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gerry
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Days Won
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Posts posted by gerry
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Yes! I even thought it may have been as far back as TSOT. I mean CAM must have known that Mary had befriended his assistant (long before the wedding if Janine was in the wedding party) and did recon on the people in her life. I would not be surprised if that’s why Janine was so forward with Sherlock upon first sight. In essence i thought they were using each other from the very beginning but had fun doing it which is why I never took any of it seriously.
And then she bertrayed her boss and sold the "insider infos" to another publisher. :D
This would have made the most sense given the tone of how the scenes were written and acted.In the script Janine have been aware that the marriage was never going to happen. She clearly says so.
I still stick to my headcanon that she was spying Sherlock on behalf of CAM. She let Sherlock in, because CAM wanted to surprise him and catch him in the act of trying to steal the letters. What Janine didn't know was that at the same time Mary has broken in.
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Isn’t it a bit contradictory to say that his behavior for real life standards is deplorable and yet assess he’s a good man by real life standards? How can both be true? That’s like calling someone a good student who gets an A in one class and an F in all others.
Personally I find it difficult to check my sense of morality that far for the sake of entertainment. To that end I found Sherlock’s murder of an unarmed man with no remorse at all to be by far the worst thing he ever did. That is something pyshopaths and sociopaths do, not good men.
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Fair enough Bedelia.
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I definitely think they reflect his real thoughts so I don’t find him to be tone deaf or ignorant. I just think he doesn’t care about other people’s feelings.I suppose for me- when Sherlock gives his digs to people about how they look/ plays on their insecurities, I do find him rude, but I also think, so what, how qualified his he to make these judgements, how seriously can anyone take them? And also, I don't find the insults to be reflection of his real thoughts...I think I've mentioned this before- for me his tone-deaf insults betray more his own insecurity,
This is my fault. I checked the transcript, I was remembering a cut line from an earlier draft of the script where Molly said that Tom wanted space. What ended up in the final version didn’t have that line so it doesn’t count. The final script just has Sherlock notice she’s not wearing a ring which was rude too but there’s no proof as to who dumped who.Slight O/T but does everyone think Tom dumped Molly???! Totally thought it was the other way round, and that at the wedding she realised he wasn't intelligent enough for her?
I don’t think you do the vast majority of what Sherlock does if you’re a gentleman. It probably comes down to the sense I have that Molly is emotionally defenseless so insulting people who are that nice and sensitive is worse than tricking a woman who didn’t seem that into Sherlock to begin with and given how she forward she was with Sherlock in TSOT is probably experienced in dating and more realistic about it. It wasn’t like they had a long term relationship or something. Don’t get me wrong, I think it was a shitty thing to do but I’m not surprised. I would think he’d treat people he claims are his friends better though.Again, probably similar to Lestrade, I just don't like this because it's this girl's real life. Hopefully she didn't take the proposal very seriously- but you just don't do what he did, if you're a gentleman....It's real-life bad form...
It’s interesting to me though that so many here find insulting others personally is no big deal. Normally such is behavior is not common communication techniques or good form in real life either but this is all based on what resonates with us, right, and how you rate Sherlock multiple forms of deplorable behavior!
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This would have made the most sense given the tone of how the scenes were written and acted.In the script Janine have been aware that the marriage was never going to happen. She clearly says so.
I still stick to my headcanon that she was spying Sherlock on behalf of CAM. She let Sherlock in, because CAM wanted to surprise him and catch him in the act of trying to steal the letters. What Janine didn't know was that at the same time Mary has broken in.
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Ok then
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I’m curious why you think how Sherlock treated people from the beginning of the show is indicative of a good man? He even committed murder with no remorse. Given his lack of guilt over many things, I just don’t get that.Yeah. I think Sherlock is a good man, but personally, I thought he was from the beginning.
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Personal insults intentionally directed at me will always be harder to brush off. About Lestrade, I’m curious on why you think that? Lestrade wasn’t the one cheating, though I’m sure it would hurt him and his pride that his wife was cheating but Lestrade is the wronged party in this case. If anything it would inspire pity. It was insensitive and rude to embarrass Lestrade by airing dirty laundry in front of everyone but if anything Sherlock was insulting the wife.Whereas for me, some of his personal remarks/ taunts, for some reason, I would find easier to brush off, whereas the idea that he would expose Letsrade's wife's infidelity, which I think he wasn't supposed to know about, in front of everyone, is a worse level of cruel?
Agreed when it’s banter and each give as good as they get. But even between boys/men it can be more bully against weaker guys instead. It just depends on the two people involved. In real life, look at all the bullying that goes on now in high schools especially with social media where kids are killing themselves over the aftermath. It’s really a problem nowadays.It may not be nice, but I hear guys slag each other off like that all the time- not all men, but to me its a remnant of the schoolyard?
He didn’t just take shots at her body. He took shots like she shouldn’t make conversation because she’s not good at it and not to date because she’s not good at it (including throwing the fact that Tom dumped her in her face), mocked her feelings in TLD etc. He has made digs and direct insults at almost all aspects of her personality, except science.I suppose part of what make's Molly's worse, is that women are more judged on how they look- perhaps unfairly, so it seems especially churlish to take shots at her.
FTR, I’d feel the same way if he said the same things to Mrs. Hudson. Both women don’t banter. They aren’t the type to insult anyone with or without provocation so watching either of them be insulted is not entertaining to me. I don’t find it funny, instead I think Sherlock is a jerk. Whereas if he says something to Mycroft or John, I’d expect them to throw barbs back at Sherlock which both have done.
I think Sherlock was a jerk to Janine too but for some reason this one has never resonated with me that much. Probably more of a reflection of me. Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed her getting revenge on Sherlock but I didn’t feel sorry for her. Maybe because of the way she carries herself (a bit obnoxious) or maybe it’s because I just never took the proposal seriously. Was there a time difference between TSOT and HLV? I can’t remember but I remember thinking how could she possibly be in love with Sherlock or taking this proposal seriously over the intercom? Everything about it seemed like it played as a joke.But Janine- honestly, for me, Janine is the worst of all, because if Sherlock Holmes, the Benedict Cumberbatch version, said he wanted to propose to me and then, after getting my hopes up I find out that I was just a hapless pawn- and even the dating bit had been a lie, and hanging out while he splashed around in the bath, (perhaps most devastatingly of all), was just a lie- it would be upsetting on a whole different level from someone telling me my lipstick and dress were trying too hard. I know Janine bounced back fairly well- and got her revenge, but that must have really stung.
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Exactly Artemis, it just wasn’t earned in the context the line was written. I’m likely alone in this but i don’t think the line was justified based on what we saw onscreen either. He committed cold blooded murder in HLV while laughing it up in T6T and feeling zero remorse until he escalated the situation that led to Mary’s death in the same series but you’re supposed to believe by TFP he’s suddenly now a good man becuase he showed concern for Mycroft? What they find to be a good man and what I do may be very different things.
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Excuse my ignorance but is Ace supposed to mean in this context?
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You’ll never get an argument from me that Sherlock’s a jerk to nearly everyone. There are different ways to be a jerk though. It’s just to me, personal insults like you’re ugly, dumb, fat, evil, etc., are worse than embarrassing someone by outing their spouse’s infidelity publicly or being unnecessarily rude. So to that end I think he’s the worst to Mycroft and Molly. He was a jerk to Janine by lying but he wasn’t rude.. in that case he actually used charm to be a jerk. Who knew that was possible?!Yeah for me, Sherlock is an equal opportunities jerk to nearly everyone- except possibly Mary? And Irene too, I suppose, though it's just one episode, and he does try to embarrass her at least at bit with the passcode thing.
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The writers really only put real thought and time into the John/Sherlock relationship. All others are lacking in some way to me. Like how Lestrade came to a good man conclusion? Was it just because sherlock showed concern for Mycroft? That’s a lot to infer too.
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I can definitely empathize with you on that. Unfortunately I think it’s a byproduct of the writing style of this show... what they choose to directly address and what they choose to let the viewer infer. I’m guessing moffat would say of course Sherlock knows johns sorry about beating him up and of course Sherlock’s sorry about contributing to Mary’s death so why do they have to say it? Or something along those lines. Whether having to infer something takes away from your enjoyment of the end of course will depend on each viewers POV. This scene seems to be your equivalent of the ILY call follow up for me but at least there was dialogue in the TLD end even if it wasn’t specifically what you wanted. That’s the only silver lining I can come up with!One can easily ascribe more meanings to it if one chooses, but they have to be inferred.
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I know what you mean about that scene primarily being about John’s guilt over Mary. What I thought was closure for John/Sherlock was the exchange about being human after Sherlock said he wasn’t proud of texting Irene. It was brief but I wasn’t expecting anything specific about the beating or Sherlock’s part in Mary’s death. I thought the exchange was each acknowledging that they are human and make mistakes but that it was time to move on. Between John’s catharsis after confessing that he cheated with Sherlock supporting him through it, the peace between them made sense to me. John has loyally supported Sherlock through many things over the years. I liked that Sherlock supported John through his grief and regret. It made their friendship deeper I thought.
You might think this is dumb but even the goofy grin he had after shooting the gun seemed more BC than Sherlock too.I agree, I felt the same way about that part of the montage. It stuck out to me as being "off", not quite in line with Sherlock's character. It seemed BC, maybe, but not very Sherlock.
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But is it consistently applied in his other friendships/interactions with Mrs. H, Irene, Janine, etc? I know he’s been sarcastic with John about intelligence but I can’t remember deliberate insults. Was the friend conversation in HOB an insult? I’m not sure. Hurtful definitely though. He also definitely enjoys insulting Mycroft whenever possible for sport. The most I can remember with Lestrade was the you see but you don’t observe or whatever that line was but I wouldn’t consider that an actual insult. I can think of several with Molly though which is why he comes off like a bully to me towards her with the xmas scene taking the cake.I guess because Sherlock is kind of a jerk sometimes, even, or maybe especially to people who matter to him, and especially when he feels vulnerable? And it's not an excuse, I think it's just a deliberate character flaw from the writers.
Caring about Molly’s feelings is the last way I would describe Sherlock’s interactions with her before TRF or after. Look at TLD, he was specifically making fun of her for her feelings....but as someone whose opinion and feelings would matter to him (and yes, that was a bit surprising given how he treated her before that).
You’ve definitely given me food for thought. I think I’m going to watch TRF again and see if I feel differently about it.I could go on, but likely would not convince you!
Well I’m watching season 2 of Victoria on PBS now so I keep wondering if they’re cutting scenes out of this show too! Nothing about the editing makes it obvious if they are but I’m not sure I’m smart enough to catch it. Maybe that’s for the best!As an aside- appalled PBS cut out some of my favourite lines! The editors who work for these channels are butchers, they routinely axe out my favourite parts (probably because they are always more character than plot-based.)
It’s one thing to say nothing specific like Molly you’re a good friend and the other extreme of being a total asshole to her. Is there really nowhere in between? How can anyone expect you to believe the former if you act like the latter?Sherlock often seems to expect people to have kept up with his logic when he's said nothing aloud- so it makes some sense for me that he would have recognised Molly was a good friend and a decent person, and decided she mattered more than most of the tiresome people he came across, and expected her to know that without ever in any way telling her.
I’m not sure there are more good moments than bad even after TRF either which is why in retrospect TRF lost impact for me but I haven’t seen TRF since TFP aired.I do think before then, there were more bad moments than good- Scandal apology: good, Scandal insults: bad, Repeated devious flirting: bad, I mean, Sherlock is no saint, especially in season one...
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On that I agree.I thought in TEH, in the stairwell scene, when he told her that she deserved to be happy, that showed exactly the kind of concern that you're talking about?
I’ve always found that logic funny because I’m not sure I follow Sherlock’s logic if that’s the case but either way did he actually want to work on cases with her or was she just a body because he missed John and it was better than being alone? I mean he was having conversations with John in his head after all. I definitely never believed it was to thank her for what she did for him because when you thank people for their help, you usually do something for them that they want, not something for self-interest. However, maybe it’s like you said it’s just how Sherlock’s mind works but that’s awfully self centered.And also, the invitation to work with him- it might be arrogant of Sherlock but I think it's probably the highest compliment he could pay to another human, the idea that he would like to work on cases with her- in his world view, I'm not sure it gets any better than that.
I might have to watch the scene again but I remember taking the scene as one of those things he didn’t care about and weren’t worth his time, like the solar system. But even if your interpretation is the intended take, why did his retort have to be spoken with an insult to her?The exchange about her father- for me, Sherlock immediately sensed that Molly was going to ask him about how he was feeling, and he instantly went on the defensive....
Agreed here....I wouldn't class it like the Scandal scene...
This is where we diverge. Of course he counts on her and trusts her. She never says no to him and he can manipulate her into just about anything with minimal effort and not coincidentally in that same scene he was about to ask her to do something for him. I have no doubt that Sherlock knows that Molly would do anything for him. In the same episode, he told her to cancel her lunch date which of course she did because she seemingly will drop everything for him if he wants her to....and of course that later leads to him telling her that she does count, that she's always counted and that she was right- which sends a strong message of the way in which he has come to value her.
It’s interesting though because when I watched TRF the first time it was on PBS where they cut out a bit of that scene including those lines. I loved TRF so much that I bought the DVD and realized what was missing. It definitely changed my view of the scene and I thought Sherlock actually added a level of appreciation you don’t get from the cut version but for some reason in retrospect by HLV and TLD, I didn’t view the scene that way anymore. Later episodes colored my view of it I guess.
LOL! Truthfully, I’m still not sure how I feel about his reaction to her line. He did seem suprised but at the time, after the xmas scene in ASIB and the previous episodes like the Jim from IT scene in TGG, I thought the same thing as Molly, that he was pretty indifferent about her.When Molly says to him that she doesn't count- he looks genuinely taken aback to me, as if he realises how cold he has come across to her, and it doesn't reflect how he really feels- again, it's open to interpretation and I'm guessing you may see that totally differently!
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I actually think Moffat’s interviews reflect accurately what he thinks when he writes. They don’t conflict for me. What i think his writing can sometimes conflict with is how Gatiss and Thompson have written something. Like Mary in TSOT and TEH is not the assassin for hire in HLV. The interviews I read are because I try to understand his POV but he usually just comes off as an ass to me. At the very least many of his opinions (not even Molly related) are not exactly the norm.I can see we are coming from totally different points of view, and I do see your side too- it's very frustrating to be told conflicting things from what we see onscreen, and whilst I don't mind having to do a bit of handwaving of certain things Moffat says, I can totally understand the frustrations of it.
I think Hikari addresses this far me better than i ever could in the next post but I thought the trigger for the coffin smash was when Eurus said “you lost”. His entire face changed after that like he couldn’t believe she tricked him.There has to be a reason why the Molly test in particular causes him to lose his cool, even though it's the only one where it transpires there was no mortal risk to anyone?
The dynamic I was referring to was the fundamental Sherlock “Molly, I need, I want, do this or that for me, I’ve got case!” and Molly “yes of course Sherlock!” to anything Sherlock asks of her no matter how big the request and there are times he doesn’t even need to ask because she’s so hung up on him. But what does Sherlock ever do for her? The fact that Sherlock knows how perceptive she is about him or how he can manipulate her doesn’t change the fundamental nature of that relationship which has been the same the entire show. The xmas scene wasn’t exactly kind and even in TEH when he was actually nice to her it was in the process of him using her to keep him company solving cases because John was angry with him which is evidenced by him having a conversation with John in his head so it wasn’t even about her. This is why to me their friendship is quite one sided...she is a good friend to him but I fail to see how he is one to her although I can see a symbiotic nature in all of his other friendships (e.g. Lestrade gets his outstanding cases solved). I’d say he uses her for whatever he can get because it’s available but I’m not sure that’s a reflection of friendship or any kind of love I believe in. I’m not even sure he respects her beyond her scientific knowledge.Incidentally, I don't think their dynamic was the same after Scandal- so many really important things only happened after that, his asking her for help/ to solve crimes, her gaining confidence in dealing with him, challenging him on the drug taking....To me, that's the change right there,- he was taken aback when she noticed how sad he looked in TRF, but by TLD, he expects her to be the person called on when they need someone who understands him and sees through his act.
So anyway my point was for me to believe the ILY call was some sort of epiphany and he actually loves her even as a friend, I’d have to see a change in his behavior towards her, a reflection that he cares about her beyond whether she’s alive, that he actually has an interest in her wellbeing, treats her with respect and actually appreciates how good of a friend she’s been to him in the past. I mean the one time that Molly brought up her father, Sherlock told her not to make conversation because she’s not very good at it. That sends a message doesn’t it?
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Breaking the coffin could very well have been about Eurus or the overall stress of being manipulated in their experiments than empathy for Molly. Either way expressing regret to Molly is entirely different thing than breaking a coffin in a moment of anger.
Seeing her there happy in a second flash doesn’t mean it’s believable or makes sense. You’re just taking it at face value which obviously works for you.I think Molly's very happy expression, in the montage, on visiting Baker Street is enough to know things are better- if they weren't, why would she be there at all?
Just for clarification what I meant by believably happy is the dynamic between them. Meaning is he actually different towards her or not? Is she still hung up on him or has she moved on? Does she actually have a legitimate reason to be that happy around him and want to be friends? You seem like you know the answers to those questions based on her existence in the montage but I don’t. I mean he said he was sorry in the Xmas scene but the dynamic between them remained the same thereafter. I’m sure you’d argue that he’s different now than he was in ASIB or whatever but he was mocking her as recently as TLD. I see no reason from a snippet of a montage how you’re supposed to infer anything one way or another. Moffat claimed Sherlock would be more sensitive to her in the future but I’ll believe it when I see it especially when he’s writing. I mean he wrote the xmas scene which was apparently even worse as originally drafted than what aired which is scary. Being more sensitive than the xmas scene wouldn’t be hard but that is setting a low bar!
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Sherlock’s flashes of kindness have always been sporadic. He’s nice to Mrs. H on occasion, Mary, Irene, “Faith” and a total jerk to others like the headmistress, Molly, Janine, etc. I mean he rescued Irene even after all that she did. So, I’m not sure being nice to a member of his family conveys fundamentally changed man....but I thought the violin scenes with Eurus were blatantly saying that Sherlock is a changed man- he is being kind to his sister, in spite of what she put him through, because he can still empathise with her pain
Wouldn’t they have had to actually address the ILY call for Sherlock to express regret? I’m also not sure how you can tell from the flash in montage that anything really did change in that friendship dynamic.Actually, no. The way I see it, the next time they met, they had to in some way address what had been said in the ILY call, or even if they didn't, in an unspoken way, things had still changed... It might even make it better to know that he cares enough to have some regret at not feeling more
Yeah I won’t take that because for me to find that happiness believable I need to see how they got there. Seeing is believing!Maybe the call doesn't change everything, but it has the capacity to, and in the montage Molly looked happier with the status quo between them than she did in TFP, so I'll take that.
Helping with Rosie actually isn’t what I found not Sherlock Holmes, it was the manner and joy in which he was doing it. There was that scene with Sherlock and Rosie with the rattle.... that was more Sherlock Holmes to me dealing with a baby, not the montage scene. Then again, like I said before everything about the montage seemed out of character to me.I don't think Sherlock is helping John with Rosie because he's fundamentally changed personality by the way- I think he's doing it because he loves John, and sees her as family, and recognises that in the absence of Mary, John needs support. In essence, because Sherlock is a good man.
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To you, is the lack of ILY call a gap or ambiguity and how do you differentiate? Further, if in TLD, the episode ended after John saved Sherlock from Smith in the hospital and there was no scene at the end at Baker Street, would that have been a gap or ambiguity? Would just going from point A (hospital scene) to the beginning of TFP as best buds again (point C) been as satisfying without point B (Baker Street scene with ghost Mary)? And how is going from the ILY call scene (point A) to the montage (point C) satisfying without an equivalent point B scene?For me, I like for even television to allow for little ambiguity- but then I am a fan of grey areas, to me, that it a believable aspect of the human experience. I do think the writing left gaps where it perhaps shouldn't have...
It’s funny to me because the montage even upon initial viewing (specifically the Baker Street scene) seemed so jarring and out of place I thought the actors were just hanging out on set and not in character at all....- but then I think the performances from the actors carried it on- the ILY scene felt right in terms of tone, and so did the montage and both Sherlock and Molly being seemingly in better places in their lives afterwards.
In this possibility do you see Molly still hung up on Sherlock? If so, how would it be good for Molly to still be friends with Sherlock? What would she get out of it given how he is towards her?In whatever capacity, the idea that the talk they had could have been good for them- whether it was a catharsis, a epiphany, a new start, or closure- it's not out of the realm of possibility that in the wake of a difficult time a friendship survives and gets stronger.
You got all of that out of BC’s performance in the montage? I’m not even sure what to say to that. I didn’t. As I said above, count me in with those thinking “that’s not the real Sherlock Holmes”. Maybe it was more like BC though.think TFP, more than anything, was showing how much Sherlock has changed in this regard. Mary's death has been one catalyst- but also he's older, more experienced and has gained the ability to be a bit more vulnerable, to have more empathy. He even seems to be helping John out with his baby! I think a lot of people might have fely like 'that's not the real Sherlock Holmes'- but is is the one we have in the end sequence, nonetheless. I felt like BC conveyed all of that in his scenes in the prison- that old imperviousness had disappeared, and it's one of the best things about his performance and the journey he took with the character.
I am surprised that the what 2 minute montage would be satisfying to you character development wise for a perceived 4 series long character journey.
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For the latter, it comes as no surprise that I don’t find that believable. Sherlock is not exactly someone who takes responsibility for how he treats people.My take on that scene is that the first time, he just says it to get her to say it. Then when she makes him say it, he realizes that it's actually true. What I see happening is Sherlock having a little epiphany that he does love Molly and he doesn't like hurting her, perhaps he even realizes in that moment how he has hurt her in the past and feels sorry about that, perhaps that adds to his anger and distress....
For the former, I’m more of a show me not tell me person so I didn’t find the ILY very believable either because his actions and behavior previous to that episode didn’t convey it. Also, it wasn’t like the writing built to that moment so viewing it as some sort of epiphany seems weird to me. I mean if it was intended to be an epiphany, wouldn’t there have been a follow up scene to illustrate that?
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Not for me. If I wanted to imagine everything I’d read a book. This is a tv show so shouldn’t it be about seeing it happen onscreen? Seems like a generous excuse to justify a lack of logic from scene to scene when the reality is they just didn’t care enough about it (especially in comparison to Eurus to show any follow up). Doesn’t Moffat’s comments in EW pretty much spell that out.... She would just go shag someone!To some extent, there is a sort of beauty in the fact that you have to wonder what happened to cause that flip in attitude. I wouldn't like to have it all entiredly spelled out.
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Why do you think he says it the first time like someone is pulling his teeth if he was sincere? You could easily have the interpretation that it took two tries to say it believably because he’s at the very least not sure about it. I’m also not sure that Molly believed him either.
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I don’t want anyone to. I asked the question at one point where in the episodes is it conveyed that Sherlock loves Molly and the repsonse was there really isn’t anything specific, it’s all in the subtext. I see no reason to rehash that because what’s not subtext is the tone and attitude towards her that ranges from indifference, dismissive, mocking and in the xmas scene, complete asshole. The only episode exception being TEH. I remember being so suprised by the stairs scene that he was nice to her that I rewound the scene and watched it again, lol. Then again, my visceral reaction to that relationship could be that Molly reminds me a lot of my mom. I can’t imagine what I would do if someone talked to my mom like Sherlock talks to Molly. He’s such a bully to someone who would never fight back and stand up for herself. And to call that love is scary to me actually.Gerry, I feel like nothing I could say concerning the nature of Molly and Sherlock's relationship would change your mind and so I won't try.
Sorry that was me venting again!
I’d agree with that wrt to Irene and Janine but his relationships with John, Mycroft, Mrs.H, Molly and Lestrade seem pretty straightforward.Many, many things on Sherlock are ambiguous, especially relationships.
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What about all the previous times before Sherlock contributed to Mary’s death where John has been loyal to Sherlock or Sherlock’s be unpleasant to well, everyone? Sherlock’s no angel. I thought it was about time that Sherlock did the supportive friend role myself.