Shoot the Wall (A.K.A. The Rant Thread)

[Artemis]

1 hour ago, T.o.b.y said:

I don't know if a salesperson is obligated to sell you anything, btw.

I don't know whether they are or aren't by law, currently.  I would think not.  But there aren't too many reasons other than discrimination that they wouldn't want to take your money if they're happy taking someone else's for the same thing, and we have laws protecting against discrimination in other areas, like hiring.  A shop here or there refusing someone doesn't seem like a big deal, but it'd become a significant problem if it turned into a "No Irish" type of thing.  That's where it gets fuzzy... how many places are allowed to reject a demographic of people until it becomes wrong enough to force a change?  If you let 4 businesses do it, do you let 100 businesses do it?  If you let 100 businesses do it, do you let 1,000 businesses do it?  And so on...  Something that seems okay on a small scale could be disastrous on a large scale, so the question becomes where to stop it, and how to do so fairly.  What you make legal or illegal for one person sets the precedent for everyone else, so you have to be very careful.

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I mean, it's their merchandise and they can do what they like with it, can't they?

That's the question...

 

[Artemis]

P.S.  I would have combined some of these responses into one post, but it's hard to edit a post to add quotes on the new forum, lol.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't offhand know of any way to add quotes to something you've already posted (wish I did!), but you can use multi-quote (the "+" button) to quote one or more posts at the same time, and/or you can do this:

First, position the cursor within the reply box wherever you want the quote to end up.  Then scroll back to the post you want to quote.  Highlight the specific part you want to quote, and you should (but alas may not) get a teeny little pop-up button that says "Quote selection."  Click it.  (This works reliably for me on my cellphone, but only sometimes on my laptop.)  If you want to add more quotes, you can do so at any time *before* you click Submit Reply.

[Arcadia]

12 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I didn't mean to ask what the current laws are, but rather what you personally think the laws should ideally be.  But I think you answered that as well.

I think several different paradigms are equally valid -- you just need to pick one and stick with it consistently.

I even doubt you can be consistent without, even inadvertently, winding up discriminating against someone. Yet if you make decisions on a case by case basis, it's a pretty sure bet someone will end up crying discrimination. Everyone's so quick to get their noses out of joint these days.... me included.  

10 hours ago, Artemis said:

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I mean, it's their merchandise and they can do what they like with it, can't they?

That's the question...

Yeah, I don't know. I would feel perfectly justified in refusing to create a work (i.e., do a service) for … well, anyone. But if someone loathsome wanted to buy something I'd already created and had on display with intent to sell … I don't know. It's hard for me to think of a justification for not doing business with that person. Hmmm. Hope it never comes up. 

Although it occurs to me that I would probably refuse entrance to my studio … but my studio's in my home, so that's not quite a fair comparison. If I owned a gallery and a Nazi in full regalia wanted to come in? … I don't know. Interesting conundrum. Yet another reason I've never wanted to own a shop.

I just remembered … we had an instance recently where a restaurant refused to serve one of Trump's staff … and it was legal (if rather rude, imo.) But again, that's a service, not goods. So … yeah. Still not sure.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

... if someone loathsome wanted to buy something I'd already created and had on display with intent to sell … I don't know. It's hard for me to think of a justification for not doing business with that person.

How about if you knew/suspected that they planned to use it for loathsome purposes?

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

On 9/21/2018 at 1:38 AM, Pseudonym said:

This mystifies me to. It's none of their f***ing business!

And I keep getting cross posted so I'll post this first then read the rest  This was in answer to the VBS comment:

I don't think they wanted the cake made by them, it's more about the point of being turned away because of what they are. 

I don't know about the future, it seems to be at a crossroads. On the one hand younger people are more tolerant and used to people who are different from themselves, but on the other hand right wing groups seem to be on the rise all over the world and are often populated with (predominately) young angry white men. I grew up with very tolerant parents and friends, I'd be aghast if one of my friends said something homophobic and racist, but perhaps if I'd been surrounded by people who were like that maybe I'd be indoctrinated into that way of thinking...? I like to think I'd be aware enough to not fall into that trap, but who knows? But yes, I'm not an angel, I have some less than PC thoughts about some sections of society though I do my best to curtail them. 

 

On 9/21/2018 at 1:39 AM, besleybean said:

I have no problem with being PC...we just need to remember to uphold basic human rights, but at the same time we both have the right to opinions and  darn well the right to express them!

Unless we are legislators, of course...

That's what came out in one of the articles I read about the case.  As for the what goes on behind closed doors, religious people (particularly those who think there is only 1 way to heaven and that there is definitely a hell), tend to follow the Bible (or similar monotheistic religious text) as an all or nothing, not a pick and choose as to what is true (correct, fact) and what isn't.  Which means they will also believe that the homosexual lifestyle will mean an eternity in hell (a place you really don't want to go ever) unless there is a change in lifestyle choices (with some having the caveat that the good works a person did didn't outweigh the bad works [aka sin]). 

And as far as being PC is concerned, I never really cared one way or another (I still tend to use mailman over postal carrier or other gender neutral term).  There are people who would consider me a homophobe (and intolerant) because I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle and wouldn't hear me out on my stance (jumping to conclusions and showing themselves to be intolerant in that moment and I don't have any fear of that lifestyle). (I don't believe homosexual attraction is wrong, it's what a person does with that attraction where the right or wrong (sin) can happen).  Every human is prone to a variety of thoughts that would be considered wrong by both liberal and conservative people if dwelt on that we push aside almost immediately because we generally don't want those types of thoughts invading our minds. I try to follow the Bible (I fail miserably often), and if I hold the position that the Bible is all true/correct/fact (which I do), then dwelling/acting on something that the Bible states is sin would mean that I have sinned and would not be getting to heaven unless I changed my actions and didn't return to whatever that sin was.

As far as elected officials go, whenever they explain their reasoning for being for/against some legislation, it had best sound like s/he were not saying anything that sounded like personal opinion even if his/her view aligned with the majority of the constituents that elected the person because there will be backlash regardless of the fact that there would have been backlash no matter which way the person voted.  You can't please everyone so don't try to.

23 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I certainly agree regarding custom work of any kind.  But I think it's also unfair to ask someone to put anything of themselves into something they disagree with -- e.g., if a caterer is asked to *serve* food (even if it's their standard fare) at an event they find repugnant -- whether it's a fundamentalist caterer being hired for a gay wedding or a black caterer being hired for a KKK rally.  When in doubt, just ask yourself, "How would I feel if I were in an analogous situation?"

I can't argue with your logic.

I think the same way about the free will / foreordination debate -- best to live as though you have free will, because if it turns out you don't, it won't matter.

 

When I was in uni, I had a professor mention freewill and predestination (foreordination) and how both exist, but God already knows what you're going to choose.  He also mentioned that it was something that is very hard to comprehend (finite mind and an infinite God).  It's been nearly 20 years and I still don't understand how the 2 mesh, I just know that they do.

[Arcadia]

6 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

How about if you knew/suspected that they planned to use it for loathsome purposes?

Well, it's hard for me to imagine how you'd use one of my paintings loathsomely but, yeah, I get your point. I hope that would give me pause. Not just if someone was buying something of mine, but if I knew of anyone doing anything for loathsome purposes. Unless I was afraid for my own safety; I'm not very physically brave, I suspect. Although in that case I think I'd be inclined to call the police. Hope so.

3 hours ago, SherlockedCAMPer said:

religious people (particularly those who think there is only 1 way to heaven and that there is definitely a hell), tend to follow the Bible (or similar monotheistic religious text) as an all or nothing, not a pick and choose as to what is true (correct, fact) and what isn't.

Oh, I have to disagree. I think it depends on what sect you belong to; some of them very definitely pick and choose which passages they will follow, and which they will ignore. (Divorce laws, for example; I'm not sure even Catholics pay much attention to them any more.) And some interpret the same passages very differently; some sects teach the Bible as largely metaphorical; others teach it as strictly literal, some fall somewhere in between. Same is true for the Koran (and, I suspect, any other text in the world, religious or not. Heck, even a small group of fans can't agree on which interpretation of their favorite TV show is the "right" one! )

My strong suspicion is that there are as many different ways to follow your faith (or lack thereof) as there are people in the world. We are all in many ways the same, but we are also spectacularly diverse. Thank God. 😉 

 

[Pseudonym]

And it's opinions like that that make me so down on religion. I wish I had the energy to get into a debate, but I'm too busy and I'm aware enough to know that there is no point. 

[Artemis]

On 9/21/2018 at 9:05 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:

When in doubt, just ask yourself, "How would I feel if I were in an analogous situation?"

I feel like that's where it gets tricky, though.  I'm a fan of using the Golden Rule to problem-solve, but to do that you have to consider the perspective of both sides in an analogous situation, the shop owner and the customer.  I'm not a Nazi, so I have to look at it from the perspective of someone being rejected for beliefs I do hold, lifestyle choices, or something that's a part of who I am.  I also wouldn't have a problem making a cake for a gay wedding, so I have to look at it from the perspective of serving someone I would feel morally repulsed by, for example the Nazi thing.  As a customer, I would want the right to be served, but I wouldn't necessarily feel I had the right to make a business serve me if they didn't want to.  As a shop owner, I would want the right to have complete control over who I sell to, but I wouldn't necessarily feel I had the right to turn someone away for their beliefs.  Hard to reconcile both ends of that.

And of course, it goes without saying, that it all depends on the circumstances.  There's really no one answer.

Individual reactions to these situations will be somewhat unique, because experiences and personalities vary.  In addition to terribly bad luck, I'm rather used to being on the receiving end of rejection, hate, and unfair treatment for any number of reasons (however baseless or irrational they seem to me), when there was rarely anything I could do about it.  So I've learned to let things go, because it's been my life, and my expectations are generally low.  Not everyone has as much patience, or lets things roll of their back as much as I do (some say too much), and people who are used to getting their way most of the time might react more strongly when they don't.  My point in saying that is that people have different levels of tolerance.  So establishing a boundary that says "This is where the threshold of tolerance should be," and applying it fairly to all people in all situations, is a complex problem.

 

[besleybean]

Yep, basic human rights...and I personally think some like to make it more difficult than it actually is!

[Carol the Dabbler]

12 hours ago, Artemis said:

Hard to reconcile both ends of that.

And of course, it goes without saying, that it all depends on the circumstances.  There's really no one answer.

Individual reactions to these situations will be somewhat unique....

 

Thus the difficulty (or impossibility) of drafting even-handed laws or regulations.

In my opinion, some things are best left up to good manners and/or wise business practice.

[Artemis]

Alas, if only manners were always good, and business practices were always wise, and everyone could agree on what both of those mean...

Such is life.

 

[besleybean]

I tend to feel we cannot discriminate on the grounds of race, geneder, sexuality etc...but for me it's more a case of STATE laws upholding equality for basic services.

What private cubs or businesses do, I actually think is up to them.

Customer want is not the same as a basic human right.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I'm not sure how relevant it is.

We have limited breakfast option to go after our regular weekend walk because there are limited place that opens early enough/reasonable price/dog friendly. So eventually we would go back to those limited options.

One of the restaurant was specially friendly to us. The staffs were kind and liked to ask about my dog (because they can't really play with him/that little fur is an introvert too who prefers to ignore human) and we were welcomed well every time. They also remember our regular table and orders.

Then one day, as I walked in as usual, one of the staffs (that I had never met before) told me that I couldn't go in because I brought a dog. This establishment is located at beach front, beach known as destination for regular people and dog lovers, they have outdoor premise that is perfectly fine to cater small dog that doesn't do a single disruption because he is mostly sleeping under the table. And I remember there were other patrons with dogs. Well, since I never had problem previously, I thought it was the problem with this particular waitress who didn't recognize us, and because I didn't see other familiar faces, I just walked out. Like said previously, I don't want to be in a place that doesn't want me. 

The other time, however, my parents were joining us and they remembered and liked this restaurant. So despite my hesitation, my mom wanted to confirm that we are unwanted. And it is true, the restaurant doesn't accept pet now, we also noticed that we didn't see the staffs we know. It probably had changes in management, policy or whatever. Now my mom makes an effort to see how they are doing every single time we pass by and she is actually delighted to see how its business has been declining (we also see other regular pet owners switch place).

Like mentioned before, regarding adult-only restaurant. (adult only restaurant would be great! But I can imagine how disappointing it would be for parents, I get it to certain degree as pet parents because I want to bring him everywhere) I get it when restaurant/hotel doesn't accept kids/pets as I have seen destruction done by other pets too and of course, children. Pet parents could also be as bad or even worse than human parents, by not educating their pet to behave in public places or take responsibilities for their behaviors. So yah, as said, because of some brats, the whole population belongs to some category could get the impact. BUT, I would differentiate children and pet behavior with association that come with race or sexual orientation. I think it's different thing. The line is probably how they justify the background reason.

[Artemis]

38 minutes ago, besleybean said:

I tend to feel we cannot discriminate on the grounds of race, geneder, sexuality etc...but for me it's more a case of STATE laws upholding equality for basic services.

What private cubs or businesses do, I actually think is up to them.

Customer want is not the same as a basic human right.

 

27 minutes ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

BUT, I would differentiate children and pet behavior with association that come with race or sexual orientation. I think it's different thing.

Yah I agree.

 

[besleybean]

I don't think anybody has a human right to take their children or their pets to any private facility, but council run provision should accommodate all.

[Arcadia]

If only everyone were as reasonable as all of us, eh? 😉 

[T.o.b.y]

On 9/23/2018 at 9:04 AM, Arcadia said:

Well, it's hard for me to imagine how you'd use one of my paintings loathsomely but, yeah, I get your point. I hope that would give me pause. Not just if someone was buying something of mine, but if I knew of anyone doing anything for loathsome purposes. Unless I was afraid for my own safety; I'm not very physically brave, I suspect. Although in that case I think I'd be inclined to call the police. Hope so.

Oh, I have to disagree. I think it depends on what sect you belong to; some of them very definitely pick and choose which passages they will follow, and which they will ignore. (Divorce laws, for example; I'm not sure even Catholics pay much attention to them any more.) And some interpret the same passages very differently; some sects teach the Bible as largely metaphorical; others teach it as strictly literal, some fall somewhere in between. Same is true for the Koran (and, I suspect, any other text in the world, religious or not. Heck, even a small group of fans can't agree on which interpretation of their favorite TV show is the "right" one! )

My strong suspicion is that there are as many different ways to follow your faith (or lack thereof) as there are people in the world.  😉

 

Yes, that's my observation as well. As an outsider looking in at religion, it seems to me like a thousand voices are calling "this way to God!", but they are all coming from a different direction. If I have any belief at all, it is that they are all right in some way that only God, who- or whatever that is, understands. 

[besleybean]

I am consistant too. I think thy are all wrong! 😬

[Pseudonym]

We should have a religion thread, to free this one up and so I can avoid it like the plague. 

[Artemis]

Like I do with the political one.   

 

[Pseudonym]

Yea, I avoid that one too. 

[Arcadia]

Chickens.

[Carol the Dabbler]

10 hours ago, Pseudonym said:

We should have a religion thread, to free this one up and so I can avoid it like the plague. 

 

3 hours ago, Artemis said:

Like I do with the political one.   

 

 

Yeah, why do you think I started that one? 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

I want to do chicken dance to prove that I have empathy, but I'm pretty bad at dancing, it would look as if I make fun of you guys not wanting to go into those threads.  

I hate discussing politic and religion too, but I actually feel alright here. Everyone seems respectful enough, so it feels like just another discussion, and sometimes, sometimes, I am really curious and this seems like a good place to ask when I do.

 

So, with those out of the way for now, who should we complain about in rant thread??

Loud people?? There are couple of those here and I have serious headache. 

Stupid HR? I'm getting more and more convinced that HR always tries their best to work against employee's welfare.

People without backbone who lean against you in subway? Goddammit. DAMN your backbone!! Grow some!

I have a FILE of other things we can rant about.