KaeEm

So it bothers you that John forgave Mary "too quickly". I just wonder: How long do you think would have been appropriate? We know it had taken him several months to even talk to Mary again, so what timespan would have been appropriate for you? Half a year, one year, ten years? But take into consicerdation that there's a baby on the way and he had to somehow get along with Mary just for the sake of this innocent child AND that Sherlock had been convincing him to forgive Mary for months (at least we can assume that, because in all the scenes we got to see Sherlock didn't do anything but try and convince John to give Mary a second chance). It's unfortunate that we don't know what happened between John and Sherlock during the months leading up to Christmas, but Sherlock had clearly set his mind upon bringing John and Mary together again. And we know how good Sherlock is at getting John to do what he wants . . .

Yes, he definitly had to change his mind there! As we've seen in TRF, Lestrade actually has bosses. In such a high profile murder case there would be no way one police officer alone could decide who was believable and who not and if a case has to come to court or not. But I have to admit that by pointing out the way Mary had come into the flat, Sherlock would have convinced any jury that there had been an intruder and he and John would have been found "not guilty". But I don't think that Sherlock and John would have been free of suspiscion. Considering how much the press likes such scandal stories, there would always have stayed a suspicion that John and Sherlock had somehow been involved in the murder, even if they weren't convicted.

It's not unusual that a blow to the head goes along with a - short term - memory loss. I suppose Janine would remember letting Sherlock into the elevator and just assume that - due to the blow to her had - she didn't remember him (or John) knocking her out after he entered the flat. I would agree that it's perfectly logical she would think Sherlock or John did it and she didn't remember, but she doesn't seem to think they did - she knows Sherlock has been shot, I suppose, but why wouldn't she suspect John? She knows she's only let 2 of them in and one of them is shot. She has to suspect John or conclude that there was someone else in there. My assumptions quoted above are all based on the scenario of what would have happened if Mary had shot Magnussen. She didn't, so Magnuessen himself was there to tell Janine that it wasn't John who had shot Sherlock and that there was another intruder.

It's not unusual that a blow to the head goes along with a - short term - memory loss. I suppose Janine would remember letting Sherlock into the elevator and just assume that - due to the blow to her had - she didn't remember him (or John) knocking her out after he entered the flat.

Sorry for disappointing you, but there are many psychopaths among the so-called 'helping professionals' (nurses, doctors, social workers, etc.). They've chosen their job to watch people suffer in order to satisfy their sadistic needs. In another thread Fox (Bakerstreet_Irregular) reported his experience with such a nurse (sorry I can't remember which thread). Mary is a psychopath and we all know that personality disorders cannot be 'healed'. She cannot change the very core of her personality and we've seen this when she shot Sherlock in cold blood and all the events afterwards (she visited Sherlock in hospital and threatened him etc.). Her love for John is simply egoistic and selfish, as other forum members already stated. The problem with killing Magnussen was that Janine wasn't dead and Mary wasn't willing to kill her, too. We don't even know if the security guard was dead, Sherlock just said "who cares" if he's alive or not. Janine had let Sherlock into the flat and would certainly tell the police that he was in the flat at the time the murder happened (while it was highly unlikely that Magnuessen would have contacted the police for the stolen letters - that didn't even exist, I suppose - they surely would have been contacted after he was murdered). And I have no doubt the security footage of the entrance of the building would have shown the police that John had been with Sherlock. So shooting CAM would have led to John becoming a murder suspect - along with Sherlock. Certainly not what Mary wanted to happen. I'm not defending Mary for shooting Sherlock, that was a bad choice. But shooting Magnussen wasn't an option any more in that situation. Following your logic: why Janine didn't tell the police that Sherlock was shot by Mary Morstan? Because Janine didn't see her. Either because of the mask or Mary knocked her off from behind. After killing Magnussen Mary could have fled and Sherlock could have phone the police and tell them he found Magnussen dead. There was no weapon, so I don't think Sherlock or John would have become a murder suspect. You're not disappointing me, no worries I just chose to see things differently than you. And we just don't know if Mary is, indeed, a sociapath or a psychopath. I chose to believe she isn't and that her love for John isn't more selfish than love in general is (because, let's be honest, in real life, love hardly ever is as purely selfless as we'd like to believe). I'm sure Janine didn't even know that anyone other than Sherlock and John ever entered the flat. Mary didn't come in through the main entrance, that's for sure, given her costume. Even if Sherlock had called the police, there would have been no guarantee of him and John not becoming suspects. It wouldn't be the first time that a murderer himself called the police to draw suspicion from himself. And as far as the absence of the murder weapon is concerned, with Janine (and the security guard) swearing that no one else could have entered the flat, the police would just assume that Sherlock and John had somehow got rid of the gun (for someone who faked his own death by jumping off a rooftop the disappearence of a murder weapon must just seem peanuts). Probably there wouldn't have been enough proof for a conviction, but John would at least have become a murder suspect and mentioned as such in the papers which would have caused him a lot of trouble, privatley and professionally.

The problem with killing Magnussen was that Janine wasn't dead and Mary wasn't willing to kill her, too. We don't even know if the security guard was dead, Sherlock just said "who cares" if he's alive or not. Janine had let Sherlock into the flat and would certainly tell the police that he was in the flat at the time the murder happened (while it was highly unlikely that Magnuessen would have contacted the police for the stolen letters - that didn't even exist, I suppose - they surely would have been contacted after he was murdered). And I have no doubt the security footage of the entrance of the building would have shown the police that John had been with Sherlock. So shooting CAM would have led to John becoming a murder suspect - along with Sherlock. Certainly not what Mary wanted to happen. I'm not defending Mary for shooting Sherlock, that was a bad choice. But shooting Magnussen wasn't an option any more in that situation.

I haven't really made up my mind about Mary either, I can't say that I loathe her. I share your impression that she didn't track Sherlock down alone with a gun to kill him. Shooting him the frist time was - according to her logic - necessary because Sherlock was being overly confident that her (platonic) love for him would prevent her from harming him, and therefore there was nothing else she could do to prevent him from letting John know who she really was. I think when she was tracking him down later, she brought the gun with her to make fully clear to him how far she was willing to go, but she hoped that Sherlock had learned his lesson and would agree not to tell John. As far as I understood, it took John several months to even talk to her again. At least Mary mentions "months of silence" before their conversation at Christmas. And I agree that this meant he hadn't been talking to her at all, and I dare think he probably moved in with Sherlock again for those months. The interesting thing is that everyone seems to judge Mary for killing people in the past , while we also clearly know that Sherlock hasn't spent the two years after Reichenbach drinking tea and just inviting Moriarty's people to reconsider. As you stated, Mary has given up her life as an assassin years before she met John and it seems that she really wanted to change and leave that life behind her. She became a nurse, a job where she's helping people, we've seen her being very nice and caring to her neighbour and given all the positive things Sherlock deduced about her in TEH, I think her will to change and make up for her past is actually genuine. And so is her love for John. Sherlock trusts her on that and I'm kind of willing to do so as well. The only thing that makes me dislike Mary is the fact that she took a nearly fatal shot at Sherlock. I can't forgive that as easily as Sherlock himself did, it might take me a few months just like John

I did see more than just a basis, it's just more subtle than tears, open crying and hugging. But isn't that what Sherlock's and John's relationship is all about? They don't need words to understand each other. So what did I see in this scene? (And so sorry if I keep repeating myself, I really should stop thinking about this episode, I know): a) The fact that John doesn't know what to say tells me that he's deeply upset about what has happened. He's not usually lost for words unless he's upset. b ) When Sherlock answers John's question about what's going to happen after those six months are over, and Sherlock sadly says "who knows", you can clearly see that John realizes that he might never see Sherlock again and has to fight really hard to keep control over his emotions and prevent himself from breaking down. c) Sherlock doesn't want to see John to lose control and start crying, so he helps him to regain his composure by making the "Sherlock is girl's name" joke. John's laugh after that remark is a mixture between a laugh and a suppressed sob, just listen to it with your headphones on. You can clearly hear that he's still heartbroken but thankful for Sherlock's attempt to lighten the mood. Sherlock himself is just happy that he's successfully prevented John from losing control and has succeeded to make him laugh for one last time. d) I don't see John's refusal to call his dauther Sherlock as a cold rejection of Sherlock, it's just John letting Sherlock know that there's no way there's ever going to be another Sherlock in his life, that no one's ever going to be able to replace his Sherlock. Or to let him know that he refuses to believe/accept that they will never meet again. e) When Sherlock stretches out his hand to say goodbye to John, you can clearly see John hesitating, considering if he should just go for the handshake, say something more or probably go for a hug. I think going for a hug would have caused both of them to break down and start crying - in front of other people (wand worst of all: Mycroft). Knowing them both, none of them would actually have wanted that, so the handshake was the most they could go for. To me, this scene was absolutely heartbreaking and beautiful, because there was so much going on between the lines and you could see that Sherlock and John understood each other without expressing everything into words. I prefer this subtle stuff to the sopey obvious stuff because it feels so much more real and it's actually much harder to act than the obvious. But to each their own, I can fully understand that some people wanted more from that scene. Although the John-Sherlock-Friendship shipper in me would have loved a hug and emotional breakdown as well, I definitly prefer the subtle, more real and in character stuff they went for. After all, I'm also thinking about another theory and interpretations of that scene and another explanation why John was confident that this would not be the last time he'd see Sherlock. But I'm going to keep that one for myself because to me, this would be the perfect opening for the next season and the more people speculating about that option, the less likely it will become that they're acutally going to write this . It's not a likely scenario anyway, but one can always dream the dream.

Wow, I'm glad I was able to restore at least a little bit of John's reputation here

I highly doubt that Martin Freeman's acting is to blame here. If the writers had wanted him to be more (openly) emotional in that scene, he would have been. I think we've had enough prove of his acting abilties before.

I totally agree with you there. To me his refusal to call his daughter Sherlock was his way of saying "there's only room for one Sherlock in my life and I refuse to believe that we're never going to meet again." To me he didn't seem chilly at all, just emotianally drained, at a loss for words and just very human. I see their seemingly joking interaction a) as a means to keep up the facade in front of Mycroft and the security people and as both of them trying to be strong for the other and not causing him more distress than that whole situation contains already. I just went back to watch that scene again and after Sherlock sadly answers John's question of what's going to happen after six months with "who knows", John's actually really close to losing it, trying to hide how upset he is by looking away for quite a long time and fighting hard to keep control when looking back at Sherlock. That's when Sherlock decides to lighten the mood with his "Sherlock is girl's name" joke and John's laugh after that actually just kills me. So desperate and yet relieved that Sherlock as given him something to hold on to, something to keep him from breaking apart right there. I think the acting is sublime on both ends there and it kills me emotionally much more than any soap-opra stile emotianl outburst that would have been very out of character for both John and Sherlock.

I absolutely respect your opinion as well, just enjoying the discussion. A absolutely agree that Mary would deserve going to prison for what she did in this episode. But if we are honest, so would Sherlock, not only for what he did in this episode but also - for example - for throwing that CIA agent out of the window several times in "A scandal in Belgravia" - just to mention one occasion. And yes, John should have stood up for Sherlock, but then again, how do you stand up for Sherlock Holmes if he has set his mind on not letting you do so? Sherlock usually gets what he wants from John, no matter how far he has to go. And Sherlock breaking his first and last ever vow? There was no way he was going to let that happen. John and Mary had been a couple for at least six months when Sherlock returned from the dead and probably had met before that. Seeing how affected by Sherlock's death John still was after two years, I don't want to know how he was before Mary was in the picture. So we can savely assume that he owes her a lot. John Watson wouldn't easily exclude someone he owes a lot to out of his life for good, as we have seen in the past. So even if he was willing to stand up for Sherlock (which he was in that scene in the flat), Sherlock had lots of arguments to make him reconsider. I don't know. I just don't think that John letting Sherlock know that he had just given up everything for nothing would have been a sign of friendship. It would be like: "Look, you idiot, all I wanted is to be with you and now, because of your stupid actions, we're separated forever. You've messed up bigime!" Would that be what you would want to hear from your best friend if you saw him/her for the last time or would you rather believe that you actually made a difference, sacrificed yourself for him/her to be happy? I know what I would prefer.

I don't think I have seen a "me and Mary, and then there's Sherlock" in this episode. I had the feeling John was ever so ready to chose Sherlock over Mary but Sherlock didn't want him to. Remember that Sherlocked drugged Mary and she passed out before they went to confront Magnussen? If it had been indeed "me and Mary, and then there's Sherlock", John would have stayed with his unconscious, pregnant wife. And yet he was more than willing to join Sherlock on his quest to confront Magnussen. That was classic "you and me against the rest of the world" stuff. And in the end, John must have known very well that Mycroft would never let him board that plane with Sherlock. He had no choice than to either stay with Mary (and his unborn child) or lose both his best friend and his wife, in short the two people who had been there for him when he thought he didn't have anything left to live for.

Where did he actually hurt Sherlock? Sherlock clearly didn't want John to give up on Mary, in the oppsite: He did everything he could to bring them back together. By boarding the plane with Sherlock, John would have negated everything that Sherlock had risked his life for. Sherlock had shot Magnussen so John and Mary could stay together. If John had boarded that plane with Sherlock, that would have been letting him know that everything he had risked and worked for in that episode had been in vain. I don't know if I would have preferred that ending, Sherlock knowing he had fought in vain for John's happiness . . . I think letting Sherlock believe that he had successfully restored John's happiness is the best gesture of good will that John could go for in that horrible situation. What would shielding Sherlock have been good for? There were too many guns pointed at them, there was absolutely nothing John could do there to protect Sherlock.

Hello Everybody! I'm new to this forum and after being quite shocked at all the hate John gets here after yesterday's episode, I'd really like to join the discussion. First of all I doubt that things would have turned out differently if John hadn't chosen to stay with Mary (I don't think he has fully forgiven her yet, he said that he was still very pissed at her. He has just chosen not to give up on her completely). Even if John had left Mary for good after what she did to Sherlock, Magnussen would still have had leverage over Sherlock and John. Because if Magnussen had made public who Mary was, there's no doubt she would either have been killed (more likely) or sent to prison for lifetime. And no matter how angry John was at her, he would never have forgiven himself for basically causing the mother of his unborn child and the women who had most likely been his only support during the "dark years" of Sherlocks's absence being shot or locked away for life. We know how loyal John is to the people who have been there for him during this darkest days, so I really don't see him just get over the guilt of basically not preventing her from dying/going to jail if he could have. So no matter of the choice John made, he would still have had to suffer (a lot) from Magnussen's leverage and Sherlock would still have wanted to prevent his suffering. Secondly, at least for me John hasn't lost his status as the moral compass. I just like to think that he desparatly wants to believe that his wife, the woman he has loved for the last two years and who has basically been there for him when he had reached a low point in his ilfe and who is the mother of his unborn child, hasn't killed anyone who didn't deserve to be killed. John himself has killed before (quite coldly and without any bad conscience afterwards), but only when he thought the killing was justified. I think by not reading Mary's file, John is trying to pretend and convince himself that Mary did the same and didn't do anything more immoral than himself. If he had actually read the file, found out that she had been killing innocent people and still would have loved and forgiven her, that would be a totally different matter. And by the way: She didn't kill Janine, she was hardly injured. She killed the security guard, but that could have been in self defence. And she tried to kill Magnussen, but isn't that what Sherlock did too, in the end? What Mary tried to do there was some kind of self defence against a criminal blackmailer. In the end, there remains "only" the shooting of Sherlock that can't be justified by any means, but Sherlock himself is doing his best to justify this for John. Thirdly, I don't really see where John has betrayed Sherlock. I think back in the flat when he had just found out about who Mary really was, he was quite ready to chose Sherlock over Mary for good. Note that it actually was Sherlock who prevented him from doing that and kept defending her, speaking in her defense and trying to convince John that she wasn't such a bad person as he - John - thought she was. And although we know how high John values Sherlocks opinion it still took him months to even talk to Mary again (as we learn in the scene in Sherlock's parent's house, John has been giving Mary the silent treating for months). So the forgivness didn't come easy to John and I dare think that it took Sherlock quite a lot of manipulation to even bring John to come to the point where he decided he wanted to give Mary a second chance (because I don't think he has fully forgiven her in that scene, he just let her know that he was giving her a second chance). Sherlock wanted John to not give up on Mary and we know a) how convincing and manipulative he can be and that John is loyal to a fault to Sherlock and finds it quite hard to say no to any of Sherlock's requests. Sherlock even brought Mary and John to his parents to manipulate John to speed up the "reunion". So given that this "reunion" was actually what Sherlock wanted, I don't really see how John has betrayed him. I have no doubt that if Sherlock hadn't been pushing John to forgive Mary, John probably wouldn't have made the effort to try and do so. And lastly, I don't really see what John could have done to save Sherlock after he had shot Magnussen. There where plenty of witnesses who had seen that Sherlock had taken that shot, so what could John have done? And should he have thanked Sherlock for doing what he had done? I don't actually think that John wants to be thankful for having Mary but in exchange losing Sherlock again. Sherlock thought that John would be better off with Mary than with him (and by that I mean as best friends and NOT as lovers), but I'm not sure if John actually agrees with that. So I don't think that thanking Sherlock for taking John's best friend away from him again would have made things any better. And as for John standing at the airport hand in hand with Mary: Sherlock had just basically given his live to protect John and Mary and their unborn child, in short, the Watson family. I don't think it would have made him feel better to see John turing his back on Mary and by that negating everything Sherlock had risked to save them. Wow, this post has become way longer than I expected. I just feel really sorry for both Sherlock AND John and I don't think John is such a bad person or has made any such heartless choices to deserve all those negative words he has been getting here. He actually IS the victim in this whole story and has had his whole live shattered to pieces once again (and so has Sherlock and I feel as bad for him as I do for John). And yes, I'm fully aware that we're all just talking about a TV-Series here and not about real people But it's fun doing that, isn't it?