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Discussions, thoughts and ramblings on religion


T.o.b.y

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3 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I think I'm missing something. Surely the evolution/creationism debate doesn't go any further back than Darwin? Unless you are saying a couple hundred years is ancient history?

You're missing something.  Bev and I were also talking about religion vs. science in general, such as Galileo's problem with the Pope.  Plus I put "ancient history" in quotes, meaning relatively speaking.

2 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

I'm quite interested in reincarnation

Me too.  Can't say I *believe* in it, but I do find it plausible.

One interesting thing about reincarnation is that one can apparently believe in it without necessarily believing in a deity.

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Nice idea reincarnation.

For me it just holds the same issues as believing in any kind of afterlife.

It just strikes me as, well ok I want to be concessionary so I won't say arrogance of humans...

But just the lack of accepting that death is the end.

It is one of the most natural parts of life and I embrace it...but obviously like most of us, I would prefer to die old and not in pain!

Incidentally, humans do have  a lot be arrogant about.

But for me, cheating death isn't one of those things.

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12 hours ago, besleybean said:

Nice idea reincarnation.

For me it just holds the same issues as believing in any kind of afterlife.

It just strikes me as, well ok I want to be concessionary so I won't say arrogance of humans...

But just the lack of accepting that death is the end.

It is one of the most natural parts of life and I embrace it...but obviously like most of us, I would prefer to die old and not in pain!

Incidentally, humans do have  a lot be arrogant about.

But for me, cheating death isn't one of those things.

If you believe that physical death is the complete end of a person, then of course that's what you believe.  I wouldn't expect you to believe any different just because I disagree with you (and in fact I would consider you a bit odd if you did change your mind simply on my say-so).  I'm sure you have your reasons for believing what you do.

On the other hand, though, you might consider that people who disagree with you also have reasons for their beliefs.  In some cases I suppose you're right, it may be an unwillingness to accept the finality of death.  Or they may simply believe what they've been taught to believe.   But some people have more logical reasons for believing that the spirit lives on.  Their reasons are not generally anything that they would able to demonstrate to others, but that doesn't make them any less valid for those individuals.

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Can't speak for Carol, obviously, but some of the most rational people in my life have privately told me of situations they experienced which made them believe in some existence beyond death. Haven't experienced something like that myself (hence the whole agnostic bit) but I have no reason to doubt their sincerity and conviction in what they saw. I feel it would be terribly arrogant of me to shrug and dismiss their individual experiences as simple hallucinations. Also, either I'm gonna find out after death anyway or I won't, because there is nothing after death, in which case I won't be able to realize that either, so why worry, really. :smile:

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In this particular instance, I was merely questioning the use of the term 'logical'...it didn't seem a correct representation of the definition of that word.

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I simply meant using the rules of logic to assess one's personal experience.  In this sort of situation, I guess mostly it's the old Holmes dictum about ruling out other explanations for a phenomenon.

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On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 11:34 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:
On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:17 PM, Arcadia said:

I think I'm missing something. Surely the evolution/creationism debate doesn't go any further back than Darwin? Unless you are saying a couple hundred years is ancient history?

You're missing something.  Bev and I were also talking about religion vs. science in general, such as Galileo's problem with the Pope.  Plus I put "ancient history" in quotes, meaning relatively speaking.

You're right, I missed that. I even went back and reread it, and I'm still missing it! :P But I get your point.

I don't find reincarnation particularly plausible, but I do like the concept of karma, in the sense of "what goes around, comes around." That is, I like the idea that people who do bad things will eventually suffer for it, and people who do good things will … not. No religion required. :smile: 

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Still, for karma to exist, there must be *something* there that a) decides what is good/bad/ugly and b) arranges for the eventual payback, no? I like that concept too, for fairness reasons and such, but I have a hard time separating it from some kind of higher power (whether that's some divinity or simply fate).

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I don't so much like the concept of karma...

I also think it's just people having to face up to the consequences of their actions.

Sometimes folk make bad choices...

On other occasions, people are just plain unlucky and certainly don't deserve what life just happens to throw at them.

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Yes, that's my problem with the idea of karma as well, that I see plenty of people who suffer despite never having done anything to deserve it (and there is some suffering that nobody deserves, imo, no matter their actions). I think it would be awful if I had to assume, because of a belief that I have, that they must have done something wrong whereas they're just really unlucky.

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Yes as a great man once said(and I apologise, this is my very poor paraphrasing):

The Universe screams aloud that it does not care.

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15 hours ago, Caya said:

... for karma to exist, there must be *something* there that a) decides what is good/bad/ugly and b) arranges for the eventual payback....

It could work like that.  But maybe it's a natural law, like gravity except that it's spiritual instead of physical.  If there is such a thing.

My favorite theory is that this physical existence is like a classroom, where we come in order to learn things that present more of a challenge here, such as patience.  If we pass the course, we can go on to new challenges, and if not, we presumably repeat the course.

One reason that I find it plausible is this:  I've noticed that if I fail to learn a lesson that I could have learned from a certain experience, I'm generally presented with another opportunity -- except that this time the universe doesn't just tap me on the shoulder, it hits me over the head with a stick.

No, I have no idea who is running the curriculum, but that's OK.  I figure I'll find out soon enough.

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Can't be a natural law like gravity, because tht exist all the time and is the same in every situation. An experiement can be repeated endlessly to get the same result.

But the point about the theory of karma is that it can demonstrably shown not to work!

Good people have s--t thrown at them and absolute b-----s do often get off scot free.

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Yeah, that's why I said I like the concept … I'd like to know that jerks will get their comeuppance. But I don't believe it. And anyway, now that I think about it, I'd rather see them get their comeuppance in this lifetime, so I can enjoy watching them fall. :P Instant karma! Bring it on!

16 hours ago, besleybean said:

Yes as a great man once said(and I apologise, this is my very poor paraphrasing):

The Universe screams aloud that it does not care.

Which great man was that? It sounds a bit like Douglas Adams.....

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Well I know it from Christopher Hitchens(who said it much better than I did), but he could well have been quoting Adams...I would imagine he was a fan.

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On 11/24/2018 at 10:15 PM, besleybean said:

I don't so much like the concept of karma...

I also think it's just people having to face up to the consequences of their actions.

Sometimes folk make bad choices...

On other occasions, people are just plain unlucky and certainly don't deserve what life just happens to throw at them.

 

18 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Yeah, that's why I said I like the concept … I'd like to know that jerks will get their comeuppance. But I don't believe it. And anyway, now that I think about it, I'd rather see them get their comeuppance in this lifetime, so I can enjoy watching them fall. :P Instant karma! Bring it on!

 

On 11/25/2018 at 4:31 AM, T.o.b.y said:

Yes, that's my problem with the idea of karma as well, that I see plenty of people who suffer despite never having done anything to deserve it (and there is some suffering that nobody deserves, imo, no matter their actions). I think it would be awful if I had to assume, because of a belief that I have, that they must have done something wrong whereas they're just really unlucky.

 

That's why karma is closely related to reincarnation, according to people who believe that (at least the ones that I know).

So they believe people who are suffering in this life is paying for the bad deeds they did in previous lives. It sounds suck but it's fairness in the long term. The pay back is not necessary happening in this lifetime. Some of them believe in inter species reincarnation too, so they could be reborn as animal, and animals could become human.

Well, of course, scientifically, except some testimonials, nobody knows how plausible all those, but I like it because it gives some kind of 'hope for retribution' even for people who has nothing to hold on in this life. I heard them said things like, "he will be reborn with better live for the good deeds he did."   or   "don't worry, he won't get away with it, he will be punished for what he had done to you", and that provides some kind of glimmer, regardless how small, to the suffering person who is incapable to do anything, tortured and heart broken from the treatment of their fellow human.  I see that it helps in vengeance, letting go and forgiveness, a lot. And it helps to maintain good-hearted people to continue doing good things eventhough they don't benefit/being punished/being at the wrong end of it, instead of being jaded and change sides. I think scientific or not, that is all that matters. It keeps kindness alive and make people believe that sowing it wouldn't go into waste. 

Same thing that I like the verse I learned from Christianity, you should treat others the way you would like to be treated, imo, it's more or less teaching the same thing. 

So that's what I do. I collecting things I want to believe in part and pieces from different religions, instead of focusing entirely to believe in one thing. I believe we should use the brain and common sense to decide on everything, and even when one is committed to certain religion, they should always keep healthy dose of skepticism because they are always people with agenda and we have seen way, way too many religious leaders using religion to misdirect those who are lost instead of genuinely helping them.

Well, these opportunists will be cockroaches in their next life I suppose.

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1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Same thing that I like the verse I learned from Christianity, you should treat others the way you would like to be treated, imo, it's more or less teaching the same thing.

Yes, that's one of my favorites too.

1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

So that's what I do. I collecting things I want to believe in part and pieces from different religions, instead of focusing entirely to believe in one thing. I believe we should use the brain and common sense to decide on everything, and even when one is committed to certain religion, they should always keep healthy dose of skepticism because they are always people with agenda and we have seen way, way too many religious leaders using religion to misdirect those who are lost instead of genuinely helping them.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

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9 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

So they believe people who are suffering in this life is paying for the bad deeds they did in previous lives. It sounds suck but it's fairness in the long term.

If that were true, then I must have done something horrible in a past life, because the universe continually likes to wale on me.  I sure hope my future life enjoys reaping the benefits of my patience and compassion in this one, ‘cause I won’t know anything about it.  :P  I don’t see much fairness or wisdom in that, personally.  Perpetually punishing someone, especially for things that are virtually out of their control, is more likely to lead them back down a dark path than it is to foster loving kindness.  That’s actually lessening their chances of becoming a better person.

Anyway, I don’t believe in karma, myself, and I haven’t seen it evident in my experience.  Sometimes bad people get what they deserve, and sometimes they don’t.  Sometimes good people get what they deserve, and sometimes they don’t.  And even if I believed in past lives, it wouldn’t make me feel better to believe that someone who did me wrong got away with it in this life, but would be punished for it in a future life where they are, in my view, essentially innocent and should be starting over with a clean slate.  Not to mention, completely unaware of what “they” did to me.  It seems to me that karma is more for people who are uncomfortable with the idea that not everything is under control.

Justice appears mostly hit-or-miss, from my view.

 

Edit: Hope I made sense there.  I’m very ill right now and my thoughts are about as lucid as... something not lucid.  Lol.

 

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Thanks all.  No improvement yet, but it always takes me at least a week to start feeling better from an illness, so I just have to be patient.

 

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  • Caya changed the title to Discussions, thoughts and ramblings on religion

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