Shoot the Wall (A.K.A. The Rant Thread)

[Carol the Dabbler]

Why is it that so many people think it's OK to make fun of one particular religious song?  I'm taking about Kumbaya, an African-American folk hymn.  I suppose since it's partly sung in dialect ("kum ba ya" means "come by here," an appeal to God), some people may think it's just nonsense syllables, but you'd think they'd make some effort to find out, especially before they mock the song in movies and TV shows.  It's not like the song's meaning is any big secret.

I've been hearing these disrespectful comments for some years now, and just heard another one tonight (in a sitcom).  I don't belong to any organized religion myself, but I sure wouldn't ridicule anybody's religious songs, especially in public, and especially in the media.  Don't these people have any manners?

Added:  This NPR article dates the disrespect to circa 1990, which jibes with my own observations.

[Arcadia]

I didn't realize this was a thing, but after reading that article, I recognize the tone of mockery. I don't think they're making fun of the song, though, they're making fun of the people who sing it, aren't they? Making fun of idealism. Revealing their own cynicism in the process. Cynicism is big, now, and I admit it's easy for me to understand why.

[T.o.b.y]

On 11/14/2019 at 2:14 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

Why is it that so many people think it's OK to make fun of one particular religious song?  I'm taking about Kumbaya, an African-American folk hymn.  I suppose since it's partly sung in dialect ("kum ba ya" means "come by here," an appeal to God), some people may think it's just nonsense syllables, but you'd think they'd make some effort to find out, especially before they mock the song in movies and TV shows.  It's not like the song's meaning is any big secret.

I've been hearing these disrespectful comments for some years now, and just heard another one tonight (in a sitcom).  I don't belong to any organized religion myself, but I sure wouldn't ridicule anybody's religious songs, especially in public, and especially in the media.  Don't these people have any manners?

Added:  This NPR article dates the disrespect to circa 1990, which jibes with my own observations.

I never understood that either! 

I like the song and I am not religious. It's a great lullaby Btw. 

[T.o.b.y]

On 10/25/2019 at 12:23 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

More like the past few centuries, I think.  A proper Victorian lady would have fainted at the mere thought.  And even when I was a kid, nobody breastfed their babies in public, period.  I thought it was pretty progressive the first time I saw someone do it under a little blanket.

I'm not sure what the legal situation is here, though.

I dunno. There are images of the virgin Mary breastfeeding baby Jesus (and even one where she's letting one of the saints drink from her breast - as an old man, Btw, not a baby). And I don't mean modern satirical / provocative art. 

In Victorian times, I think the nobility had wet nurses but middle and lower class women breastfed themselves and it can't have been that taboo, because there are several pretty frank mentions of the activity in my Dickens novels - and these are books where even the word "trousers" had to be censored because the times were so prude. 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

12 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I don't think they're making fun of the song, though, they're making fun of the people who sing it, aren't they?

That's a pretty thin line, in my opinion.  I mean, if singing a certain song is proof / evidence that one is -- what? silly? -- then what does that supposedly imply about the song?

12 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Making fun of idealism. Revealing their own cynicism in the process. Cynicism is big, now....

I might agree, except that Kumbaya isn't an idealistic song, exactly.  When I was at church camp, back in my teens, the song was considered a prayer invoking God's presence, or at least that was my impression.

Of course it's possible that some people (some who sing the song and/or some who hear them) don't know that, and think it's just a feel-good sing-along song with funny words in it.  That does seem to jibe with the way it's been used in pop culture (e.g., at the end of "Spinal Tap," where the lyrics were changed to "Kumbaya my friend").  The negative comments quoted in that NPR article are mostly about people supposedly thinking they can solve the world's problems by "joining hands and singing Kumbaya."  That sounds to me like an accusation of naivety rather than idealism.

In any case, it still bugs me that they're picking on a hymn that means a lot to some people.  Am I naive to think that they wouldn't do that to a hymn that was sung in standard English?

[Arcadia]

8 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

I dunno. There are images of the virgin Mary breastfeeding baby Jesus (and even one where she's letting one of the saints drink from her breast - as an old man, Btw, not a baby). And I don't mean modern satirical / provocative art.

Not because I actually disagree, but just to be argumentative ... but those who painted the Virgin Mary cannot possibly have known whether she exposed her breasts in public, not having been alive themselves at the time. I think that's more of an artistic convention than an attempt at veracity.

Also I think there's less anxiety about viewing a painting of a nude than there is about viewing a real nude, if you see what I mean.

Although … too lazy to look it up, but I'm willing to bet there's been more than one attempt (successful?) to ban nude paintings from public view, too.

9 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

In Victorian times, I think the nobility had wet nurses but middle and lower class women breastfed themselves and it can't have been that taboo, because there are several pretty frank mentions of the activity in my Dickens novels - and these are books where even the word "trousers" had to be censored because the times were so prude.

I think the key word in Carol's comment, though, is "proper" Victorian ladies … meaning, gentry. Pretty sure poor, untitled women weren't considered as "proper" at all. (Or even as human, possibly.) (Still aren't, come to think of it. Look how we treat immigrants these days.) 

Either way, I don't think the issue is whether women should breastfeed, but whether it's okay for them to do it in the public eye. It's been a long time since I read any Dickens, but it's my impression his women largely stayed indoors … ? 

Having said all that, I utterly defend a woman's right to breastfeed in public. As long as I don't have to see anything.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

6 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

... too lazy to look it up, but I'm willing to bet there's been more than one attempt (successful?) to ban nude paintings from public view....

You may be thinking of the Cromwell era, when the "idolatrous" murals in churches were painted over (literally "whitewashed"), though I think that was pretty much all of them, not just the ones that showed nudity.  Cromwell's soldiers were also fond of using "idolatrous" religious statues for target practice (check the facade of Salisbury Cathedral).

15 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I think the key word in Carol's comment, though, is "proper" Victorian ladies … meaning, gentry.

Oh, for sure!  The peasant ladies were far too busy working to have time for fainting.

[Arcadia]

2 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

That's a pretty thin line, in my opinion.  I mean, if singing a certain song is proof / evidence that one is -- what? silly? -- then what does that imply about the song.

Maybe. But it seems to me it's more the act of getting together and singing that's being mocked, not the song itself. It could be another song … "Get Together" by the Youngbloods, for example, which I remember was used at protests back in the day … and people still mocked the protesters. "Kumbaya" is a more universally known song, though … if you reference it, more people are likely to know the kind of thing you're mocking. Or so it seems to me.

8 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

12 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Making fun of idealism. Revealing their own cynicism in the process. Cynicism is big, now....

I might agree, except that Kumbaya isn't an idealistic song, exactly.  When I was at church camp, back in my teens, the song was considered a prayer invoking God's presence, or at least that was my impression.

...…...The negative comments quoted in that NPR article were mostly about people supposedly thinking they could solve the world's problems by "joining hands and singing Kumbaya."  That sounds to me like an accusation of naivety rather than idealism.

Maybe naivety is a better word for what I mean. Although it's my perception that those-who-mock equate the two … to be idealistic is to be naïve. (Which I disagree with, to some extent, but that's another matter.) 

Quote

Of course it's possible that some people (some who sing the song and/or some who hear them) don't know that, and think it's just a feel-good sing-along song with funny words in it.  That does seem to jibe with the way it's been used in pop culture (e.g., at the end of "Spinal Tap," where the lyrics were changed to "Kumbaya my friend"). 

I think that's very possible. I don't have a clue what the song is "about," I just know groups of people who gather for a common cause tend to sing it. Well, the chorus. Seems like there's ever only 1-2 people who sing (or know) the bits in between.

Quote

In any case, it still bugs me that they're picking on a hymn that means a lot to some people.  Am I naive to think that they wouldn't do that to a hymn that was sung in standard English?

No, you're cynical to think that.  

[Arcadia]

8 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

You may be thinking of the Cromwell era, when the "idolatrous" murals in churches were painted over (literally "whitewashed"), though I think that was pretty much all of them, not just the ones that showed nudity.  Cromwell's soldiers were also fond of using "idolatrous" religious statues for target practice (check the facade of Salisbury Cathedral).

We had an incident in Virginia a few years ago when the attorney general took offense at the state seal -- which depicts the goddess Virtus with one breast bared. He had a version made which covered her up. As I recall, he was pretty roundly mocked himself, which is possibly the biggest difference between then and now.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

5 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I don't have a clue what the song is "about," I just know groups of people who gather for a common cause tend to sing it. Well, the chorus. Seems like there's ever only 1-2 people who sing (or know) the bits in between.

Ah.  Well that could explain a lot.  So it's kinda lost its religious meaning -- or pretty much any meaning?  That's a shame, but it could explain the current contempt for it (or, as you say, for those who sing it).

[Arcadia]

Aw, I wouldn't worry … I bet it still has plenty of meaning for those who believe in its message. And I like hearing it … it's pretty, and easy to sing along with. I don't think you really have to know the "meaning" of a song to appreciate it.

And I'm willing to bet that if the "mockers" heard it being sung solo on a street corner, they wouldn't think anything about it one way or another. They might even leave a tip if the busker's any good. It's the people who think they can change the world that they're contemptuous of, even if they aren't singing. The song's just a convenient symbol to describe those people, imo.

[Carol the Dabbler]

33 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

The song's just a convenient symbol to describe those people, imo.

It's just an innocent bystander, huh?

35 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

It's the people who think they can change the world that they're contemptuous of....

OK, you think the cynics are basically agreeing with Tom Lehrer in "Folk Song Army"?  (Which was written and recorded long before the 90's.)  If so I certainly won't dispute their point -- but I do deplore their choice of target song.

.

[Arcadia]

11 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

OK, you think the cynics are basically agreeing with Tom Lehrer in "Folk Song Army"?  (Which was written and recorded long before the 90's.)  If so I certainly won't dispute their point -- but I do deplore their choice of target song.

Basically, yeah. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

On 10/15/2019 at 11:08 PM, Artemis said:

I saw Christmas lights on someone’s house tonight.  

While sitting in the doctor's waiting room on Tuesday (the 26th), I overheard a fellow patient talking on her cell phone, assuring the person on the other end that it would be perfectly OK for the other person to put up their Christmas decorations before Thanksgiving, because most years Thanksgiving would be over by then.  I wouldn't adopt that principle myself (because it's no problem for me to wait), but it does make a certain amount of sense, and it sounded like the other person really wanted to go ahead and put up the decorations but was feeling guilty (!) about it, in which case I think the gal in the waiting room made a whole lot of sense.  I mean, decorations are supposed to be fun, right?  So I don't see the sense in beating yourself up over them.

Note for people who don't live in the US:  Thanksgiving Day is an official national holiday that takes place on the fourth Thursday in November (i..e., somewhere between the 22nd and the 28th).  Because it takes place on a Thursday (and because a lot of people spend the holiday with their extended families, which may require a good bit of travel time), most companies give everyone the Friday off as well.  So it has become something of a tradition for people to put up their Christmas decorations on that Friday and/or weekend.  Most years, in most parts of the country, the weather isn't truly wintery by then, so it's as good a time as any.  However, some people like to put up their holiday decorations somewhat earlier, whenever there's a stretch of warm, dry weather in the autumn.  Plus some people apparently just want to be able to enjoy their decorations for a good long while.  (I must say, though, that two weeks before Halloween does sound like jumping the gun!)

[Artemis]

5 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

(I must say, though, that two weeks before Halloween does sound like jumping the gun!)

Yeah, for sure.  Almost everyone around here sets up their Christmas lights on or before Thanksgiving, because it gets cold early in MN.  I think pretty much any time in November is acceptable.  Mid-October is much too early though, even for MN.  What's next, August?  "Christmas is over, better start preparing for my Easter brunch!" 

I think what actually annoys me about it is the impatience.  Holidays are supposed to be special times, and celebrating too soon diminishes that; especially when it involves virtually skipping over other holidays.  People are starting to become desensitized, in a way.  Christmas loses meaning when it's always Christmas.  Christmastime used to last for about a month altogether, and now it's stretching out to almost 4.  By the time Christmas actually gets here, people are grumpy because they're so sick of hearing about it and ready for it to be over.  What is everyone's hurry?  Can we all just slow down and enjoy the present for what it is?  For goodness' sake, go take a walk and note the colors of the leaves, listen to the birds around you, feel the crispness of the air in your lungs, watch the sunset and observe the way the light streams through the trees.  Just let it be fall, while it's fall.  It seems like people aren't cultivating the ability to notice and appreciate the beauty that's around them, right now.  They're always looking ahead, and discontent.

Not that I'm passionate about the subject, lol.  It is just lights after all.  If people want Christmas lights in October, or July for all I care, that's their prerogative.  Live and let live.  I just think it's a symptom of a larger problem, and also a little ridiculous.  Or, it could simply be someone who really, really, really loves Christmas.  Which is great for them, I hope they enjoy it.  But whatever the reason, I don't want it to perpetuate the pressure that people are feeling lately to frantically rush through life.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

29 minutes ago, Artemis said:

By the time Christmas actually gets here, people are grumpy because they're so sick of hearing about it and ready for it to be over.

That could explain why nobody plays winter songs after Christmas, even though January is far more wintery than December.  But I don't think that's it, because those songs have always disappeared on December 26th, even back when people celebrated Christmas for a few weeks at most.  Somehow they've become identified as Christmas songs even though they make no mention of the holiday or anything directly associated with it.  I'm thinking of, for example, Winter Wonderland, Frosty the Snowman, and Jingle Bells.

[Arcadia]

I actually have one "Christmas" song … What Child Is This … which I play year round. But of course, it's the acoustic/traditional version, aka "Greensleeves." Everything else I delete from my playlist the day after Christmas.

The rest of my family (what's left of it 😞 ) won't even listen to that much. They think it's smaltzy. Heathens.  😉 

[Carol the Dabbler]

One of the local radio stations plays nothing but Christmas music for about a month, and Alex loves listening to it on his way to and from work.

I don't often listen to music, because in order to appreciate it, I need to focus, unlike most people who can apparently process the music as a background task.  But there are some Christmas songs that I really like, so I'll occasionally play a CD or just sing or hum or whistle them myself.

There are some Christmas songs that I like better than others, of course, but there are two that really rub me the wrong way.  One is Little Drummer Boy, which I find incredibly annoying for some unknown reason..  The other is one of those not-specifically-Christmas-songs that get played at Christmas, called Little Altar Boy, which I find really creepy (*shudder*).

[Hikari]

36 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

One of the local radio stations plays nothing but Christmas music for about a month, and Alex loves listening to it on his way to and from work.

I don't often listen to music, because in order to appreciate it, I need to focus, unlike most people who can apparently process the music as a background task.  But there are some Christmas songs that I really like, so I'll occasionally play a CD or just sing or hum or whistle them myself.

There are some Christmas songs that I like better than others, of course, but there are two that really rub me the wrong way.  One is Little Drummer Boy, which I find incredibly annoying for some unknown reason..  The other is one of those not-specifically-Christmas-songs that get played at Christmas, called Little Altar Boy, which I find really creepy (*shudder*).

"The Little Drummer Boy" was a childhood favorite here.  My parents owned three (3) Christmas albums, and Little Drummer Boy was on the Ray Conniff Singers one with the Santa girl on the cover.  I'd race into the living room where our biga$$ stereo was and get out my little coffee can drum and drumsticks (pencils).  I really identified with the underdog hero of this story.  But I can understand that from an adult perspective, this song can be twee.  I still like it, but could gladly give "Do You Hear What I Hear?" a miss for the rest of my life.

David Bowie did his famous duet on Bing Crosby's variety show in 1977.  David balked at singing the song, stating that he hated it.  "I wanted to be on the show because my Mum loves you (Bing), but I'm not singing that song."  This was on the day of taping so they were in a bit of a bind, but some brilliant producer came up with the lovely countermelody that DB was happy to sing.  They don't play this one on the radio anymore, despite it being performed by two music legends, at least one of whom who left us far too soon.

Also, the debate over how to pronounce Bowie ends here:  David himself says 'Bow-rhymes with-hoe-ee'.

The singing proper begins at the 2:00 mark.  Feel free to fast-forward over the painful pre-song banter.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

1 hour ago, Hikari said:

I really identified with the underdog hero of this story.  But I can understand that from an adult perspective, this song can be twee.  I still like it, but could gladly give "Do You Hear What I Hear?" a miss for the rest of my life.

I can certainly sympathize with the drummer boy himself, and I recall hearing the song while I was a kid (though I'm not sure what my reaction was then).  Maybe you're right about the adult me finding it just a bit too -- something.  But I will second you on "Do You Hear" -- I can tolerate that one, but if it were to evaporate, I sure wouldn't miss it.

1 hour ago, Hikari said:

David Bowie did his famous duet on Bing Crosby's variety show in 1977.  David balked at singing the song, stating that he hated it.  "I wanted to be on the show because my Mum loves you (Bing), but I'm not singing that song."  This was on the day of taping so they were in a bit of a bind, but some brilliant producer came up with the lovely countermelody that DB was happy to sing.

Your back story is interesting, but -- due to my one-thing-at-a-time mind -- I found the performance hard to follow.  I'd actually prefer to hear just Bing doing the original song, come think of it.  There's apparently something about an older man singing it that makes the song more tolerable for me.  Maybe it's the idea that the former little boy is retelling the story as an old man, which I find touching.  The intro to the Wikipedia entry hints at that interpretation, which had never occurred to me before tonight.

[Artemis]

I really love traditional Christmas carols, they're so haunting and magical.  But I don't get to hear them much during the season anymore because radio stations and cover artists play mostly the secular ones that have been written in the last 50 years or so.  (And even when the Christian stations play traditional religious ones, it's always a noisy, jazzed-up version.)  There are a few exceptions though; I still hear "Carol of the Bells" occasionally, which is one of my absolute favorites.  "Little Drummer Boy" gets played a lot, too much honestly, lol.  It's not my favorite but I still have a fondness for it, my favorite Christmas record as a kid featured the drummer boy on the cover.  I still like "Do You Hear What I Hear".

Off the top of my head, these are some of my favorite carols (in alphabetical order):

Angels We Have Heard On High
Carol of the Bells
Coventry Carol
Ding Dong Merrily on High
The First Noel
Fum, Fum, Fum
God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
Good Christian Men, Rejoice
Hark, the Herald Angels Sing
Here We Come A-Wassailing
The Holly and the Ivy
How Great Our Joy (While By My Sheep I Watched at Night/Echo Hymn)
I Saw Three Ships
Jesus Born on This Day
Joy to the World
O Come All Ye Faithful
O Come, O Come Emmanuel
O Holy Night
O Little Town of Bethlehem
Pat-A-Pan
Sing We Now of Christmas
St. Basil's Hymn
Un Flambeau, Jeannette, Isabelle (Bring a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella)
We Three Kings

I also really like a few more recent songs (as in not centuries old, lol) by Michael W. Smith which combine carols; namely "Christmastime", "Medley (Emmanuel)", and "Gloria".  "Agnus Dei" is another of his that's more of an Easter song, but still Christmasy enough for me.  Handel's "Messiah" is a seasonal favorite as well (though also not technically Christmas).

 

[Artemis]

8 hours ago, Hikari said:

Also, the debate over how to pronounce Bowie ends here:  David himself says 'Bow-rhymes with-hoe-ee'.

There was a debate?   

 

[Arcadia]

Aww, I love all of them. Probably because I only hear each one of them once or twice a year.

[Carol the Dabbler]

@Artemis  I love some of your favorites, don't too much care for others -- and have never even heard of a few!  So now I'm trying to think what my own favorites are, so I can post a list.  Please tell me -- HOW DID YOU MAKE YOUR LIST SINGLE SPACED???  I haven't been able to do that since we got the new software, back a couple years ago or so.

[Artemis]

On 11/30/2019 at 1:21 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

Please tell me -- HOW DID YOU MAKE YOUR LIST SINGLE SPACED???  I haven't been able to do that since we got the new software, back a couple years ago or so.

Are you using the site with a mobile device?  If so, I haven't yet found a way to single space on mobile (which I also find rather frustrating).   

If you're on desktop, there are two ways.  One is pressing SHIFT + ENTER.  The other, more roundabout way, is typing out your post on a program like Notepad, and then copy/pasting it to the editor.

I look forward to seeing your list! 

I thought of some others (not necessarily favorites, but I still like them):

Away in a Manger
Carolan's Welcome
Caroling, Caroling
Gloucestershire Wassail
Good King Wenceslas
Go Tell it on the Mountain
The Huron Carol
I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day
Infant Holy, Infant Lowly
In the Bleak Midwinter
It Came Upon a Midnight Clear
I Wonder as I Wander
The King
Let All That are to Mirth Inclined
Let Us the Infant Greet
Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming
Ma-O-Tzur (this one's actually for Hanukkah)
One Small Child
Sheep May Safely Graze
Silent Night
Some Children See Him
The Wexford Carol
What Child is This (Greensleeves)