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Did Mycroft knew Mary was a freelancer? Why didn't he try to save her when Sherlock told him Ajay is around?


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Sherlock goes to Mycroft's office and tells him about Mary. Look at Mycroft's face when he says this if you have access to this episode. It makes me wonder what Mycroft knew about John's wife. Mycroft says assassins like her don't die naturally. I assume she works for the MI6, among others. If she were a villain Mycroft wouldn't have even allowed her to approach John in the first place and would've gotten her out of the country.  In another episode Mycroft calls M and that's Bond's boss. No wonder Mycroft works for the government. He has access to an unbeliveable amount of secret documents as far the plot of this series goes. John and Sherlock also behave like criminals at times.

Mycroft knows who Ajay is, yet isn't concerned about him. The guy knows something and is a threat to Mary, but Mycroft shows no sign of interest. Ajay could even threaten Lady Smallwood and reveal MI6 secrets! He's convinced Mary's a traitor. Then Sherlock angrily says "not on my watch" which shows that he knows a few things about Mary, others apparently don't. For reference resd my question on Mary shooting Sherlock, but not killing him. Shouldn't Mycroft be interest in a man like Ajay, who after years in captivity may pose a threat to British security?

Mary is John's wife. She's pregnant as well and a friend of Sherlock's. Mycroft is Sherlock's brother. Lady Smallwood is Mycroft's girlfriend (at least I see it like that, though it's not explained), so a lot of people are connected to each other.

I found this issue to be quite puzzling. It's another example of inconsistencies in the plot of the series. Comments welcome as usual, I mean that's what we're here for! Cheers!!

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4 hours ago, Kat said:

I assume she works for the MI6, among others. If she were a villain Mycroft wouldn't have even allowed her to approach John in the first place and would've gotten her out of the country.

Yeah, you'd think so!  But on the other hand, he took a hands-off attitude toward Magnussen.  Maybe he figured it would be easier to keep an eye on her if she was married to John.  Heaven knows I don't understand how Mycroft's mind works!

4 hours ago, Kat said:

It's another example of inconsistencies in the plot of the series.

Right -- sometimes it's hard to tell where the plot leaves off and the inconsistencies begin.  Or maybe the apparent inconsistencies are merely areas where we don't have all the data.

 

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Here's a thought ... just because Mycroft knows doesn't mean he cares. He protects the people HE cares about, his parents and Sherlock ... but is there any indication he protects the people Sherlock cares about? I can't remember.

Besides, he seems pretty hands off as long as Sherlock isn't taking on someone that Mycroft has an interest in. He didn't intervene during the Blind Banker or Hounds, e.g.

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9 hours ago, Arcadia said:

he seems pretty hands off as long as Sherlock isn't taking on someone that Mycroft has an interest in. He didn't intervene during the Blind Banker or Hounds, e.g.

... and if he had, there went the plot!  :D

 

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"Or maybe the apparent inconsistencies are merely areas where we don't have all the data." Well, said. That's what I mentioned in my question about Mary meeting Sherlock in Leinster Gardens. She took a gun there and shot a coin. My question is on my profile. It really did cause a stirr on the forum, but in a good way.

I said if Sherlock knew she had a bad plan he wouldn't have her meet John anyway. Sherlock says he asked Mary into the empty house to sort something out with her husband. He knows she didn't kill him. It seems he spend quite a long time alone thinking things over and then asking John and Mary to come separately. His absence caused Molly, Lestrade and Mycroft to look for him. You'd think the whole Yard was trying to catch a lunatic! But it's Sherlock who ran away from a normal hospital. He reached some conclusions is what I assume. As for Mary carrying a gun I took it as a safety measure because Magnussen's around. That's never explained though. It would be nice to see what Sherlock came up with. He spent the whole day in that house and part of the evening. John says Mary will be treated like a client on the sofa in Baker Street and then we learn what we learn.

As for Mycroft I'd have thought the appearance of Ajay who could threaten his girlfirend Lady Smallwood would be enough to spring him into action. The guy was in captivity. No wonder Sherlock's angry at his brother's indifference and says "not on my watch". There's that face Mycroft pulls when Sherlock asks him if he knew who Mary was. I don't see an indication of Mycroft being suspicous of Mary. He seems impressed with her hacking skills in the special. What if he sent Mary on purpose so she could keep an eye on John and Sherlock to stop them from doing silly things? In The Empty House she seems to behave as a mediator and Mycroft doesn't attempt to stop the wedding. It made me think. Also in season 4 if you look closely Mycroft seems to be horrified at Mary's death.

It's stated that Mary worked for other people, yes, but I doubt one of them would be a baddie like Bond's Blofeld. You pick a side. In real life we do that too. In the special Mary works for Mycroft. Sure it's in Sherlock's head, but it's a clue. The problem is this is never explained. Honestly this series is making me irritated at times. Sure, it's interesting, but when anger comes in ober plot holes I understand why some users and viewers may want Sherlock to end with a season full of clarifications.

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38 minutes ago, Kat said:

As for Mary carrying a gun I took it as a safety measure because Magnussen's around. That's never explained though.

She came to Leinster Gardens expecting to meet Sherlock, I think.  Maybe she thought he might try to trick her, so she needed the gun to protect herself?  She didn't seem to trust him.

42 minutes ago, Kat said:

It's stated that Mary worked for other people, yes, but I doubt one of them would be a baddie like Bond's Blofeld. You pick a side. In real life we do that too. In the special Mary works for Mycroft. Sure it's in Sherlock's head, but it's a clue.

Good point.  It's at least a clue that Sherlock thought of her in that way.

44 minutes ago, Kat said:

Honestly this series is making me irritated at times.

:rofl:   Welcome to the club!

 

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20 hours ago, Kat said:

I said if Sherlock knew she had a bad plan he wouldn't have her meet John anyway. Sherlock says he asked Mary into the empty house to sort something out with her husband. He knows she didn't kill him. It seems he spend quite a long time alone thinking things over and then asking John and Mary to come separately. His absence caused Molly, Lestrade and Mycroft to look for him. You'd think the whole Yard was trying to catch a lunatic! But it's Sherlock who ran away from a normal hospital. He reached some conclusions is what I assume. As for Mary carrying a gun I took it as a safety measure because Magnussen's around. That's never explained though. It would be nice to see what Sherlock came up with. He spent the whole day in that house and part of the evening. John says Mary will be treated like a client on the sofa in Baker Street and then we learn what we learn.

 

19 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

She came to Leinster Gardens expecting to meet Sherlock, I think.  Maybe she thought he might try to trick her, so she needed the gun to protect herself?  She didn't seem to trust him.

That was my assumption as well; Mary wasn't sure what she was walking into, or what kind of reception she was going to get ... and I imagine her default mode is to expect the worst, and be ready to defend herself. As long as Sherlock didn't try to harm her (or capture her) she wasn't going to cause trouble. I hope. :smile: But she wanted to be ready for ... whatever. Although she wasn't, was she? It never occurred to her that Sherlock would bring John into it.

20 hours ago, Kat said:

There's that face Mycroft pulls when Sherlock asks him if he knew who Mary was. I don't see an indication of Mycroft being suspicous of Mary. He seems impressed with her hacking skills in the special. What if he sent Mary on purpose so she could keep an eye on John and Sherlock to stop them from doing silly things? In The Empty House she seems to behave as a mediator and Mycroft doesn't attempt to stop the wedding. It made me think. Also in season 4 if you look closely Mycroft seems to be horrified at Mary's death.

I know they sort of indicated that Mycroft knew "all about" Mary in T6T, but I don't quite believe it. Or rather ... it makes sense to me that he didn't have any inkling who she was until after the events of HLV, at which point I assume he looked into it pretty quick.

There's also no indication (I think?) that Mycroft ever met Mary in person when she was an agent. So I'm willing to believe he never made the connection between sweet Mary Morstan and Agra, until, as I say, the events of HLV made it imperative to find out all he could about her.

And I'm willing to believe that what he found out about her led him to believe Sherlock didn't have anything to fear from her. As to why he didn't take steps to protect her when Ajay appeared ... as I said before, maybe he just didn't care. Or maybe he figured Mary could, and preferred to, take care of herself. After all, she did ask both John and Sherlock let her handle it. And it's possible things might have turned out better for her if they had stayed out of it.

20 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:
20 hours ago, Kat said:

It's stated that Mary worked for other people, yes, but I doubt one of them would be a baddie like Bond's Blofeld. You pick a side. In real life we do that too. In the special Mary works for Mycroft. Sure it's in Sherlock's head, but it's a clue.

Good point.  It's at least a clue that Sherlock thought of her in that way.

True. I hadn't really looked it quite that way before. Maybe Sherlock was the one who knew more than we gave him credit for! :smile: 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

There's also no indication (I think?) that Mycroft ever met Mary in person when she was an agent. So I'm willing to believe he never made the connection between sweet Mary Morstan and Agra, until, as I say, the events of HLV made it imperative to find out all he could about her.

Even if he had met Agra in person, she would have been dressed quite differently and behaving quite differently from sweet little Mary.  So unless he's a super-recognizer*, it would never have occurred to him that she might be the same person.

* or at least a whole lot better with faces than either you or me

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

After all, she did ask both John and Sherlock let her handle it. And it's possible things might have turned out better for her if they had stayed out of it.

Yup.

 

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1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

or at least a whole lot better with faces than either you or me

As far as little ol' me is concerned, that describes about 99% of the world's population. :D

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

As far as little ol' me is concerned, that describes about 99% of the world's population. :D

I put it as confused as police officers make mistakes due to the "99%", but from a grammatical point of view I get the English.

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I just wish we were told what conclusions Sherlock reached in the empty house before calling the interested parties in. 2 sentences would've been enough. He must've spend a whole day there if even his own brother started looking for him! Mycroft engaged the police and that means a lot. I mean when Mycroft gets involved it's important.

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On 5/16/2021 at 8:01 PM, Kat said:

I just wish we were told what conclusions Sherlock reached in the empty house before calling the interested parties in. 2 sentences would've been enough. He must've spend a whole day there if even his own brother started looking for him! Mycroft engaged the police and that means a lot. I mean when Mycroft gets involved it's important.

I think the fact that he seemed to trust Mary completely sort of tells us what conclusions he reached, though.

I don't know if he spent the whole day in the empty house ... he had to set up the projector, find Billy and tell him what to say to Mary, move John's chair ... all of that must've taken some time too, even if Sherlock didn't do it all himself.

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7 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I don't know if he spent the whole day in the empty house ... he had to set up the projector, find Billy and tell him what to say to Mary, move John's chair ... all of that must've taken some time too, even if Sherlock didn't do it all himself.

We're talking about the Leinster Gardens place, right?  Yeah, all that would have taken time, and he would have needed the help of at least one able-bodied person -- presumably Billy and/or John.

This is irrelevant, but it irks me just a teeny bit that there isn't really any "house" whatsoever behind those facades.  (See explanation and photos here.)  That scene was filmed in a studio, of course.

 

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3 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

We're talking about the Leinster Gardens place, right?  Yeah, all that would have taken time, and he would have needed the help of at least one able-bodied person -- presumably Billy and/or John.

This is irrelevant, but it irks me just a teeny bit that there isn't really any "house" whatsoever behind those facades.  (See explanation and photos here.)  That scene was filmed in a studio, of course.

 

I keep thinking how terribly unpleasant that must have been for the people who lived on either side of those fake houses. Can you imagine?

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57 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I keep thinking how terribly unpleasant that must have been for the people who lived on either side of those fake houses. Can you imagine?


Having a creepy fake house next door, you mean?  Or having the noise and smoke and fumes from the original Underground trains wafting up through that empty space?

When my parents were first married, trains were pulled by coal/steam powered engines, and homes were not air conditioned, so windows were open in warm weather.  They bought a house half a block from a railroad track (with just an empty lot in between), and in the living room and dining room, my mother had old-fashioned lace curtains that needed to be washed by hand and then stretched back into shape.  The railroad soot was the bane of her existence.

 

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5 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Or having the noise and smoke and fumes from the original Underground trains wafting up through that empty space?

Yeah, that. It must have been horrible. It must still be horrible, if people actually still live there.

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8 hours ago, Arcadia said:

It must still be horrible, if people actually still live there.

It seems to be a fairly upscale neighborhood, so I doubt there are many vacancies.  There's presumably still a certain amount of noise when a train passes through that section of the tunnel.  But there's no longer any smoke and fumes, because the trains are now electrically powered, which presumably makes them less noisy as well..

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Most people seem unaware of the fake facade. They found out about it after the episode aired, even though they live close by. Trains don't pass through there anymore, doesn't Sherlock literally say this. No electric trains there as it's empty. The Tube passes further away.  Lace curtains were really party of pre 1939 life, yes. The area around modern Leinster Gardens seems wealthy, though. The showrunners said they wanted to include the facade for amusement and see if people knew about this. It's a famous landmark in London. I don't know what the area was like before WW2 though. As it's away from the Docklands I think it was a middle class area. Later it probably became more wealthier. Carol, your parents were wonderful if they could have a separate sitting room from the dining room near a railway track. Filming Sherlock didn't seem to cause much disruption there as most people didn't know what was going on apparently. It's Speedy's cafe and the place where they film the exterior of the flat that onlookers tend to admire making lud nosies when Cumberbatch appears. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/leinster-gardens-false-facades

has accurate images where you can see this strange construction.

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5 hours ago, Kat said:

Trains don't pass through there anymore, doesn't Sherlock literally say this. No electric trains there as it's empty. The Tube passes further away.

The photo blog that I linked to a few posts back included a link [here] to some photos taken a bit more recently, in March 2012, by the same person, including this photo of a train passing through that open area:

ORO4yRb.jpg

It doesn't seem likely that they would have abandoned that line since 2012, seeing as how it passes through such a densely populated area (i.e., trains are needed there, and it would be very difficult to build a new tunnel).  So I suspect that either you're misremembering what Sherlock said (which happens to all of us now and then), or that he was ambiguous.  Could you quote the lines that you're referring to?  (If you don't have them memorized, you can look for them in Ariane DeVere's transcript [here -- and don't worry about the "Discretion Advised" warning, go ahead and click on the Yes button]).

5 hours ago, Kat said:

I don't know what the area was like before WW2 though. As it's away from the Docklands I think it was a middle class area. Later it probably became more wealthier.

According to that original article [here], that row of houses was already there (including two real ones where the fake ones are now) before the tunnel was built.  So they had to tear down those two and then replace them with the false facades.  That was around 1868, so (judging by those fancy houses) it's been a pretty upscale area since well before either World War.

6 hours ago, Kat said:

Carol, your parents were wonderful if they could have a separate sitting room from the dining room near a railway track.

Even though the neighborhood was nothing fancy, it was a nice solid little residential area.  So it's not like we lived next to the railroad yards or in an industrial area -- there just happened to be a railroad track nearby.

6 hours ago, Kat said:

It's Speedy's cafe and the place where they film the exterior of the flat that onlookers tend to admire making lud nosies when Cumberbatch appears.

That's North Gower Street.  And yeah, the tabloids like to say the fans are noisy.  But I was there all day during filming for Sign of Three and some people I know were there for the entire North Gower filming for Series 4, and while there may have been a bit of applause or cheering when the stars first showed up, that was before the crew was even ready to start filming.  Once filming was about to start, the fans were all very well behaved, on both occasions.

 

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4 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

That's North Gower Street.  And yeah, the tabloids like to say the fans are noisy.  But I was there all day during filming for Sign of Three and some people I know were there for the entire North Gower filming for Series 4, and while there may have been a bit of applause or cheering when the stars first showed up, that was before the crew was even ready to start filming.  Once filming was about to start, the fans were all very well behaved, on both occasions.

I remember some interview or other where Moftiss confirmed that ... the crowds are quiet once filming starts.

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Sadly, Speedy's is no more...

at least it was put up for sale.

Whenever I can return to London, I shall investigate what happened.

I too stood and watched the filming there.

Everybody very well behaved and everybody very happy.

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1 hour ago, besleybean said:

Sadly, Speedy's is no more...

at least it was put up for sale.

Whenever I can return to London, I shall investigate what happened.

Are you referring to the conversation from last September [here] which ended with a report that Speedy's (the business, not the building) was for sale?  Tripadvisor [here] has a couple of reviews from last December, but that's the only newer info I've been able to find.  Is there a news update somewhere online?

 

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Not that I am aware of.

I was wondering even if new buyers were found, would they get to keep the memorabilia?

Or will the original owners take it, I mean it does really belong to them...

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