position, it need to be an isolated incident. He cannot have any kind of position outside of bottom-feeder if he openly scorn public gathering just because he need to conserve energy. Everything must have a good reason (both public and private) and not because only he didn't feel like doing it.

[J.P.]

The party surely wasn't Sherlock's idea. He had to be talked into it.

 

As for Mycroft - I don't think he would try to be nice in saying no. He hates Christmas, as you can see while he talks to Sherlock on the phone about Irene (or later, in HLV). Probably Sherlock just told John: don't even try to invite Mycroft.

 

 

While I understand while he was annoyed when Molly started talking about everyone and him, I also don't get it why he was already pissed by the time she appeared.

I think at that point, Sherlock didn't really consider Molly as someone close yet, she was still in outer layer, therefore he was annoyed that she was also invited to the party.

 

This is quite interesting - who's idea was it? Who from the other Guests know Molly? Does John know her enough to invite her? He has seen her with "Jim from IT" once... Of course he could meet her at Barts several times. Noticed her crush on Sherlock and... tried to bring those two together? What a risky idea! It is possible that she was a "Xmas Surprise". John could say something like: I invited someone special you will be happy to see. This could explain Sherlock's reaction.

 

BTW: Mrs Hudson says the boys have to be nice to one another at Christmas. Help me: how long do John and Sherlock know each other at that point?

[Shadow Dweller]

Except for the first time (kidnapping/spying offer/test), Mycroft always polite when talking with John. It is with Sherlock that sparks begin to fly around.

[Shadow Dweller]

If John passed the 'lie to Sherlock' test, he might be considered to be let in in the Reichenbach secret but it also point that there's possibility of John being used as unwitting pawn by unfriendly party who managed to engage his sympathy at the future. No win for John here, the second point negated the certainly of him being informed of Sherlock's not dead status before time even in an extreme situation.

[sfmpco]

The party surely wasn't Sherlock's idea. He had to be talked into it.

 

As for Mycroft - I don't think he would try to be nice in saying no. He hates Christmas, as you can see while he talks to Sherlock on the phone about Irene (or later, in HLV). Probably Sherlock just told John: don't even try to invite Mycroft.

 

 

While I understand while he was annoyed when Molly started talking about everyone and him, I also don't get it why he was already pissed by the time she appeared.

I think at that point, Sherlock didn't really consider Molly as someone close yet, she was still in outer layer, therefore he was annoyed that she was also invited to the party.

 

This is quite interesting - who's idea was it? Who from the other Guests know Molly? Does John know her enough to invite her? He has seen her with "Jim from IT" once... Of course he could meet her at Barts several times. Noticed her crush on Sherlock and... tried to bring those two together? What a risky idea! It is possible that she was a "Xmas Surprise". John could say something like: I invited someone special you will be happy to see. This could explain Sherlock's reaction.

 

BTW: Mrs Hudson says the boys have to be nice to one another at Christmas. Help me: how long do John and Sherlock know each other at that point?

 

Actually,Mrs. Hudson says it's the one day of the year where the boys have to be nice to her.    

 

At this point the boys should have known each other for about eleven months if you go by the dates in Molly's blog as a starting point.

[Arcadia]

This is quite interesting - who's idea was it? Who from the other Guests know Molly? Does John know her enough to invite her? He has seen her with "Jim from IT" once... Of course he could meet her at Barts several times. Noticed her crush on Sherlock and... tried to bring those two together? What a risky idea! It is possible that she was a "Xmas Surprise". John could say something like: I invited someone special you will be happy to see. This could explain Sherlock's reaction.

 

Well, Greg knew Molly, and I can easily imagine John getting to know her better at Bart's. Matchmaking, though? I don't know, it doesn't seem John's style, especially since he knows Sherlock isn't interested.

 

I personally think Molly was just the straw that broke the camel's back -- everyone was being festive (I can imagine Sherlock hates festive! ) and then chirpy, positive, sentimental Molly shows up (I'm imagining that's how he thinks of her). Arggghh, too much nice!

 

BTW: Mrs Hudson says the boys have to be nice to one another at Christmas. Help me: how long do John and Sherlock know each other at that point?

Actually, I think what she says is that the boys have to be nice to her at Christmas. And I've wondered the same thing about how long they've known each other, since that statement implies this is not their first Christmas together.

 

According to John's blog they first met on Jan 29, and the Christmas party's on Dec 25 ... but of course there's no year listed. So it could have been Christmas of the same year, or Christmas a year or two on. But if the latter is true, that would mean at least a year went by from the end of TBB (which happens in March) until the confrontation with Jim at the pool (also in March --  but the same March?). Not impossible, but it feels funny..... and the dates on John's blog aren't reliable anyway.

 

Not much help, am I? :p

[Van Buren Supernova]

This is quite interesting - who's idea was it? Who from the other Guests know Molly? Does John know her enough to invite her? He has seen her with "Jim from IT" once... Of course he could meet her at Barts several times. Noticed her crush on Sherlock and... tried to bring those two together? What a risky idea! It is possible that she was a "Xmas Surprise". John could say something like: I invited someone special you will be happy to see. This could explain Sherlock's reaction.  

 

Well, Greg knew Molly, and I can easily imagine John getting to know her better at Bart's. Matchmaking, though? I don't know, it doesn't seem John's style, especially since he knows Sherlock isn't interested.

I think it's quite natural, when John tried to list Sherlock's friend, basically he didn't have a lot of choice. Mrs. Hudson was obvious, Mycroft rejected him.

He basically only had Lestrade on the list, and Molly would be the second, or third after Mike Stamford.

 

For a guy who brought those two together, he deserved to get more air time and be invited to the party...!

 

Except for the first time (kidnapping/spying offer/test), Mycroft always polite when talking with John. It is with Sherlock that sparks begin to fly around.

Mycroft always has 'good' manner, he wears decent clothes to Buckingham Palace FGS...  

[Arcadia]

Molly must've been so excited to get the invitation. Poor Molly.....

[sittything]

I rewatched ASIB over the weekend.  I do this... A LOT.  I should probably just change my fav season 2 episodes from TRF to ASIB, honestly.  The thing I love about this episode is that no matter how many times I watch it, I never really get answers to my questions.  Like I don't think I'll ever really know "What does Sherlock feel towards Irene?"  "Why does he kiss and apologize to Molly in this instance when he's certainly trounced all over her in the past?"   I'm always just as perplexed after a rewatch trying to decipher the actions and feelings of Sherlock as I am before I hit play once again.

[Arcadia]

Same here! I still feel like the conversation between Irene and John sails somewhere over my head, for instance. Just a lovely, lovely episode. And I finally did change it to my S2 favorite!

[sfmpco]

This was the one episode I watched over and over to make sure I was understanding all the subtleties.  Not sure I ever will, but it's not as straight-forward as some make it out to be.  It's very complex.  

[sfmpco]

Nice little article over on Sherlockology about the end of ASIB:

 

http://www.sherlockology.com/news/2015/6/2/sherlocked-after-sherlock-rescued-irene-020615

[Shadow Dweller]

Moftiss, please give me a shot of their parting moment please XD

[sfmpco]

Not only that, but Sherlocked hacked up some people...which means he did kill (which I always knew) before Magnussen.  

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I could tell by the way he started swinging that others would have been at least injured if not killed. I daresay if it wasn't instant death it was a bleed to death situation.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I love the parade of clients!

 

Yes, I would like to have seen more about the comic book guys because even Sherlock was intrigued by that one.

Here you go!

 

[J.P.]

Sorry, have overseen your posts

 

Nor do I feel that finding Irene's phone and believing her dead and his reaction to that was an act either. He did actually care. I could be missing something important, of course, but I can't see any reason for him to fake anything pertaining to his feelings for these women.

 

Did you see our alternative interpretation?

 

I guess one thing I'm trying to fathom ... why insert this scene into this particular story? Maybe I'm trying to make connections where there aren't any? I mean, normally I would assume anything that happens in a story has some bearing on it, but in a serialzed tale, that's not always the case, is it? Sometimes things will happen in one episode that have no relevance until 3 episodes later.

 

But if the Christmas scene IS meant to illustrate something within the larger context of Sherlock's encounter with Irene, I'm at a bit of a loss to figure out what it is. Hmmmm...

 

Hmm... I see it mostly as a typical "character development" scene.

[Arcadia]

Yes, I think I'm overthinking it. Dang it, we need a new episode .... :D