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[Hikari]

15 hours ago, bedelia1984 said:

Sorry to nitpick, but Saoirse Ronan is Irish and we aren't part of of the UK, not the republic of Ireland where Ronan is from anyway.

Apologies for a classic American blunder.  Actually, I am aware the Northern Ireland is part of the UK and the Republic of Ireland is not.  I should have amended my earlier lumping her in with the two actresses from England.  To be honest the great majority of my countrymen don't know that 'Ireland' and 'Northern Ireland' are different.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

10 minutes ago, Hikari said:

I think any resemblance to The Devil's Foot was coincidental; that is a plant-derived drug and the Devil's Claw of this book refers to a mineral deposit on a cliff in Guernsey that looks like a claw mark made by a beast.

Do you happen to know whether Devil's Claw is an actual bit of Guernsey folklore, or if it was invented by the author?  In either case, it does seem to me that a novelist writing a crime-solving novel is bound to have some influence (consciously or otherwise) from Conan Doyle's stories, which could include choosing a title that echoes one of his (even though the plot sounds very different).  There's presumably no way of knowing for sure, though -- possibly even if you are said author.

17 minutes ago, Hikari said:

I will be taking a virtual tour of Guernsey very soon and hope to find all this out.

Be sure to post your findings!  

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

16 hours ago, bedelia1984 said:

Saoirse Ronan is Irish and we aren't part of of the UK

  

14 minutes ago, Hikari said:

I am aware the Northern Ireland is part of the UK and the Republic of Ireland is not.  I should have amended my earlier lumping her in with the two actresses from England.

Which raises a question that's puzzled me for ages:  Is there some accurate and acceptable way of referring to that group of islands (and its people)?  I'm not sure that even the often-used "Ireland and the UK" does it -- aren't there some smaller islands in the group that are not part of either political entity?  If Scotland decides to leave the UK, this question will become even more convoluted -- even though neither the islands nor the people will have changed physically.

I guess a similar situation exists in the Caribbean -- lots of different countries sharing a group of islands.  But at least there's a logical name for that group, namely the Caribbean islands (or the islands of the Caribbean).

 

[Hikari]

1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Do you happen to know whether Devil's Claw is an actual bit of Guernsey folklore, or if it was invented by the author?  In either case, it does seem to me that a novelist writing a crime-solving novel is bound to have some influence (consciously or otherwise) from Conan Doyle's stories, which could include choosing a title that echoes one of his (even though the plot sounds very different).  There's presumably no way of knowing for sure, though -- possibly even if you are said author.

Be sure to post your findings!  

 

https://guernseydonkey.com/guernsey-legends-duke-richard-of-normandy-and-the-devil/

The tale of Duke Richard of Normandy (William the Conqueror's brother) and his settlement of Guernsey after being dropped on the island by the Devil was first published in written form in 1576 according to this article.  The tale itself is probably 500 years older than that.  The author no doubt is a fan of Conan Doyle, but she took her inspiration from her Guernsey heritage and not Arthur's Victorian story published more than 300 years after this legend was.  Arthur himseld took The Devil's Foot from a botanical specimen, so he didn't invent that, either.

[bedelia1984]

4 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

  

Which raises a question that's puzzled me for ages:  Is there some accurate and acceptable way of referring to that group of islands (and its people)?  I'm not sure that even the often-used "Ireland and the UK" does it -- aren't there some smaller islands in the group that are not part of either political entity?  If Scotland decides to leave the UK, this question will become even more convoluted -- even though neither the islands nor the people will have changed physically.

I guess a similar situation exists in the Caribbean -- lots of different countries sharing a group of islands.  But at least there's a logical name for that group, namely the Caribbean islands (or the islands of the Caribbean).

 

I have heard people in Great Britain use the term 'British Isles' but it's not a phrase any Irish person would use, I guess because of not identifying as British. It's a tricky one. I guess the acceptability depends on whose point of view you consider. I know British papers will routinely describe people like Saoirse Ronan or Sinead O'Connor as British and there is usually an uproar about it here in the republic. I also find it confusing because Ireland is officially 'Ireland' legally, not the republic of, and then we have Northern Ireland, as a separate entity.

As an aside, I always love Moriarty drinking from that UK/ Ireland teacup precisely because of the complicated relationship between the two places and the prevalence of hidden enemies, informants and back-stabbings throughout the history of it. 

 

5 hours ago, Hikari said:

Apologies for a classic American blunder.  Actually, I am aware the Northern Ireland is part of the UK and the Republic of Ireland is not.  I should have amended my earlier lumping her in with the two actresses from England.  To be honest the great majority of my countrymen don't know that 'Ireland' and 'Northern Ireland' are different.  

 

No bother at all, I just thought I should say. American television is appalling at this, I still haven't gotten over the Gilmore Girls and the train they took from London to Dublin.

[Hikari]

22 hours ago, bedelia1984 said:

I have heard people in Great Britain use the term 'British Isles' but it's not a phrase any Irish person would use, I guess because of not identifying as British. It's a tricky one. I guess the acceptability depends on whose point of view you consider. I know British papers will routinely describe people like Saoirse Ronan or Sinead O'Connor as British and there is usually an uproar about it here in the republic. I also find it confusing because Ireland is officially 'Ireland' legally, not the republic of, and then we have Northern Ireland, as a separate entity.

As an aside, I always love Moriarty drinking from that UK/ Ireland teacup precisely because of the complicated relationship between the two places and the prevalence of hidden enemies, informants and back-stabbings throughout the history of it. 

 

 

No bother at all, I just thought I should say. American television is appalling at this, I still haven't gotten over the Gilmore Girls and the train they took from London to Dublin.

Cor, that was a nifty trick!  Didn't realize the Chunnel went from London Paddington to Dublin. 

America is a vast country geographically, but due to being surrounded by ocean on both sides makes us like an island in our thinking at times.  A gigantic overgrown island, to be sure, but the effect of being isolated from other countries is the same.  Not that we have taken it upon ourselves to learn very much about the countries with which we do share a landmass, to be honest.

I will always remember a conversation I had with an Irish girl I met while we were both teaching English in Japan in the 1990s.  She had attended secondary school in England--don't ask me where now because I've forgotten--but she went with some school friends on a trip to France.   The locals in the shops and whatnot were pretty rude to this group of young ladies--but when they found out that this girl was Irish, their tune totally changed.  They were falling all over themselves to be nice to her, in spite of her tentative French--and only to her--because she wasn't English.  I had a laugh at that.  I liked her immediately.  She also admitted that she had flunked Irish language class.  

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[Hikari]

Um, what is going on here?

 

PS  . .OK, it's looking normal now.  When I first posted, all I got in the above space were two blocks that said Page 1 and Page 2.  My post wasn't appearing.  New one on me!

[Carol the Dabbler]

On 5/25/2021 at 4:21 PM, bedelia1984 said:

have heard people in Great Britain use the term 'British Isles' but it's not a phrase any Irish person would use, I guess because of not identifying as British. It's a tricky one.

Yup!  Maybe we should try to think of another term?

On 5/25/2021 at 4:21 PM, bedelia1984 said:

I still haven't gotten over the Gilmore Girls and the train they took from London to Dublin.

I have no idea how it was portrayed on there, but in all fairness I did once "take a train" from Paris to London, long before the Chunnel was available.  We took one train from Paris to the coast, then got off the train and onto a ferry to cross the Channel, then onto another train that took us on to London.  But the whole thing was referred to as going by train.  So perhaps that's what the Gilmore Girls did?  Assuming there was ferry service.

4 hours ago, Hikari said:

They were falling all over themselves to be nice to her, in spite of her tentative French--and only to her--because she wasn't English.

It seems that hostility can live on long after whatever prompted is has ceased.  Not sure why French people would be rude to English people, but I'd be willing to bet that it goes back to some historical event or situation.  Note, though, that the same story could be told, just substituting "American" for "English" and "Canadian" for "Irish," and it'd reportedly still be true of large portions of Europe.  Again, not sure exactly why.

 

[bedelia1984]

18 hours ago, Hikari said:

• Previous Page
•  

• ...I will always remember a conversation I had with an Irish girl I met while we were both teaching English in Japan in the 1990s.  She had attended secondary school in England--don't ask me where now because I've forgotten--but she went with some school friends on a trip to France.   The locals in the shops and whatnot were pretty rude to this group of young ladies--but when they found out that this girl was Irish, their tune totally changed.  They were falling all over themselves to be nice to her, in spite of her tentative French--and only to her--because she wasn't English.  I had a laugh at that.  I liked her immediately.  She also admitted that she had flunked Irish language class.  

•  

I also visited Paris in school, from Ireland, and I was advised by my French teacher to let people know I was from Ireland if I wanted better treatment!

14 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Yup!  Maybe we should try to think of another term?

I have no idea how it was portrayed on there, but in all fairness I did once "take a train" from Paris to London, long before the Chunnel was available.  We took one train from Paris to the coast, then got off the train and onto a ferry to cross the Channel, then onto another train that took us on to London.  But the whole thing was referred to as going by train.  So perhaps that's what the Gilmore Girls did?  Assuming there was ferry service.

It seems that hostility can live on long after whatever prompted is has ceased.  Not sure why French people would be rude to English people, but I'd be willing to bet that it goes back to some historical event or situation.  Note, though, that the same story could be told, just substituting "American" for "English" and "Canadian" for "Irish," and it'd reportedly still be true of large portions of Europe.  Again, not sure exactly why.

 

It's technically possible, as I know people who had to come home for Christmas and couldn't get a flight from London to Dublin, and they did a ferry and then train.

However, it takes just under 14 hours to do so, and costs a lot too, (that ferry would only run twice a day, sometimes trains get delayed too) whereas a cheap flight London to Dublin would be less expensive and get you there in under an hour...

Perhaps the Gilmore Girls were gluttons for punishment!

Even though there have been several wars between France and England they were all very long ago, however the habit of despising does seem to die hard for some people.

My mum (from Ireland) worked in London in the 70s and there were signs in many workplaces advising 'No Dogs and no Irish' need apply... which quite recent, and yet the open animosity seems less strong here than between France and England- maybe because our history is just too close and in the case of Northern Ireland too current for people to allow themselves that sort of casual spite.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

3 hours ago, bedelia1984 said:

It's technically possible, as I know people who had to come home for Christmas and couldn't get a flight from London to Dublin, and they did a ferry and then train.

However, it takes just under 14 hours to do so, and costs a lot too, (that ferry would only run twice a day, sometimes trains get delayed too) whereas a cheap flight London to Dublin would be less expensive and get you there in under an hour...

Perhaps the Gilmore Girls were gluttons for punishment!

I've never seen the show, so I thought maybe it was something of a period piece, set back when passenger planes weren't so common -- but I just checked, and nope, it seems to be set in the early 21st century.  So yeah, somebody didn't do their homework!

3 hours ago, bedelia1984 said:

My mum (from Ireland) worked in London in the 70s and there were signs in many workplaces advising 'No Dogs and no Irish' need apply.

Dear God -- in the nineteen seventies?  I've read that similar signs were also common over here in the US, but that was a hundred years earlier, when there was a large number of Irish immigrants following the potato famine.  I'm not aware that there's any anti-Irish prejudice here any more.

 

[bedelia1984]

4 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

 

Dear God -- in the nineteen seventies?  I've read that similar signs were also common over here in the US, but that was a hundred years earlier, when there was a large number of Irish immigrants following the potato famine.  I'm not aware that there's any anti-Irish prejudice here any more.

 

It actually would fit with the times because it was during 'The troubles' when there were bombings in London etc, and terrible violence in Northern Ireland, kneecappings bombings, people disappearing... a lot of violence connected with extremists. It's understandable in that way.

[Carol the Dabbler]

26 minutes ago, bedelia1984 said:

it was during 'The troubles' when there were bombings in London etc, and terrible violence in Northern Ireland, kneecappings bombings, people disappearing... a lot of violence connected with extremists. It's understandable in that way.

Oh, right.  It doesn't seem so random, then.  Kinda like the hostility some of our friends from India experienced right after 9/11 simply becaue they look something like people from countries that were harboring terrorists.  People tend to get lumped together, which is regrettable -- but understandable, since we have neither the time nor the ability to do background checks on everyone we meet.

 

[Caya]

Not a book recommendation but I figured this was the best thread for it:

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't generally have the patience to let a book sit around without being read!

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Anybody else been reading the No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency novels?  Would be interested in your take on them (and then willing to share mine).

 

[Caya]