Discussions, thoughts and ramblings on religion

[besleybean]

Only one thing worse than idiot pastors behaving like demi gods...

and that's vulnerable people actually listening to the rubbish spouted.

[Artemis]

On 11/10/2018 at 4:07 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:

But I do know from personal experience that death is not the end.

May I ask what you mean by "personal experience"?  What sort of experience?

 

[besleybean]

I shouldn't second guess...

But I assume a feeling of seeing/hearing a loved one, post their death.

[Carol the Dabbler]

On 4/5/2018 at 12:34 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:

I've had two experiences that I'd be hard-pressed to explain except as communication.  Here's the first one:

Alex and I had taken in a young-adult boy cat who looked in pretty bad shape -- scrawny and mangy-looking.  We kept him separate from the other cats pending a visit to the vet, which was fortunate because Val tested positive for feline leukemia.  He could hear the other cats at a distance and might have occasionally caught a glimpse of Amy when he and she were sitting in their respective favorite windows, but there were always at least two closed doors between them (in order to protect him from whatever random bug his compromised immune system might allow him to catch from them, and of course to keep them from getting his leukemia).  What with regular meals and a comfortable place to live, he was soon looking very healthy.

We visited Val several times a day, but of course he was lonely, and had a unique way of showing it.  Just about every time I knelt down to clean his litter box, he'd jump up onto my shoulders and then sit on the back of my head.  Not the most comfortable position for me, but since he was clearly just being friendly, I'd tolerate it as best I could, then cuddle with him when I was done with my chore.

He had a pretty good year with us, and then the leukemia got him.  A couple of weeks after his passing, I was cleaning the other cats' litter boxes when Walter jumped onto my shoulders and planted his butt firmly on the back of my head.  He had never done that before.  In fact, the only cat who'd ever done that was Val, and Walter had never even met Val.  Walter would do that every so often over the next few months, and I'd say "Hi, Val!"

 

On 4/5/2018 at 3:58 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:

The other incident went like this:

Sarah was staying overnight at the vet's office for a routine treatment.  I was looking forward to bringing her home, but wasn't particularly worried.  As I sat on the edge of the bed at 3 am and turned off my lamp, I was thinking only of getting some sleep.  All of a sudden the blackness in front of me was filled with the glowing larger-than-lifesize face of Daisy, who had passed on a year or two earlier.  She didn't vocalize in any way, but she was beaming with joy.  Not being prone to visions, and not knowing what to make of this, I just said "I love you, Daisy."  Then the vision quickly faded away, and I went to bed.

At 7 am, the phone woke me.  It was the vet, saying he was so sorry, and had no idea what had happened, but when he came in to feed Sarah, she was dead.  I was heartbroken, thinking of her dying alone in that cold metal cage, surrounded by strange cats and dogs in the dark.  It wasn't until later that I suddenly realized she had *not* been alone -- Daisy had come to escort her.

I had posted those on another thread in April.  They're what I was talking about when I said that I know from personal experience that death is not the end.  And of course I'm also firmly convinced that cats have souls.

[besleybean]

The only way I can relate to this is that when I was a Christian, I always hoped I would see my dead cat in Heaven.

Now I still appreciate the time I had with her.

But I am not greedy for more.

[Caya]

I kinda like the Rainbow Bridge concept.

All I know is that, if there is in fact an afterlife (I'm pretty agnostic on this), I want to end up where dogs go. They can call it whatever they want.

[besleybean]

I think total oblivion is the most appealing outcome for me.

[T.o.b.y]

22 hours ago, besleybean said:

I think total oblivion is the most appealing outcome for me.

Me too. Living forever does not sound appealing to me. I find the thought that eventually, it will all be over, quite comforting. And I say this as a very happy person who so far has been very lucky in life.

[besleybean]

Well I lost my husband last year, had a second cousin die way too young...other than that, I guess I've been reasonably fortunate.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

On 11/10/2018 at 2:37 PM, besleybean said:

But suffering is very real.

How could an all loving and all powerful god permit it to happen?

This is a sermon I happened upon yesterday that tries to answer that question: https://gracechapel.net/media-series/processing-our-suffering/ The pastor makes it clear that he's not going to sufficiently answer that question for everyone.  I found it an interesting video to watch at just under 1 hour in length.

On 11/16/2018 at 1:24 PM, Caya said:

I kinda like the Rainbow Bridge concept.

All I know is that, if there is in fact an afterlife (I'm pretty agnostic on this), I want to end up where dogs go. They can call it whatever they want.

 

On 11/16/2018 at 1:26 PM, besleybean said:

I think total oblivion is the most appealing outcome for me.

 

On 11/17/2018 at 11:37 AM, T.o.b.y said:

Me too. Living forever does not sound appealing to me. I find the thought that eventually, it will all be over, quite comforting. And I say this as a very happy person who so far has been very lucky in life.

There is a book (and video series) called Imagine Heaven by John Burke. I've seen most of the video series and have the book (haven't started it yet). Total oblivion I don't think is going to happen.  Personally, I like the idea of living on forever so long as it is not in Hell.  Heaven would be just fine by me.

[besleybean]

Some people choose to live their lives assuming Heaven.

I happily live my life assuming there isn't one.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I believe that there is a God and that there are people who believe that there are 1 or more gods which are different from God.  I believe that the Bible is an all or nothing not a pick and choose as in the Bible is either all true or none of it is.  We can't pick and choose what from the Bible we believe to be true.  I try to live out what I believe without shoving it down people's throats as the expression goes.  I know I am far from perfect. 

Some people would erroneously label me a homophobe based on my religious beliefs on homosexuality before even hearing me out even though I have no fear of homosexuals in any way, shape, or form. 

I believe science and religion compliment each other and support each other.  However, many scientists (no I don't have an exact number as it has been years since this was told to me by a former atheistic scientist) create their hypotheses automatically dismissing any notion of any sort of god existing let alone the one stated in the Bible before gathering the evidence when they test their hypotheses (which from what I recall of the scientific method is something that shouldn't happen as nothing is to be dismissed until all evidence has been gathered and so far I have not seen any scientific proof successfully denying the existence of God but have heard over the years of many scientists proving God, including the one I mentioned above and as I recall Stephen Hawking in possibly his doctoral dissertation).

I also don't believe the Bible on faith alone.  There are more than 18,000 manuscripts in existence for the Bible dating back to the New Testament writers and possibly as far back as the Old Testament (I have the research on that somewhere).  Of the 400,000 known errors in those manuscripts 320,000 are minor errors such as spelling differences that don't change the meaning.  Most, if not all, of us on here have seen multiple ways of spelling names such as Chris, Jenn, or Dianna.  I forget how the remaining errors were accounted for beyond someone trying to compare apples and oranges as the expression goes.

As for the verse that states to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39), when looked at in context (starting in verse 38 and going to the end of the chapter), Jesus is talking about being loving, generous, and merciful (see also Luke 6:27-36).

There is also an interesting book called The Grace Effect by Larry Alex Taunton that talks about how religion, specifically Christianity, helps a society not be cold, pitiless, or graceless.

 

I need to sleep but will contribute more later.

[besleybean]

I am not a Christian.

My society is as largely secular as it's allowed to be and it is not cold, pitiless or graceless.

[Caya]

55 minutes ago, SherlockedCAMPer said:

Some people would erroneously label me a homophobe based on my religious beliefs on homosexuality before even hearing me out even though I have no fear of homosexuals in any way, shape, or form.

[modhat] Just chiming in at this point to remind every participant in this so far happy and remarkably civil discussion:

[/modhat] Carry on and just ignore the agnostic by the sidelines otherwise.

[besleybean]

Well said.

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, SherlockedCAMPer said:

I try to live out what I believe without shoving it down people's throats as the expression goes. 

And I think that's the key point here ... we all have different beliefs, religious or not, and I believe (I could be wrong ) that most people try to live out their lives according to their beliefs. It's when those beliefs come into conflict that we have a problem.

I'll take abortion as an example. I don't like it. I believe it ends a life, and I'm also against taking life. But I'm not anti-abortion, because my belief that a woman has the right to choose is stronger than my belief that what I think should dictate what they do. Does that make sense?

I recognize the paradox inherent in this. I can't resolve it without sacrificing one of my beliefs, so I don't ... I just live with it. There's a lot of paradoxes in my life, and I've decided to simply accept most of them. Easier ... for me ... that way. But I get why it can bother other people.

[Artemis]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I'll take abortion as an example. I don't like it. I believe it ends a life, and I'm also against taking life. But I'm not anti-abortion, because my belief that a woman has the right to choose is stronger than my belief that what I think should dictate what they do. Does that make sense?

I recognize the paradox inherent in this. I can't resolve it without sacrificing one of my beliefs, so I don't ... I just live with it. There's a lot of paradoxes in my life, and I've decided to simply accept most of them. Easier ... for me ... that way. But I get why it can bother other people.

Makes perfect sense to me, that's my take on the issue as well.  I usually try to explain it as being morally against, but legally not; but many people seem to have trouble understanding that point of view.

 

[Artemis]

6 hours ago, SherlockedCAMPer said:

I need to sleep but will contribute more later.

Looking forward to hearing more. 

 

[Artemis]

One of the Bible's greatest curiosities for me is the story of the Tower of Babel.
 

Quote

Genesis 11:1-9, King James Version (KJV)

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

[Link]
 

Was this a literal tower?  If not, I can't imagine what it might be a description of...  And if so, what on earth could it do?!  Why was it so threatening, and what does that say about nature of God, and the capabilities of humanity?  The God of this story has always seemed to me a little out of sync with the fearless God of the rest of the Bible.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

[modhat] Just chiming in at this point to remind every participant in this so far happy and remarkably civil discussion:

[/modhat] Carry on and just ignore the agnostic by the sidelines otherwise.

No one on here has been negative to me in that way. But there are people off site who would be if they knew because my beliefs are contrary to what would be considered popular culture. I do have a certain amount of live and let live because of what I said earlier about not trying to shove my religious beliefs down anyone’s throat.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

One of the Bible's greatest curiosities for me is the story of the Tower of Babel.
 

Genesis 11:1-9, King James Version (KJV)
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

[Link]
 

Was this a literal tower?  If not, I can't imagine what it might be a description of...  And if so, what on earth could it do?!  Why was it so threatening, and what does that say about nature of God, and the capabilities of humanity?  The God of this story has always seemed to me a little out of sync with the fearless God of the rest of the Bible.
 


It is a literal tower they were going to build. 2 chapters earlier God told Noah and his sons that they were to fill the earth. Building the tower to keep people from scattering to fill the earth was going against God so He took just action to correct it.

[Artemis]

22 minutes ago, SherlockedCAMPer said:

It is a literal tower they were going to build. 2 chapters earlier God told Noah and his sons that they were to fill the earth. Building the tower to keep people from scattering to fill the earth was going against God so He took just action to correct it.

Ooooh.  But what I'm most curious about is what was meant by "now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do,"?  Surely a tall tower couldn't have made God go "Uh-oh, now they can do literally anything,"?

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I will try to answer your question Artemis and may not do the best at it.

God wanted an internal unity among people even while scattered over the earth. Because humans are far from perfect and to varying degrees full of pride (haughty & arrogant), that internal unity was lost. The people tried to have an external unity (one not established by God but through whatever wrongful acts [aka sin] had already been committed leading up to the plan to build the tower). God confounding (confusing) the languages was His way of helping to prevent further wrongdoing (sin) as He knew our nature gravitated towards wickedness & audacity leading to fear based enterprises.

[besleybean]

I have to say that of all my problems with religion, different languages does not even feature on the long list!

The Tower of Babel is a quaint little story, though obviously I don't accept the explanation.

I have to say, though, SherlockCAMPer...I don't even understand your explanation.

What does the last sentence above actually mean?

I have a proble with the concept of sin, anyway.

Unless we're talking murder, rape etc...not really sure what it means.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I am not a Christian.
My society is as largely secular as it's allowed to be and it is not cold, pitiless or graceless.

As much as the UK is secular it is not 100% anti-God. There is still a state church. Whereas the society mentioned in the book was based on there is no God and we will not teach otherwise; many of the already in existence churches will have to hide or close and there is no state church.