bedelia1984

I'm sorry to hear that if it is really over. I do agree Gatiss seems more convinced than Moffat. They clearly could have more stories to tell, but at least they ended it (if they did) in a way that was respectful to all the characters and left them in a good place. Still hoping for a special though! In retrospect I enjoyed TAB as much as most of the official season 4.

By 'resent' are you referring to how John cheated on Mary? You sure 'resent' is the right word for that? Just because you cheat on someone doesn't necessarily mean you have hard feelings against them. One very small thing is when they talk about naming the baby and the name Mary and John said that he used to like it.

Honestly, I was at a loss as to how John chose many of his girlfriends, as even he seemed to have trouble telling them apart from each other at times. Maybe Mary was just a case of the aftermath of Sherlock's death causing John to seek out new companionship? I do think he had a greater bond and chemistry with Mary than any of the others, but then John was a bit of a disaster at relationships.

I guess I would look for something in the dialogue between those characters that suggests they see something in each other that is unique, that they make each other very happy, and also the sense that they have a really strong and lasting attraction? It isn't necessarily all in words, but in actions too. In TV terms, I suppose you would usually see people go to extraordinary lengths for each other. Isn't part of what you're describing what you sense as chemistry between the actors? That's the most subjective part of entertainment. Writers can write couples or relationships but if the actors don't have that it part between them it may never come across onscreen. I mean many a romantic comedy/dramatic movie has flopped based on whether actor chemistry exists. Not in the sense that what I had originally said was that the natural chemistry is good, but I don't think what happens between them in the script shows a very strong or passionate relationship. We just see proposal, coping with Sherlock's anxiety about the marriage, marriage, super-spy storyline, baby, death. The bigger moments we do see seem odd to me- John's proposal is interrupted, but suggests to me that his motivation is that he wants to nail things down because he's afraid of losing anyone else after Sherlock, and as for Mary shooting Sherlock, I'm not sure how we are supposed to view their relationship based on that?

I guess I would look for something in the dialogue between those characters that suggests they see something in each other that is unique, that they make each other very happy, and also the sense that they have a really strong and lasting attraction? It isn't necessarily all in words, but in actions too. In TV terms, I suppose you would usually see people go to extraordinary lengths for each other. Especially once John knew about Mary's past, what disappointed me was him forgiving her (which was the first time I was impressed by the fact that he loved her more than I had thought previously) and saying he didn't want to know, and then shortly after treating her like he resented her (in TST). Having said that, of course I accept that they did love each other because the show says so, it is just to me sometimes the relationship was a bit bland, which then made it (for me only, I'm sure most would disagree) a bit less tragic when it was over. Even though I liked Mary in the show a lot, though actually I found her scenes with Sherlock sometimes more fun than the ones she had with John. I wonder if it's because John is supposed to be someone who misses the obvious. That's part of his role in the show; to make Sherlock look more brilliant by not being able to notice things by himself. Not because he's stupid, but because he doesn't really bother, unless he's forced to. More immediately practical things are more important to him, perhaps, like being able to save a life; so he misses the things he doesn't consider as important? Yes, this must be part of it, he is there for contrast. I think we lost something this season in that as Sherlock became more emotionally aware sometimes John seemed even less so. Sometimes I think John deliberately won't face emotional conflict too. We also saw a bit of that in HLV when John seemed to be burying his head in the sand about how bad his marriage was, until Sherlock stepped in to try and help. And again in TLD when he can't face his guilt over the texting and takes out so much of his anger at himself on Sherlock. But I do hope they aren't totally compromising John's character just to make Sherlock look more emotionally evolved.

That's an interesting idea, I hadn't looked at it that way. Hm. Maybe. I wish they had addressed the fact that John never seemed happy in that life a bit more fully, the text messages make it clear he isn't happy, but why exactly? He has everything he wanted, a famlly, a steady job, a frisson of danger from having a dangerous wife. Maybe it's, as you said, that he could never fully accept her once he knew the truth. They needed to tell us more about John. I know the show is about Sherlock, but what they don't seem to get is that when they leave out important aspects of the other characters, people can't understand what is going on between that character and Sherlock, and that hurts our understanding of the main character. I too, do not understand why John couldn't be happy with the mix of normality and danger he found with Mary. But in season three as well, I found John was often finding reasons to feel affronted by the people in his life. In season 4, are we supposed to believe John was married to Mary, with a new child, but unhappy enough to make acerbic comments about not liking her anymore, and texting other women, and Mary was either oblivious or choosing not to comment? What were either of them getting out of this situation? I hate to say it, but I never saw anything in his relationship with Mary to say that they should marry or that they were the loves of each others lives. It just wasn't there for me, in the writing. Part of the problem might be we fell into an established relationship, due to the timing. Of course MF and AA have a natural chemistry, but to me the characters just seem quite familiar, like friends. I don't see any heat or passion between them. I actually don't know that the writers are good at that sort of thing- I think the main problem might be a lot of John's story was about his love life, and they prefer to avoid writing all that stuff, and possibly even can't do it. They're delighted to write him punching someone when everything about it goes to hell, though. I agree. And I also get the impression that both Sherlock and Irene are quite happy with their standing flirtation and maybe an occasional spicy rendezvous somewhere, who knows. Sherlock's emotional anchor is John, anyway. And John is also the person who most makes him want to live up to an ideal version of himself. But of course John doesn't understand that... He never has and never will, I think. Yes, to me too, Sherlock so often is doing so much to be a better man in John's eyes. Why does John think anyone needs a romantic partner to do that? For me, the best John is the one in TSOT who saves the soldier by focusing on the person at the heart of the case. yet so often in his personal life, he seems to miss the most important things about the people closest to him.

As well as anger, I wonder if there is a bit of jealousy there too? In the sense that, he sees Sherlock as someone who can love and be loved, and chooses not to? Whereas John seems to have quite a low opinion of himself, after the way he has treated Mary, followed by her death and possibly no longer feels capable of love or deserving of it? I don't like him not respecting Sherlock's choice to be alone, or saying it means he isn't complete. I'd like to see Sherlock happy with someone myself, but if he doesn't choose that, it doesn't mean he isn't a 'whole' person. I think part of the problem with the comparisons John tried to draw here is that Sherlock not being with Irene is like him not being 'fully' with Mary. But his problems with Mary happened because of the mistrust and potential infidelity between them. He's describing Sherlock as if he's turning down a chance to be in a relationship like John had with Mary. But, the truth is, Sherlock probably rather enjoys the fantasy of Irene, and the occasional suggestive text message. Whereas John didn't seem to enjoy much of his relationship with Mary, at all. Who would really want a marriage like that? Sherlock seems to accept Irene as she is and find a way that works to have her in his life (which is just to a very small extent). I don't think John ever really accepted his wife as she really was. It makes most of his advice ring hollow to me, because it comes from a place where John is not being honest with himself. I thought TLD and TST revealed a few unpleasant surprises about who John really is. Though, for me, this scene was marvellous. For me, it is more about who John allows Sherlock to show himself to be. Their friendship has proved to be beneficial for Sherlock, as portrayed on the show, but I'm not sure the same can always be said of John.

Ha! I also kind of wondered how he smelled at that point. And it is not something I wonder about in general. Really.

Is it possible to be attracted to a person and also really like/love another person? Well, yes I think it is, personally but my point was more that Sherlock at first sees it as just a physical attraction (to him) but when he sees the present he only sees it as more at that point. So when you were saying he seemed surprised- my point was that I think he was surprised at how deeply she felt for him, that he had considered her crush as superficial before. I think when viewed in that way, the writing for him, and how BC plays it makes more sense. Was that really appreciation? Remember Sherlock often went out to eat with John as well. He was using Molly to act as John. You could argue him inviting Molly to go get some chips with him afterwards was just another way for him to use Molly to fill in the void in his heart due to John's absence. This totally depends on your own point of view, and it is certainly possible to see it the way you describe too. The reason I saw it as a thank you was because of Sherlock describing it that way here: Though I do believe he wanted her company as well, I don't think it was just as a thank you. I don't know why Sherlock would say it was meant as a thank you if it wasn't, I'm not sure what he would gain from that?

The way I read that, is that Sherlock thinks he can use the fact she finds him attractive to get favours from her, in TBB. But, in Scandal, he talks more about somebody she really likes/ even loves, and I totally don't think Sherlock sees himself as the sort of person someone would have warm fuzzy feelings about. So, basically, up till Scandal, he thought she only wanted him for this body, but that moment of realisation in Scandal is that she actually likes him as a person and would like to have a relationship with him? I always thought Sherlock's plan was constructed after his conversation with Molly, and actually inspired by her? The main reason why is that he went away to think, after she made her offer. If he's been tricking her into offering to help him, wouldn't he have just seized the moment, and gone forward with his plan? And then also, why say to her later that she had been the part that mattered the most, because Moriarty hadn't expected her to help (which suggests to me Sherlock hadn't either, as in most things he and Moriarty have equal perception)? I couldn't really assume that the writers just want to make her seem important, because to me if the writers have their lead say a character is important, then she is, because their words are saying so. If he was lying to her, he would need a really good reason, and I can't think of any. Why would he let Molly risk so much in helping him, if he didn't really need her to? Here is the original dialogue from HLV, it is from the shooting script, not the episode. The BBC have it on their writer's room page I think if you fancy a download of it. MOLLY: Clean? (She rounds on Sherlock.) MOLLY: What do you want me to tell them? (He fixes her with a look.) SHERLOCK: Whatever you feel you ought to tell them. MOLLY: Oh, I see! You give me the big dark eyes, and the deep, deep voice, and I’m supposed to lie for you. He did show appreciation, in my view, when he asked her if she wanted to go for chips with him afterwards. I know it might seem like nothing coming from most people, but it is actually very rare for Sherlock to suggest anything social with anybody apart from John, for any reason. Even Irene's repeated invitations to dinner get declined. Yes, this is a thing, Benedict's character influencing Sherlock's. Though also, I do think chemistry is kind of an unpredicatble beast of it's own too- I think they saw that in the first scene in Study in Pink, unexpectedly, and that's what kept Louise in the show. They are also basing Sherlock off an original character who was fundamentally decent, so there is that, too. Supposedly Moffat said TAB was about Sherlock beating himself up about how he treats the women in his life but there is no change in his behavior towards women in season 4 so I don't think anything will be addressed in a small or significant way after the ILY scene. I actually think he was better this season? I didn't see him batting his eyelashes to get privileges in the Morgue or getting engaged to get into CAM's office... Now admittedly, the bar had been set appallingly low...

And don't forget the 'feminists' with the pointy hats in TAB! Ahem. Though I'm not sure anyone here would suggest Moffat is adept at writing women respectfully. I think most of us do give him points for effort, though.

How would you describe the early scene where he compliments her new hairstyle in The Blind Banker? To me, in the early episodes he will use her crush to manipulate her, in order to get access to the morgue etc. He seems pretty well-practiced at it, in fact, so i would see it as something he does more than we are shown onscreen. Sherlock isn't like himself at all in that scene, he's playing a part, like he is with Janine in HLV. Did the dynamic between Sherlock and Molly really change? I thought Molly was always mostly tolerant of Sherlock's behaviour but resorted to a more no-nonsense when he went too far (such as his deduction of her during Christmas in A Scandal in Belgravia). I always thought Sherlock's Mind Palace, especially in Season 3, reflected past events in his life. This is how real Mind Palaces work. You use visual memories of previous places, events etc in order to recall important information. In The Sign of Three, Sherlock's Mind Palace was a court room because that's how he saw himself when he was interrogating those 4 ladies on the Mayfly man. In His Last Vow, Sherlock's Mind Palace had Molly, Mycroft, Anderson and Moriarty in it. The reason for this is because he was dying after getting shot so his Mind Palace reflected his memory of almost dying previously. The last time Sherlock almost died was in The Reichenbach Fall. Moriarty's plan was to kill him. Anderson fell for it. Sherlock employed Mycroft and Molly's help to survive. That's why I believe only those 4 characters appeared in Sherlock's Mind Palace after he got shot. We didn't see John in the Mind Palace because John wasn't part of the plan. For me, her reaction is more hurt than no-nonsense in Scandal. The scene that really altered their relationship was in TRF, when she was the only person who saw that he was afraid he was going to die- which made Sherlock realise that she had more understanding of him than he realised. The changes that follow include the fact we don't see him flirt with Molly for his own gain again after this. We also see Molly begin to stand up for herself with him from this point on. There is a two year gap before TEH, but when they spend time together there, he is asking her to work with him, at a level that John used too, which is a show of respect, and he also asks her to hang out after the case as well. To me, this is when they are really friends, whereas before TRF she was just someone with a crush on him, whom he was ready to manipulate. They cut the line from HLV where Molly said outright that she knew he had flirted with her in the past to get around her, but they do have John say that Molly saw through his BS years ago, which to me is an acknowledgement of the change that took place. By the time Molly slaps him in HLV, things are not the same between them, which concludes the arc that began in TRF. I can see why that aspect is troublesome, but if the show comes back, I do believe it will be addressed somehow. I'm more confident that we'll see it in nuances of the performances than in the dialogue, but I do have hopes for the dialogue!

I'm on the fence about his characterisation of her in HLV. Partly because the shooting script had her written as even more pathetic than usual (crowding Tom, Sherlock needing his space from her too...), and I'm beginning to think Stephen is the one who is actually getting what for, from Sue, Mark and everyone else at the read-throughs, and having to man up and improve on his portrayal of Molly at that stage, rather than during the part he's doing by himself. Then, also, because I find it a bit worrying that yet again the Moffat version of an empowered female is one who's engaging in an act of physical dominance, which seems a bit... icky. Please, don't make her more like Irene so she can be 'interesting', Moffat, as one Irene is already enough, thanks! I really liked the way Molly was used in the Mind Palace, so kudos for that, certainly. ETA: Just about Sherlock respecting Molly's opinion- this is what I find interesting about the Sherlock/ Molly relationship- I think Sherlock is more respectful to her than the writer is, in this episode, and other places too. Which makes me like Sherlock more, of course, and then wonder how he's managed to do it. Part of it is most certainly the acting, though. As I think you mentioned on the other thread, Benedict's acting adds all sorts of layers, enriching the script and sometimes out-right embellishing it.

I agree about Molly needing to be more assertive, but that also got me thinking about how I feel the writing for her, and her levels of assertiveness are up and down in different episodes, and the fact I think Gatiss and Moffat have differing approaches to the character in general. We were chatting about the writers portrayal of women over in TFP thread, but I wanted to talk about the way they differ when it comes to portraying Molly throughout the series, so I thought I'd post that part of my thoughts over here: You can see it (Gatiss and Moffat's differing approaches to writing a female character) the most with Molly. I personally think both Gatiss (in The Empty Hearse, The Great Game and TST) and Steve Thomspon (in TRF) wrote Molly as a much more dynamic character, than in pretty much any of Moffat's solo-written episodes, especially Scandal, and her low profile appearance in TLD. She seems more put down and pushed to the side in Moffat's episodes, whereas Gatiss finds all this cool stuff for Molly to do- dating Moriarty, investigating a crime, and while she's mostly unseen in TST, when we do see her she's tough with Sherlock, whereas by TLD she's just so worn-down, and only has the boring hand-wringing at what a bad boy Sherlock has been to do. TRF was also just an amazing episode for Molly, when she showed a lot of perception and strength as a character. I wonder has Moffat ever written a strong moment for her, on her own, which I'm not recalling? I couldn't count the Christmas party scene as the only show of strength had to be written in by the actress herself. I agree about her not owing him friendship, but they omitted to explain why or how they moved on from the TFP awkwardness, so it is frustratingly impossible for us as viewers to really know whether Molly is actually happy in that scene or pretending- it looks genuine to me? If she is, then whatever the reason, that seems a pretty good motivation to keep the friendship going. What I didn't like about the lead in to the 'I love you' scene was that it seemed like she was sitting around her flat alone and miserable. I really want to believe that had nothing to do with Sherlock, because if it did I would say it probably was time for Molly to leave and get over him for good.

I don't think Moffat is a misogynist either, I just find his characterisation of women a bit warped, as if it is somehow telling me disturbing things about his psyche that I'd rather not know. I also think Moffat and Gatiss have quite different approaches to writing the female characters, you can't really tar them both with the same brush. I had a point here about Molly, but will take it to the Molly thread, where it may prove more apt. I liked both Eurus and Mary as characters, again I agree with what most people are saying about how they were made a bit too out-of-this-world super, but then that was a problem with the whole season, the plot, everything, and not just the women.

Yes, and with London prices, not many people would have a spare bedroom in a flat, I imagine. He is so manipulative, if this is the case. And, if it is the same flat as in TFP, I bet the bedroom is as nice as the kitchen, too. He just doesn't deserve it. There's also something ungentlemanly about the whole thing. I would have pictured Mycroft and Sherlock as being brought up to treat women a certain way- their mother doesn't seem like she'd let them away with treating women poorly. And yet, there is Mycroft's treatment of Mrs. Hudson, and Sherlock possibly turning Molly out of her own bed. Frankly, I expect better manners from both of them.

There is something sort of incestuous about that aspect, isn't there? That error you mentioned happens to me sometimes too. Thanks for the exact lines. I was glad they cut it, actually, because to me it read as if Molly is constantly crowding men- because she says Sherlock borrows her bedroom when he 'needs space' and then says the same thing about Tom- only the reverse, he's out of her life because he needs it. But actually, your idea that Tom realised she wasn't over Sherlock seems spot on. I always thought it was rude and mean of Molly to stab him with that fork or whatever it was at the wedding- even if she did say something really dim. I get it was mostly for comic effect, but if she was that embarrassed by him, she shouldn't have been dating him from the beginning. I saw it more as him using her, though I do agree she would have liked Sherlock to be jealous, certainly. I can imagine Jim being quite a fun date. I don't think Molly would seek out someone like him, but I could imagine her being really flattered by his interest and enjoying his company. I don't believe that she was ever in love with him, or would have expected him to love her- but it still wouldn't be nice to be told he was gay. Yes, I think part of the reason I considered them changing the lines is because the whole dynamic of Molly and Sherlock's relationship changes some time in Season 3, and she takes on a more 'no-nonsense' approach with him by HLV, and is seen that way in the mind palace, so I thought they might have reflected that by making her seem a little bit less downtrodden. Though, now I think of it, maybe the fact she was letting Sherlock stay in her bedroom could have been a problem for her relationship too. She confesses that in HLV, but it seems as if the 'bolthole' situation predates her breakup? I wouldn't be too crazy about my significant other giving their bedroom over to a friend, especially one they had a crush on for years. It seems such an odd situation. Was she then sleeping in the spare room? Why couldn't Sherlock just use the spare room, he's not that fussy where he sleeps usually, is he? Was Tom ever there, also? I'm picturing some sort of alternate universe episode of 'Three's a crowd' now.

She seemed kind of jealous of Janine in TSOT, and that was before she was dating Sherlock, even? I would say the dating must have been really hard for her to deal with. Especially when he had told her that he was a sociopath, basically given her the impression that he would never have a relationship with anyone, not long before. Plus, there were the newspaper articles, which made the relationship with Janine out to be way more than it was. It seems like the writers changed the reason Tom and Molly broke up mid season, and never told us what it was anyway. I read the shooting script for HLV and in it, it sounds like Tom asked Molly for space. I think they removed the line from the final edit? The way the season reads, it seems more like Molly was comparing him unfavourably to Sherlock in TSOT and then she broke up with him? But they don't specify. I thought Molly was quite taken with Jim initially, until Sherlock pointed out how he was gay. I think Jim posted on her blog too- you know the side blog that the show used to have for Molly? Something about them watching Glee together at her place. I could have even seen them being friends after the break up, if not for the whole criminal psychopath thing.

Moving in a slightly lateral direction here, but if Sherlock ever was with Molly, in that way, what would he make of her past relationship with Moriarty? Did people ever reach a consensus as to whether Molly and Moriarty slept together? I always wonder how that Molly/ Moriarty break-up went. I just can't picture the wording, or the scenario, or how Moriarty would react. His character seemed like quite a touchy-feely guy, so I would picture him being sort of emotional, I suppose.

My favourite observation that she made in the article was the one about how in season one he only knew a few words in German, and then in later seasons was fluent in Serbian. That's what the change was- the ascent into super-Sherlock. I didn't really agree with all her criticism of their handling of Johnlock- I suspect the creators didn't have total say over the trailers, and also thought the way John is shown behind him sort of ruled out the John/ Sherlock 'I love you'. But, then again, I do agree the show really suffered from the fact the two weren't onscreen together as much, or at least it felt that way? They had a beautiful scene together in TLD, but it was late coming, and a lot of TFP felt too artificial to be satisfying in terms of their friendship. Again with the extremes... I didn't really need to know what Sherlock would do when asked to shoot John and Mycroft. I already knew he loved both of them, I didn't need TFP's high stakes drama to tell me that. On the other hand, I would have loved to have scene more normal, ordinary human moments between John and Sherlock, and all the characters really. Maybe a scene between John and Mrs. Hudson, after Mary died? Or, seeing as she already has a small scene with Sherlock, pretty much anything with Molly, or Lestrade, would have been lovely.

Even though I'm guilty of being pleased by some of the nods they give to the fans in episodes like The Empty Hearse, and almost all of the Abominable Bride, I do wonder what sort of show Sherlock would have been if they had made it in its entirety in some kind of bubble, without the engagement of the fans.

Yes, I agree Amanda was good casting. In retrospect, I think it was extra smart because the writers seem to struggle a bit with writing women, so ready-made chemistry was really important for Mary. And, Ben's parents are really charming- though I almost wish they would have given them a little bit more- the parents are so interesting and we get told so little, and his parents are experienced professionals too- I believe they could do more. Not take over, or anything, but even one big scene would be nice. I felt like we got these little shards like the mother calling Sherlock 'the adult'- with no explanation as to why. I think it looks that way because it is that way. They got away with it because there wasn't a huge amount of acting in the part. But they probably also limited what they could be inspired to do with the young Sherlock in that episode. The part could have also be a nice chance for a child actor who'd been working hard and proved themselves in other roles too. It would be unusual for a show like Sherlock to cast an inexperienced actor in such a role, unless they were really perfect for it or exceptionally gifted as a performer.

Yeah, he could have played Archie. I just don't know if he would have been able to play the mischievous, dark side of that character so well as the kid they originally cast. Moffat's as good as a lot of child actors I've seen, but I thought the kid playing Archie just seemed like more of a natural? In general, I'm not really keen on the idea of family members being cast on shows, so I'm a bit skeptical whether they would have cast the boy as Sherlock if he wasn't related to Moffat.

I do think Archie would have made a nice Sherlock. In total honesty, I wouldn't have put Moffat's son in either role- because I don't think he has the right qualities for either part, though he does fine in the role he was given.

Yes, I thought that the missing parts where his friends would have intervened- or at least tried to do so, were omitted to make way for plot. A problem with this whole season, actually, IMO, was too many basic human moments were missing, in order to make way for the huge amount of story they had to cover. I did also feel it was semi-realistic that the aftermath of Mary's death left everyone a bit shell-shocked, blaming themselves, wounded, unsure and running for cover. We saw that Molly wasn't at her best at the end of TST, but even Mycroft and Lestrade probably didn't feel too good about the way that messy death scene went down. I do think in an event like that where a lot of people feel some (mostly) misplaced guilt, people can tend to connect less, just because it is harder to bridge that gap between where everyone is emotionally and where they expected to be/ wish they were. And then, of course Sherlock goes on drugs- and I agree his loved ones should want to help him, and even think they did try (we just didn't see it), but there might have been a part of them wishing that he wouldn't make a really bad time even worse for everyone.