Shoot the Wall (A.K.A. The Rant Thread)

[Carol the Dabbler]

13 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

2020 is the year when Karen name officially extinct.

I doubt it.  Memes come and go, and not everyone is tuned into social media.  Also, names come any go for no apparent reason.  Karen hasn't been a popular baby name since the 80's or so, meaning that it will be an uncommon name for a few decades anyhow.  After that, who knows?  I've been amazed by the recent resurgence of the name Zeke, because to me Zeke is a toothless old prospector in a Western movie -- but today's new parents don't remember the same movies that I do.

 

13 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

... these few weeks I have two people trying to tell me that Covid 19 is not real and just a conspiracy theory and political tool; one is supposedly well educated and well travelled with tons of life experience, the other is the parent of a veterinarian.

Even if Covid 19 is a completely natural phenomenon, it is undoubtedly being used for political advantage, in various ways, in most parts of the world right now.  So it's perfectly understandable that some people suspect it's entirely a government plot.  I can't prove otherwise; can you?

 

9 hours ago, J.P. said:

They will surely ask why thousands and thousands of people went on vacation as soon as it wasn't forbidden.

Not if they have any knowledge whatsoever of human nature, they won't!  

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

I said they believe Covid-19 is not real and just conspiracy theory and political tool. What kind of idiocy level to believe that Covid-19 is not real at this stage?

 

You said that,

3 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

So it's perfectly understandable that some people suspect it's entirely a government plot. I can't prove otherwise, can you?

So do you mean they think it's real or not? Because it makes a lot of difference in questioning my statement.

 

If you were saying that they think it's real, but entirely government plot, I wouldn't say it's impossible as crazier thing have happened. Then in this case I wouldn't disagree much although that is not my original angle and the world entirely is very questionable; experiment goes wrong, out of control, whatever agenda etc, maybe, but 'entirely' a plot would involve amazing level of self destruction and stupidity, don't you think? Scratch that entirely it could be awesome sci-fact plot.

But if you were saying that they don't even think that it's real, it's just government plot, which I suppose means it's only rumor and story, theatrical, than I guess more people need to die to convince them, presumably someone closer to them because some people have difficulty grasping the actual risk and fragility of life when they witness it remotely.

And if this is the case, then I really really find your 'perfectly understandable' phrase disturbing.

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

13 hours ago, J.P. said:

They will surely ask why thousands and thousands of people went on vacation as soon as it wasn't forbidden.

Your example being one, actually all these are very surprising to me, apparently human being are very, how to put it, fragile? social? needy?

While I understand the difficulty of adjusting and some negative effects, especially those with depression and illness, but on others you would think humanity would crumble if this goes longer from what we have seen so far, how some people reacting to all these quarantine, lockdown etc. Fortunately there are many more sensible ones.

[Carol the Dabbler]

14 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

If you were saying that they think it's real, but entirely government plot, I wouldn't say it's impossible as crazier thing have happened. Then in this case I wouldn't disagree much although that is not my original angle and the world entirely is very questionable; experiment goes wrong, out of control, whatever agenda etc, maybe, but 'entirely' a plot would involve amazing level of self destruction and stupidity, don't you think? Scratch that entirely it could be awesome sci-fact plot.

But if you were saying that they don't even think that it's real, it's just government plot, which I suppose means it's only rumor and story, theatrical, than I guess more people need to die to convince them, presumably someone closer to them because some people have difficulty grasping the actual risk and fragility of life when they witness it remotely.

And if this is the case, then I really really find your 'perfectly understandable' phrase disturbing.

My "perfectly understandable" referred to my understanding why people might hold the opinion, rather than to my understanding the opinion itself.  Personally, I assume Covid-19 is real, though probably (like everything else) being used to some extent for political and other personal purposes.  As for those who disagree, apparently some think it's a government-assisted disease while others think it's a government fiction.

As for number of deaths, I believe that just about any "cause of death" figure is questionable, especially where "natural causes" are concerned.  For example, I think one reason (among many) why heart attacks are listed as a leading cause of death is that when someone drops dead unexpectedly with no sign of foul play, the cause is generally listed as "apparent heart attack," whereas it could just as easily have been a stroke, aneurysm, etc.  Probably something cardiovascular, yes, but not necessarily a heart attack.  My mother's cause of death was listed as Alzheimer's disease, even though she was never diagnosed with anything more specific than "memory loss," and my online research leads me to believe that it was actually a different type of dementia.  But an awful lot of people use "Alzheimer's" as a synonym for dementia, apparently including the hospice nurse who reported her death.  This guarantees that the statistics list Alzheimer's as the most common type of dementia.  That sort of thing tends to be self-perpetuating.

Of course Covid-19 is in a brand-new category of its own, but it's my understanding that if a person has Covid and dies, their death is officially attributed to Covid, even if the person was already about to die of something else.  So the official figures represent a maximum possible number, rather than a best estimate of how many people died from Covid as such (in other words, those who would likely still be alive otherwise).

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

Well, that opinion leads them to disregard and endanger others, that is my problem.

Personally, I think not all opinion can be respected or understandable, there are harmless and there are dangerous and distructive opinion, there are very questionable opinion built on some messy theories regardless of evidence. It must be a hellish world for them when all news in the world is broadcasting something fake and they are forced to do things, what a victim. It must be maddening that the earth is not a disk and they wonder why people prefer to be injected with dangerous substance and why polio is back.

My original post is to say that I don't have energy to reason with those opinion and I still don't. I could but it would drive me to a wall and make me more irratable that my usual self, which is in template is already annoying I suppose, and also it requires me to care to enlighten them but there is limit to what I could do patiently.

 

8 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

So the official figures represent a maximum possible number, rather than a best estimate of how many people died from Covid as such (in other words, those who would likely still be alive otherwise).

Maximum? Nope, I really don't think so. But I am not a scientist or someone in medical field or anything so I leave it at that.

 

8 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

 

As for number of deaths, I believe that just about any "cause of death" figure is questionable, especially where "natural causes" are concerned.  For example, I think one reason (among many) why heart attacks are listed as a leading cause of death is that when someone drops dead unexpectedly with no sign of foul play, the cause is generally listed as "apparent heart attack," whereas it could just as easily have been a stroke, aneurysm, etc.

Not contradicting your theory, but on the side line it is exactly one of the problem, there are certain people more at risk for complication and permanent damage from their existing underlying condition or other reasons that make it fatal, it's not equal. Most people with the virus would probably only experience some mild effect, but they could go around and infect others who might not.

[Carol the Dabbler]

1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

there are very questionable opinion built on some messy theories regardless of evidence

Of course there are.  People have different ways of looking at things.  If someone disagrees with you, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are being illogical or ignoring evidence.  More likely, they're starting with different assumptions than the assumptions that you are starting with.  There is a field of mathematics called non-Euclidean geometry, which starts with different assumptions than regular Euclidean geometry and therefore arrives at different conclusions.  That doesn't make it wrong or illogical, merely different, and it's more useful for certain things than regular geometry is.

I'm not saying that I agree with everybody.  Of course not, because I have my own starting assumptions.  But I know some perfectly intelligent, perfectly nice people who disagree with me on certain things, and that's fine.  Yes, I sometimes worry about them, but I'm sure they return the favor.

 

1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

My original post is to say that I don't have energy to reason with those opinion and I still don't. I could but it would drive me to a wall and make me more irratable that my usual self, which is in template is already annoying I suppose, and also it requires me to care to enlighten them but there is limit to what I could do patiently.

I agree.  Running my own life takes enough of my time and energy that I have very little left over for trying to run the rest of the world.

 

[J.P.]

Re: the dying from COVID vs. dying with COVID:
If you die in a car accident, it doesn't matter that your heart was too weak to deal with the blood loss, or if broken bones caused fat embolism, or if your brain swelled in your crushed skull until the blood stopped to circulate. You die because you were in a car accident, no matter how your health was before. You would still be alive without that accident. The same is for Corona imo.

BTW, the more we know about the virus, the darker it gets. It does not only wreaks havoc in your system if you were seriously ill. There is also long term damage - to your heart, your blood vessels, your kidneys, even to your brain, and that also applies to people who were hardly sick, or even not sick at all. I'm afraid we are in deep trouble.

[Douglas]

6 minutes ago, J.P. said:

Re: the dying from COVID vs. dying with COVID:
If you die in a car accident, it doesn't matter that your heart was too weak to deal with the blood loss, or if broken bones caused fat embolism, or if your brain swelled in your crushed skull until the blood stopped to circulate. You die because you were in a car accident, no matter how your health was before. You would still be alive without that accident. The same is for Corona imo.

BTW, the more we know about the virus, the darker it gets. It does not only wreaks havoc in your system if you were seriously ill. There is also long term damage - to your heart, your blood vessels, your kidneys, even to your brain, and that also applies to people who were hardly sick, or even not sick at all. I'm afraid we are in deep trouble.

Oh Dear: just what we need; isn't it!!  And to think that some people still aren't taking this whole CORONOVIRUS thing seriously! 

[J.P.]

It's crazy isn't it? You could say, being cautious would be a normal reaction - that means if something might be dangerous, you behave as if it WAS dangerous, until you are sure it isn't. But people behave like: "if it might be dangerous we will do as if it wasn't, until someone proves it is. So let's us do (or not) only the things that are required, but not an inch more than that."

How did Humanity manage to come down from the trees? Maybe we evolved from the apes that were to dumb to climb and fell down. 😕

[Carol the Dabbler]

2 hours ago, J.P. said:

Re: the dying from COVID vs. dying with COVID:
If you die in a car accident, it doesn't matter that your heart was too weak to deal with the blood loss, or if broken bones caused fat embolism, or if your brain swelled in your crushed skull until the blood stopped to circulate. You die because you were in a car accident, no matter how your health was before. You would still be alive without that accident. The same is for Corona imo.

That may be true, but your analogy assumes that Covid 19 is usually fatal (like a terrible car crash), which hardly seems to be the case.  Some people have apparently had it without even realizing they were ill.

So let's compare two cases:

Case A is a person otherwise in perfect health who contracts Covid 19, is terribly ill from it, and dies without recovering.

Case B is a person who is already seriously ill, not expected to live longer than a few more weeks.  They contract Covid 19 and die within a few weeks.

I think Case A is more like your car crash victim, whereas Case B would have died at about the same time whether they contracted Covid or not, and there's really no way of knowing whether it killed them or their existing illness killed them.  In short, Case A is clearly a Covid fatality, whereas Case B is questionable.

Of course there are probably also people who die of Covid without anyone realizing they have / had it.  So the uncertainty goes both ways.

 

[Caya]

That's why, around here at least, they're also measuring what is called Übersterblichkeit in German, excess mortality, namely, how many more people have died in the last month than in the same month during the years before, on average and compared to population size. With Covid-19 being the main difference to those years, that yields a pretty solid ballpark estimate.

As for people still believing that Covid-19 is a big conspiracy or whatever, I'm with Patton Oswalt there:

[Douglas]

2 hours ago, Caya said:

That's why, around here at least, they're also measuring what is called Übersterblichkeit in German, excess mortality, namely, how many more people have died in the last month than in the same month during the years before, on average and compared to population size. With Covid-19 being the main difference to those years, that yields a pretty solid ballpark estimate.

As for people still believing that Covid-19 is a big conspiracy or whatever, I'm with Patton Oswalt there:

This is a good one, Caya!!! 

[Van Buren Supernova]

3 hours ago, Caya said:

That's why, around here at least, they're also measuring what is called Übersterblichkeit in German, excess mortality, namely, how many more people have died in the last month than in the same month during the years before, on average and compared to population size. With Covid-19 being the main difference to those years, that yields a pretty solid ballpark estimate.

As for people still believing that Covid-19 is a big conspiracy or whatever, I'm with Patton Oswalt there:

Thank you! And sign me up!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree too.

But I do try to respect other people's right to hold their beliefs.  I also try to remember that just because somebody disagrees with me, doesn't necessarily mean that either of us is wrong.

  

4 hours ago, Caya said:

they're also measuring what is called Übersterblichkeit in German, excess mortality, namely, how many more people have died in the last month than in the same month during the years before, on average and compared to population size. With Covid-19 being the main difference to those years, that yields a pretty solid ballpark estimate.

That sounds like a useful metric.  I don't offhand recall seeing it used around here, but that doesn't mean it isn't.

 

[T.o.b.y]

On 8/18/2020 at 5:18 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

I agree too.

But I do try to respect other people's right to hold their beliefs.  I also try to remember that just because somebody disagrees with me, doesn't necessarily mean that either of us is wrong.

 

Carol, I suspect you tend to assume that most people are reasonable and sane like you. I would like to think the same and I usually try to stick to this approach as well but over the last few years, I have had to learn (reluctantly) that there comes a point where I have to draw the line. And what to do about those who try to replace knowledge with belief? Like "but I believe the earth is flat and I have a right to that belief". Um, yeah, sure you do, go right ahead, but don't expect me to dignify this belief with a serious discussion. I'm perfectly willing to discuss evidence and data and sources and probabilities, but just "I believe" - what am I supposed to do with that?

[Carol the Dabbler]

6 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

Carol, I suspect you tend to assume that most people are reasonable and sane like you.

Thank you for implying that you consider me reasonable and sane!      But just because someone has a different outlook from you doesn't necessarily mean they are either unreasonable or insane, or even illogical.

Any system of logic rests on a set of assumptions.  (In geometry these are called axioms.)  I'm guessing that one of your basic assumptions is a trust in science (even though you are fully aware that science has made some ridiculous errors in the past, and most likely will do so again).  Other people may choose to rest their logical systems on other sets of assumptions -- a religion, for example, or simply the way they were raised.
 

16 hours ago, T.o.b.y said:

... what to do about those who try to replace knowledge with belief? Like "but I believe the earth is flat and I have a right to that belief". Um, yeah, sure you do, go right ahead, but don't expect me to dignify this belief with a serious discussion. I'm perfectly willing to discuss evidence and data and sources and probabilities, but just "I believe" - what am I supposed to do with that?

Well, you're not going to convince them with science, any more than an evangelical Christian is going to convince you by quoting the Bible.  Like I said, the two of you have different assumptions underlying your logical structures.  Sometimes it helps to approach them on their own ground, but that only works if you're somewhat familiar with it.  In many cases, there's no need for you to do anything.

But if you're talking about, for example, someone who doesn't believe they should have to follow the current rules in stores, restaurants, etc. -- well, it doesn't really matter WHY those places have those rules.  The relevant point is that they DO have them, so if the person wants to go there, then they have to abide by them.  You might try pointing out that the person presumably has certain expectations of visitors to their home -- don't track dirt in or don't smoke indoors or don't swear or whatever -- and stores, restaurants, etc. also have certain expectations of their visitors.  It's just that right now there are a few extra ones.

 

[Artemis]

Saw Christmas decor up in stores last week.  Are you ready for Christmas??  =D

...Yeah, me neither.

 

[Hikari]

Never too early to get that pre-lighted Christmas tree . . .

No, I am not ready for Christmas.  I am never ready for Christmas the week of, and I'm still salty about Facebook jamming Halloween memes down my throat, which began approximately a month ago.  According to my 'Memories', I was complaining about the identical thing at the exact same time last year, so I'm not imagining the patterns of those sneaky algorithms.  Apparently I can't program the algorithm to 'I hate Halloween and all commercial holidays; LEAVE ME ALONE'.

Fall and winter holidays are certainly going to look different this year . . no trick-or-treat; no community parties, concerts, holiday musicals, packed malls, packed church services . . No wonder the stores are desperate for people to at least buy Christmas trees.

I know three people who have had COVID and recovered.  One was a frequent air traveler/convention speaker, and she got it early, in April; one is a nurse working on a COVID unit and one is a long-haul trucker.  The last needed to be hospitalized for 4-5 days on oxygen.  Ages range from the late forties to the late fifties.  No prior conditions.  At least two of them are regular exercisers.  One's a vegetarian.  The  other, a long-distance runner who trains constantly.  I know anecdotally of a person connected to my nephew's school--the spouse of an administrator--who died back in April--he was 50 years old.  There's no rhyme or reason with this.  Some patients in their 90s/100+ are walking out of hospitals.  Other young adults of 20, 30 . .incredibly fit . .do not survive.  With schools opening back up at all levels, I think we are on the precipice of a second wave.  It is certainly not a hoax, but I wonder if the enforced shut-down of so much of the economy is going to have proved to be in vain, pretty much, rendering damage that will last for decades.  We've all grown up hearing about the terrible travails of the Great Depression, and that's essentially where we are with our widespread unemployment and people going hungry and becoming homeless because they have no income.  When my county went on lockdown in mid March, we had something like 14 cases and 1 death due to Covid.   Now we are up to 1300 cases and 53 deaths.  Draconian lockdown measures didn't actually work, and in any case the American public was not going to stand for more.  How bad will it have to get in Jan. - Feb. to face that spectre again?  All the elected officials know that COVID is the kyptonite issue.  Governors/mayors who attempt to enforce restrictions are committing political suicide, and they are aware of it.

Germs don't do politics, and this virus is opportunistically exploiting our political divide for its own survival.  As Ned Stark says, "Winter is coming".  We are in this for the long haul.

I have not seen my 83-year-old mother since February.  She has not hugged her grandkids since then, either, though she sees them occasionally.  She can't go to church; bell choir and bible studies are cancelled; she rarely goes out anywhere.  She was complaining about having to wear the mask when getting groceries--30 minutes,every 2-3 weeks.  I am working full time and have to wear the mask for hours every day and get temperature monitored.  I exist in a perpetual state of dry mouth.  Que sera, sera.

Stay healthy, everyone!

[J.P.]

I bet we have some christmassy stuff already in the stores.

[Carol the Dabbler]

14 hours ago, Artemis said:

Saw Christmas decor up in stores last week.  Are you ready for Christmas??

Gahhh!!!  It's bad enough that the stores around here started putting up Halloween and/or Thanksgiving stuff a few weeks ago.

5 hours ago, Hikari said:

Fall and winter holidays are certainly going to look different this year . . no trick-or-treat; no community parties, concerts, holiday musicals, packed malls, packed church services

I did a quick Google, and looks like a lot of people are still planning to trick-or-treat (the only holiday where masks are traditional!).  And -- at least here in Indiana -- we're currently allowed fairly large gatherings, provided social distancing can be maintained.  So parties and concerts are semi-OK (likewise parades).  But, as you say, none of those elbow-to-elbow crowds.  Though of course things could change in the autumn.

 

[Fantasy Lover]

 

 

 

Saw Christmas decor up in stores last week.  Are you ready for Christmas??  =D

...Yeah, me neither.

 

God no, I'm not in the mood for the holidays. I want this year to end, and it's the second year in a row I feel this way.

 

Anyhow, last month I went on a holiday with my mom. My mom is usually very meticulous when she plans stuff, so she knows where to get on and off and when the bus arrives. But on that trip she decided to channel her inner boomer by asking random people on the street for directions, or the busdriver to notify us when we would arrive at our stop or rely on her memory because she went there 3 years ago so no directions were needed. So of course we got off the wrong stop, missed our stop, walked in the wrong direction and took the wrong bus, I was pissed of course.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

5 hours ago, Fantasy Lover said:

My mom is usually very meticulous when she plans stuff, so she knows where to get on and off and when the bus arrives. But on that trip she decided to channel her inner boomer by asking random people on the street for directions, or the busdriver to notify us when we would arrive at our stop or rely on her memory because she went there 3 years ago so no directions were needed. So of course we got off the wrong stop, missed our stop, walked in the wrong direction and took the wrong bus

Good heavens, don't tell me your mom has suddenly become a MAN!?!  

Seriously, when we're getting ready to go anywhere that we don't normally go, I try to remember to at least bring their address and phone number.  Because even if my dear husband swears up and down that he knows exactly where the place is, that's just as likely to mean that he has a general idea which part of town it's in, and then will be perfectly content to cruise up and down the streets looking for the exact spot, rather than asking anyone for directions.  I'm generally a very patient person, but I do have my limits!  And I've heard that a lot of other wives are in the same boat.  I've even seen entire sitcom episodes based on this theme.  Something about hormones, apparently.

 

[Artemis]

The parking lot at my workplace appears to be a hotbed of possibly illegal or otherwise unseemly activity.  I'm fairly certain I've seen a few drug deals, and today I found a condom wrapper where I usually park.  Gross.  Can't people conduct their "business" elsewhere?

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

3 hours ago, Artemis said:

The parking lot at my workplace appears to be a hotbed of possibly illegal or otherwise unseemly activity.

You work in the daytime, I hope?

 

[Artemis]

11 minutes ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

You work in the daytime, I hope?

Not at this job.  Well, yes and no.  I work mornings on weekends, but nights the rest of the week.